Lack of humility in TWOT

[ratswot]

Did RJ give an explanation of why there was so little humility in TWOT? Why is it that just about every character is a bigger a..hole or b...h then the next?

 

As a matter of fact who is the most humble character in TWOT? My vote goes to Tam.

[MasterAblar]

Hurin is pretty humble.

[ratswot]

Perhaps we should limit this to the 1st and 2nd tier characters. Come to think of it defining 1st and 2nd tier characters might deserve a thread of it's own.

[clutzyninja]

Perrin - humble to a fault

Mat - confident when talking to women, but humble about his skills

Rand - Extraordinarily humble, puts on a steel front

Lan - Also humble, "There's always someone better."

Aviendha - FLuctuates back and forth, but very capable of humility

Egwene - Driven, yes.  Natural leader, yes.  But it took a whole lot of humility to accept her punishments while she was captive

Siuan - Has learned quite a bit about humility in service to Bryne

 

Not even sure what you're talking about.  Randlnad, like our own world, has its fill of conceited jerks, but there are plenty of examples to the contrary as well.

[ratswot]

Perrin - humble to a fault

Mat - confident when talking to women, but humble about his skills

Rand - Extraordinarily humble, puts on a steel front

Lan - Also humble, "There's always someone better."

Aviendha - FLuctuates back and forth, but very capable of humility

Egwene - Driven, yes.  Natural leader, yes.  But it took a whole lot of humility to accept her punishments while she was captive

Siuan - Has learned quite a bit about humility in service to Bryne

 

Not even sure what you're talking about.  Randlnad, like our own world, has its fill of conceited jerks, but there are plenty of examples to the contrary as well.

 

Perrin - not too bad

Mat - arrogant pr..k

Rand - stubborn mule

Lan - not too bad

Aviendha - you kidding me right?!

Egwene - ditto! She is terrible. One of the worst. She loves ordering people around.

Siuan - had humility forced upon her through servitude to Bryne but that is not the same.

 

A couple of examples, not plenty.

[David Selig]

 4 out of 6 main characters and many minor ones are powerful channellers. I'd imagine it's very hard to be humble when you have this kind of ability. And the main characters achieved an awful lot very young, which also tends to make you arrogant.

[clutzyninja]

Calling Perrin "not too bad: in regards to humility?  I'm not sure what exactly you're expecting out of the characters that could be considered realistic.  Maybe if they were Tibetan monks Perrin would fall short...

And Besides, Rand is the friggin Dragon Reborn.  It's his job, and FATE, to bend nations to his will, and Mat and Perrin shape fate itself just by standing there.  The channelers can bend the fabric of reality with a thought, and most of them are barely old enough to be able to buy a drink in a bar.  How much humility can you possibly reasonably expect?

[Rhienne]

Rand started out as very humble and unassuming but I think grew/forced himself out of it.  I wouldn't say its even particularly humility that he gets back after VoG, although he certainly loses a lot of his arrogance.

 

Mat I don't think of particularly humble.  Maybe in his internal POVs, but he thinks he's pretty good with women.  

 

Perrin really is very humble.  I think more so than any other character.

 

Egwene, I don't see as humble at all.  Even acceptance of her punishment is a form of pride - she never believes her persona as the Amyrlin has been humbled a whisker by her punishment. 

 

Part of Nynaeve's character development is learning humility.  I think Siuan's development follows this too, although she is forced into a position where this is no alternative.

 

Elayne, while not generally humble, was able to swallow her pride and genuinely apologise to Mat when she was wrong (albeit heavily prompted by Aviendha).

 

Of the next tier down of characters I think Loial has a great deal of humility, as does Hurin.

[clutzyninja]

Mat - arrogant pr..k

 

Who has Mat ever acted that way towards that didn't in some way deserve it?  Is the ability to say what's on your mind and speak up to those whom most fear really arrogance?

[ratswot]

 

Who has Mat ever acted that way towards that didn't in some way deserve it?  Is the ability to say what's on your mind and speak up to those whom most fear really arrogance?

 

Mat - arrogant pr..k

 

 

 

It's more what he thinks of himself.

[ratswot]

Of the next tier down of characters I think Loial has a great deal of humility, as does Hurin.

 

The Ogier in general are pretty humble. How about we list all the characters who lack humility?

[Rhienne]

 

 

Who has Mat ever acted that way towards that didn't in some way deserve it?  Is the ability to say what's on your mind and speak up to those whom most fear really arrogance?

 

Mat - arrogant pr..k

 

 

 

It's more what he thinks of himself.

 

Its maybe more a little bit of cockiness than actual arrogance I think, and its mostly him having thoughts like 'There weren't many women who could resist Mat Cauthon's best smile.'.

