About Aviendha's visions

[False Dragon1991]

I cannot believe that the Seanchan are portrayed as the victims in that war. They've taken Aeil wise ones and have made no effort to try to mollify their feelings. This is a great and unforgivable crime. The Aeil are supposed to just accept this? No country on earth would accept hundreds of its people being enslaved. I get that they want to make it so that the Aeil stubbornness leads to their genocide and BTW, seriously, genocide. Matt is a completely pathetic human being if he failed that resoundingly to change anything about the Seanchan. I really do not understand the authors conviction that the best response to the Seanchan is to accept them and not provoke them. Why encourage appeasement?  

 

Incidentally this vision pretty much confirms that the Seanchan do not drop their position on damane and the adam; unless you take the fact that the Seanchan don't have access to gunpowder initially to indicate Matt not hooking up with Tuon. IMO the term "raven empire" implies otherwise.  

 

Such a victory at a stroke completely demolishes and undermines all the hard work our heroes made during the series. Apparently Matt does nothing to change anything and the Seanchan just win coz Seanchan=over-powered so nothing our heroes did mattered? Perrin improving the Two Rivers, Rands efforts to leave a better world with all these new Kings and a place for Ashamen to learn (and really damane are not a match for ashaman), Elaynes efforts to unite Andor and Cairhein; Egwene restoring the White Tower and establishing all these links with channelers. But no, obviously the Seanchan are the most important thing going on and all their achievements would have a FAR greater lasting impact than our heroes.  The favoritism towards this faction who are better in every single way is just plain wrong. 

 

Also, as I said before but with feeling, this has destroyed Matt as a character for me. 

[Plato]

Oh this topic again. 

 

Isn't it consensus in the WoT community that Avi's visions are merely cautions of what could happen, and should not be taken as what will actually happen?  Also Mat and Tuon are supposed to go on adventure reclaiming Seanchan post Last Battle.  So Mat might have less to do with the development of the Seanchan culture on the Randland continent then you might think.

 

EDIT: also omg! this has so whole thread is one big spoiler and needs to be moved!

[False Dragon1991]

Its not Mem of Light. Also, like with Mins visions its a given that her visions can't be fulfilled if the DO wins.

 

If Matt changed anything at the core of the Seanchan empire then he would by extension change those in Randland. He is 100% responsible for what the Seanchan do since he is in a position to change things. The end result being his descendants commiting genocide, putting the descendants of all the other heroes and his friends to the sword is beyond an abysmal failure. All because he won't stand up to Tuon or worse agrees with her or trivializes these issues? Nope, sorry, Matt died as a character for me here.

 

As I said, it just trivializes a lot of what we saw the heroes struggle to accomplish by simply saying "Nope, Seanchan are still stronger than all of them put together." as if they're the most important thing in the world to come out of the Last Battle and our heroes struggles for a better world weren't. What a way to make it seem like they don't matter. 

 

Since I assume Aviendha is meant to take corrective action to prevent this future I take this to mean that this is a very likely future and not a worst case scenario. One Aviendha averts and not one she could jsut rest on her laurals to avoid.

 

But again, its this whole Seanchan are better than everyone at everything which just bothers me. Having a mary sue faction in the series is really annoying. I mean damane defeating the ashaman? Male channelers? That is downright stupid given what we are told about men being much stronger than women in destruction weaves. With linked circles with female channelers they should annihilate damane. But no, the plot needs to reward the Seanchan and give everything to them on a plate. We were living in fear of these people breaking the world again, but NO, the Seanchan can easily just walk over the ashamen...

[Suttree]

Its not Mem of Light. Also, like with Mins visions its a given that her visions can't be fulfilled if the DO wins.

 

They aren't the same as Min's visions. All that was is one possible future, one that Avi works to change.

[False Dragon1991]

I highly doubt that any future could escape the swirl of a taverrn. Almost by definition all possible futures would have accounted for Matts impact and legacy. Well, the Seanchan are commiting genocide and murdering children; which is actually even more evil than they were before. Hard as that is to believe. 

[Suttree]

I'm not sure what you mean by the ta'veren part. Again it was only one possible future, this has been confirmed. Further as the vision showed the Aiel started things going in that direction.

 

AMoL Spoiler

 

Avi and the Aiel in finding a role for the future by taking on the role of peacekeepers have already averted it.

 

[Plato]

I highly doubt that any future could escape the swirl of a taverrn. Almost by definition all possible futures would have accounted for Matts impact and legacy. Well, the Seanchan are commiting genocide and murdering children; which is actually even more evil than they were before. Hard as that is to believe. 

 

Hmmm... an organized military gunning down and killing off the "savage" natives... Where have I heard this before?

[False Dragon1991]

I mean Matts sister can channel. Tuon can use an adam so can learn to channel. The odds of them having a child with the ability innate are pretty high. But really, Matt is a moral coward if he continues to refuse to challenge his wife on her ignorance and fascist mentality. I get that Matt is the joker character. But there are limits. This is a serious matter and the consequences of him failing to do this, as indicated by the vision, are too severe to be taken lightly. 

 

By the taverrn part I mean that any changes made by Matt would be near certain in every possible future and one of those likely changes would be him changing the character of the Seanchan empire. So this vision proves that he fails to do any such thing. It might be an alternate future where he is killed prematurely or maybe even doesn't reunite with Tuon for long; the fact they don't have gunpowder weapons initially by the line "they acquired the Andoran siege weapons" could suggest this. But thats reading too much into it. If a taverrn couldn't have changed the Seanchan then clearly it doesn't happen.

[Suttree]

By the taverrn part I mean that any changes made by Matt would be near certain in every possible future and one of those likely changes would be him changing the character of the Seanchan empire. So this vision proves that he fails to do any such thing.

 

Leaving aside the faulty assumptions above for now, just want to point out two things.

1. That isn't how being ta'veren works. It is all about what the pattern needs, not the individual.

 

2. People are not necesarily ta'veren for their entire lives.

 

 

Interview: Jul, 2002

COT: 'Glimmers' Ebook Q&A (Verbatim)

 

.... 

 

no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

[False Dragon1991]

So in another world the Seanchan would change or actually be beaten and Aviendha only sees the worst case scenario in order to warn her?

 

However, I don't like that this vision trivialises the great effort we've seen all of the other characters put into a better world and makes it all count for nothing; for no reason other than emphasising that Seanchan are OP. We have one or two very minor Seanchan POV characters. It is fundamentally not their story and their only role is to provide a difficulty in the lead up to the last battle and provide more cannon fodder. Once that role has been fulfilled there is no reason to let this uber factions existence detract from the achievements of all the heroes who have had a vast amount of chapters dedicated to their struggles. 

 

I mean, beating the Ashaman?  That's just silly. Male channelers are much stronger than female ones who cannot link and this is stressed several times. When Rand does use the Ashaman, he annialates their damane.in battle. So, why should the Seanchan be able to casually walk over them? Never mind that fighting a united Randland with access to gunpowder weapons and the Aeil should have been too much for the Seanchan. Again, we have them shown as having limitless resources. If they are so important and powerful in the plot then why is their story the least important? I really don't know what point the author was making in having a faction with the auto-win option trounce all the heroes efforts and that the only way to deal with them is to meekly accept their domination? What kind of point is that? JUst give up or you will get stomped on by a more powerful people? Goes completely against the series emphasis on standing up for whats right and against the Dark One. Frankly Tuon and others express exactly the same ideals and values as the forsaken or other human agents of the dark one. This might just be the author being cute with BDSM undertones but I find it stupid that we're meant to hate the chosen for what they do and think about the world but its meant to be an evil we accept in the Seanchan as par tof our heroes maturity? Sorry, don't, buy it. The Seanchan are scum, unrepentantly so and whilst other factions like the Whitecloaks have their ideals thoroughly reshaped, they remain unchanged without any adverse effect. IMO, if they refuse to change they should have been destroyed and made an example of by the plot of what happens if you don't drop ignorance for the general good.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think you miss the entire point of the scene because you are too busy hating the Seanchan. 

 

It's not even about the Seanchan, it's about the Aiel. The Seanchan in the vision are only a tool - and considering your reaction, and how it would be 10x worse for Aviendha, an effective one - to expose the weakness of the Aiel so Aviendha can fix it. 

 

The vision was never meant to be a true vision. If you look, you'll see that it is a worst case scenario. Virtually all the main characters would be dead 20 years after the Last Battle - which seems very unlikely as a great deal of them are channelers. Tuon and Mat would both be dead. The old empress is assassinated and Mat virtually disappears. Perrin is nowhere. Nynaeve, Elayne Egwene and Aviendha are all dead or disappeared. 

 

Unlike Min's viewings or fortellings, this is a full view of the future, with very specific sequences of events. Min can say "this person will die by fire" but it doesn't say how and why they do so. They might try to avoid all fire, but a building will catch alight and kill them. 

 

In this future, the causes are all known. It is a simple thing to change it. The most simple would be for Aviendha to either a) not have children, or, if she finds out she is pregnant b) kill herself. 

 

I'm not suggesting this is the only way to avoid the future. There are a myriad of options - some very obvious and easy to remedy - which can be taken to prevent this future. 

 

The vision IS meant to be heart-breaking. We are meant to fear that the Seanchan will conquer the world. But you miss the point of what it is trying to convey.

[clutzyninja]

A post about hating Seanchan by False Dragon?  That's weird.

[False Dragon1991]

Yes. I guess its a worst case scenario.

 

I do get the message. Aviendha sees that the Aeil trying to go on as they have as this warrior society leads them down the road to extinction becuase they've already fulfilled their purpose and the old ways no longer serve. Hence it is Aviendhas role as the hero to find a new way for her people and a new purpose. Which is why she went to Rhudean in the first place. 

 

I simply dislike the use of the Seanchan and the repeated insistence that they are better and bigger than everyone else so that they could conquer all the other factions. It just reeks of mary sue bs. I don't really see the point of spending a dozen books building up our heroes and their efforts to gather armies and leave a better world. Yet everything is left hanging on the uber faction who has a bigger army than everyone else but together, better channelers and more of them. They have no weaknesses and if they have enough forces that they could fight the Last Battle by themselves so long as Rand and Callandor are with them then it just makes the heroes stories kind of pointless. I really don't see how the book is going to pull this iff in Mem of Light. Either the Seanchan suddenly become a lot weaker in the Last Battle to emphasise our heroes factions when really given whats known they should be 70% of the force there. Alternatively, they are that big a proportion in which case it renders all of the hard work of our heroes achieved over the novels moot. Who cares if Egwene brings a few hundred Aes Sedai, or if Rand has hundreds of Ashaman if the Seanchan have thousands of damane? Who cares if Matt has the Red band, Perrin has his army, Elayne has this huge kingdom, the Borderlanders and Whitecloaks if the Seanchan armies are many times bigger and better quality? If the Seanchan are a big enough threat to conquer all of the world then it follows that they are stronger than all of the other forces in Randland, which Avi and Rands earlier visions ascertain then why bother building up other factions or put so much emphasis on them? 

 

I mean, seriously, name one weakness of the Seanchan?

[False Dragon1991]

double post edit

[Barid Bel Medar]

The Seanchan are good compared to the people of Rand's homeland. 

 

The Seanchan haven't been ravaged by the Shadow for all that time and have had time to build in relative peace. 

 

The nations of this continent are weak and disorganised. The White Tower is broken and the Asha'man still new. 

 

They are like the Roman legions against the Germanic tribes. 

 

They could be defeated if everyone united against them. If the White and Black Towers, Andor, Cairhrien, Tear Illian Borderlands and Aiel united under Rand or someone else, they could destroy the Seanchan easily.

 

The vision is very selective in how the future plays out. They don't all gang up and lose to the Seanchan. They each act independently and fall separately. 

 

As for the Shadow, the Seanchan would lose to the Shadow. They may be good compared to a fractured and weakened - by the Shadow - bunch of nations, but not even they can win against the Shadow. 

 

Before quoting the skirmish with Tylee, it doesn't even compare. 

 

The Seanchan may be good soldiers, but good soldiers aren't enough to win this war. The various factions - the Towers, Andor, Rand's nations, Aiel - they are all far more important in the fight against the Shadow than the Seanchan. You could say that - while they may not be as good against Seanchan- they were made to fight the Shadow. 

 

The Seanchan are like heavy cavalry - the other nations are like assassins. 

[Mr Ares]

I mean, beating the Ashaman?  That's just silly. Male channelers are much stronger than female ones who cannot link and this is stressed several times.

It is also stressed several times that strength alone is not the only factor. That women, while on average weaker than men, can do everything men can and to the same degree - their greater dexterity makes up for their lesser strength. So how is it silly? When the Asha'man and damane fought in PoD, the Asha'man had the advantage of Traveling. Now the Seanchan can Travel as well, so the advantage isn't so pronounced.

[False Dragon1991]

Thats not really a weakness to say you can't fight the apocalypse. It still comes down to saying they are just better than everyone and have more of everything. There isn't a single army (indeed there are few armies in the world today) that could lose 150,000 soldiers in a day without any noticeable effect. 

 

I disagree with you on the good soldiers vs assasians. That might work for the Aes Sedai but it doesn't work for the armies our people have been gathering. This is a case of getting enough blunt force to offset the armies of shadowspawn. The books tell us that the Seanchan have many times more blunt force than any other faction. So, why bother spending whole books detailing our heroes gaining all this strength if its just a sliver compared to the Seanchan? If you have a plot built around our heroes achievements before the Last Battle then its nonesense to have those achievements trivialized by having the plot produce a faction many times more powerful than all of them put together from the very beginning of the story.  

 

Look, the shadow has weaknesses and these are clearly laid out to us. The chosen are arrogant, divided and over confident of their abilities; under-estimating our heroes. A lesson they never learn. Indeed by the end they are almost a bit of a joke. The shadow has to operate for most of the time in the shadows and can't use blunt force to achieve its objectives for most of the series but on manipulation. Such manipulation frequently fails because they are fighting fate itself. Trollocs lack intelligence and only in overwhelming numbers can they achieve anything. The shadow cannot teleport its soldiers for the most part and has to rely on other means. Indeed the shadow has relatively few channelers at all. Indeed, we can easily count the failures of the shadow and see where they have taken considerable setbacks. Losing their influence over the Seanchan. Several chosen killed and influence over successive nations lost. 

 

Compare this to the Seanchan. Well-led, never make the same mistake twice, better soldiers and more of them, better channlers and more of them. Access to creatures who are better than shadowspawn. Not a single weakness. They have access to all the important weaves and have now learned travelling which eliminates the single disadvantage they had. That is the definition of a mary sue faction. As pointed out above, even the villains of the series have some weaknesses to offset overwhelming strength. The Seanchan have absolutely none. This is not believable and is bad writing since the plot just gives all this power and abilities to them. Whilst we see the shadow take major setbacks the Seanchan never take a single permanent setback. They just come back with more men and achieve their objectives anyway. Did the shadow simply send another Suroth or get another Chosen to murder Tuon? No they did not. Obviously the shadow isn't going to try kill its number one enemy on Randland. Tuon gets surrounded in plot armour as soon as she becomes Empress.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It's not that I disagree with the things you point out, I just think you are looking at them from the wrong perspective. 

 

As for that battle where they lost 150 k in one day... That is more of a "doesn't make sense" than any actual power of the Seanchan. It's simply not accurate, as you pointed out. 

 

Not exactly a spoiler, but about aMoL. 

 

This is even more evident in aMoL where the numbers don't make sense in the slightest. (All the armies)

 

 

Where you see the Seanchan as apparently glorified monsters who could conquer the world and beat the Shadow, it is in fact the opposite. 

 

The Seanchan were created by the Shadow, and are the Shadow's number one ally - even if they don't know it. 

 

They are doing nothing but helping the Shadow with their actions. 

 

There are two options for Rand. Try and fight and destroy them completely, or turn them into a weapon against the Shadow. 

 

The Seanchan - for all their terrible practises - are not Darkfriends, and are redeemable.

 

Make no mistake, the Seanchan are intended to be a negative force that Rand needs to deal with, at no point are they meant to be misunderstood heroes. They are shown to be human to show that they are redeemable, not that they are actually good. 

 

The Seanchan are unable to win against the Shadow, their empire is a lie and their homeland lies in ruins. Being good soldiers is all they have left. 

[Yamezt]

Yes. I guess its a worst case scenario.

 

I do get the message. Aviendha sees that the Aeil trying to go on as they have as this warrior society leads them down the road to extinction becuase they've already fulfilled their purpose and the old ways no longer serve. Hence it is Aviendhas role as the hero to find a new way for her people and a new purpose. Which is why she went to Rhudean in the first place. 

 

I simply dislike the use of the Seanchan and the repeated insistence that they are better and bigger than everyone else so that they could conquer all the other factions. It just reeks of mary sue bs. I don't really see the point of spending a dozen books building up our heroes and their efforts to gather armies and leave a better world. Yet everything is left hanging on the uber faction who has a bigger army than everyone else but together, better channelers and more of them. They have no weaknesses and if they have enough forces that they could fight the Last Battle by themselves so long as Rand and Callandor are with them then it just makes the heroes stories kind of pointless. I really don't see how the book is going to pull this iff in Mem of Light. Either the Seanchan suddenly become a lot weaker in the Last Battle to emphasise our heroes factions when really given whats known they should be 70% of the force there. Alternatively, they are that big a proportion in which case it renders all of the hard work of our heroes achieved over the novels moot. Who cares if Egwene brings a few hundred Aes Sedai, or if Rand has hundreds of Ashaman if the Seanchan have thousands of damane? Who cares if Matt has the Red band, Perrin has his army, Elayne has this huge kingdom, the Borderlanders and Whitecloaks if the Seanchan armies are many times bigger and better quality? If the Seanchan are a big enough threat to conquer all of the world then it follows that they are stronger than all of the other forces in Randland, which Avi and Rands earlier visions ascertain then why bother building up other factions or put so much emphasis on them? 

 

I mean, seriously, name one weakness of the Seanchan?

1 weakness? 1 forsaken is able to throw the entire continent of Seanchan into revolt.

 

Randland continent seemed to have fared pretty well in comparison with multiple forsaken working there (and all main characters are from there). I guess you only need 1 AS/Asha'man with the scruples of Semi to do it one more time. *shrug* As far as we know, only Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve, Leane and Siuan (at the point you are reading) would (possibly) even be aware of weaves to allow them to assassinate the blood (mask of mirrors, inverted/reversed flows & hiding one's ability).

[Agitel]

Seanchan are neither Mary Sue (which implies always being right and admired with no effort, no mistakes, everyone seeing things your way once you talk to them) or displayed as sympathetic by the author. Many cultures had slavery into even more modern times than those in WoT. It was repulsive, but that doesn't make everything about those nations irredeemable.

 

Anyway, Jordan intended on writing additional novels that take place fifteen years after A Memory of Light, but details are sparse. We only know they concern Mat and Perrin. It seems possible that Jordan may have addressed issues with Seanchan. However, the Wheel turns, and I see no reason why everything has to be perfect after the Last Battle. Life goes on, and things will change. Humanity is a mix of light and dark.

[Mr Ares]

Compare this to the Seanchan. Well-led, never make the same mistake twice, better soldiers and more of them, better channlers and more of them. Access to creatures who are better than shadowspawn. Not a single weakness. They have access to all the important weaves and have now learned travelling which eliminates the single disadvantage they had. That is the definition of a mary sue faction.

No it isn't. Not least because the term "Mary Sue" is so watered down as to be practically meaningless. Well led, never make the same mistake twice, better soldiers, better channelers in one, specific limited aspect of channeling - these are merely signs of competence. As for numbers, they have a continent spanning empire that hasn't suffered the same population decline as the Westlands. They have creatures that are useful, but to say they are "better" than Shadowspawn is a statement so vague as to be meaningless. Better in what respect? They are not overly idealised, they are not shown to be perfect, they are not shown to be unbeatable, they are merely shown to be a dangerous foe, and one that is blind to how they have been bent to serve the Shadow.

[EmperorAllspice]

 

Access to creatures who are better than shadowspawn.

 

I would certainly like to see the Seanchan try to fight a Gholam or two. Or a large pack of Darkhounds.

 

The SHADOW are the closest thing to an overpowered faction here. If any exist. Literally the only reason they aren't winning is

 

A.) None of them ever learned that there's no "I" in "Team"

B.) Reality IITSELF doesn't want them to win.

[Rob Hammers]

The most jarring arc in ToM was Aviendha's. While confident that what she saw was simply a glimpse and not a foretelling, I was disappointed to learn that the Aiel would be destroyed if they went to war with the Seanchan. No matter how much I love Mat and came to endear Tuon, I hate the Seanchan.

 

I hope Aviendha can convince Rand to change the course of the Aiel's future, but I would rather see the Seanchan thrown back into the sea. Thoughts?

[Barid Bel Medar]

[Merged Topics]

[clutzyninja]

The most jarring arc in ToM was Aviendha's. While confident that what she saw was simply a glimpse and not a foretelling, I was disappointed to learn that the Aiel would be destroyed if they went to war with the Seanchan. No matter how much I love Mat and came to endear Tuon, I hate the Seanchan.

 

I hope Aviendha can convince Rand to change the course of the Aiel's future, but I would rather see the Seanchan thrown back into the sea. Thoughts?

Considering what Avi knows about the prophesies, it may not be up to Rand what happens after the last battle.  It may be an indication that Avi and the other WOs need to take the fate of the Aiel into their own hands.