[Plato]

The perceived arrogance probably comes from the character's inability to ask for help with anything ever.  Instead of asking for help, every character immediately thinks they can handle doing any given situation by themselves.  And the fact that Rand et all actually succeeds by himself just makes the more arrogant! 

 

Rand: The glass images of yourself have come to life, and there are a ton of maidens right outside your door who could help... no I'll do it myself. 

Mat: The playing cards have come to life and are trying to kill me?  I'll just assume it was Rand going crazy trying to kill me, and tell no one what happened. 

Rand: There's a forsaken over here, or over there, in my dreams, or following me around saying "you are mine" over and over and over?  I'll just keep that knowledge to myself.

Moraine: What time is it?  Not tea time.  Already took a bath... OH!  It's time to manipulate everyone again!

Egwene: I know ALL the weaves!  My 1 year experience as a novice, and 2 week experience as a damane means I know EVERYTHING!  BOW BEFORE SUPREME AMYRLIN EGWENE!

Nynaeve: I have to spend 2-3 years as a novice, then another few years as an Accepted and this is a tradition for thousands of years?!  Ain't Nobody got time for that!

Forsaken: If we united and attacked Rand at once and helped each other, we might accidently kill a main character...

Lan: Only I can carry this burden...

Rand: Guess I gotta face this forsaken alone again!

Thom: I have political knowledge and can play the game of not thrones well?  I guess I'll disappear for the next 2 books again!
Perrin: 4 words: "My wife is kidnapped."

Faile: I must make my husband different so that I may love him more!  No one can save him from my love! 

Tuan: I am the Empress, you are dacavle, whatever I say, you will grovel!

Gawyn: Blah blah blah I'm a princeling, blah blah

Rand: Explain my plan!?  But that would require effective communication skills and proper leadership!  I'll just make all the Aes Sedai fret over my plan for half the book!

 

 

By the end of the books however, each character had learned to accept help/lead/be humbled so it wasn't so bad.

[clutzyninja]

The perceived arrogance probably comes from the character's inability to ask for help with anything ever.  Instead of asking for help, every character immediately thinks they can handle doing any given situation by themselves.  And the fact that Rand et all actually succeeds by himself just makes the more arrogant! 

 

Rand: The glass images of yourself have come to life, and there are a ton of maidens right outside your door who could help... no I'll do it myself. 

Mat: The playing cards have come to life and are trying to kill me?  I'll just assume it was Rand going crazy trying to kill me, and tell no one what happened. 

Rand: There's a forsaken over here, or over there, in my dreams, or following me around saying "you are mine" over and over and over?  I'll just keep that knowledge to myself.

Moraine: What time is it?  Not tea time.  Already took a bath... OH!  It's time to manipulate everyone again!

Egwene: I know ALL the weaves!  My 1 year experience as a novice, and 2 week experience as a damane means I know EVERYTHING!  BOW BEFORE SUPREME AMYRLIN EGWENE!

Nynaeve: I have to spend 2-3 years as a novice, then another few years as an Accepted and this is a tradition for thousands of years?!  Ain't Nobody got time for that!

Forsaken: If we united and attacked Rand at once and helped each other, we might accidently kill a main character...

Lan: Only I can carry this burden...

Rand: Guess I gotta face this forsaken alone again!

Thom: I have political knowledge and can play the game of not thrones well?  I guess I'll disappear for the next 2 books again!

Perrin: 4 words: "My wife is kidnapped."

Faile: I must make my husband different so that I may love him more!  No one can save him from my love! 

Tuan: I am the Empress, you are dacavle, whatever I say, you will grovel!

Gawyn: Blah blah blah I'm a princeling, blah blah

Rand: Explain my plan!?  But that would require effective communication skills and proper leadership!  I'll just make all the Aes Sedai fret over my plan for half the book!

 

 

By the end of the books however, each character had learned to accept help/lead/be humbled so it wasn't so bad.

I think you're oversimplifying ome of the characters' motivations.

For Egwene, it was never about her knowing more about the one tower, it was about the AS being split and petty and no one stepping up to take command.  SO she did, and very effectively.  And she had plenty of help from Siuan and the WOs, which she readily acknowledges.

Rand - Well, taking things on alone is just what he does, but for your example, he always went out of his way to keep all women, even the Maidens, out of danger, so there's that.  I think he would have acccepted help were there a couple AshaMans outside the door.

Forsaken - well yeah I'll give you that one.

And Perrin too (he's still  my boy though)

Nyn - I don't think it was the time spent she had a problem with.  It was more that she knew she had achieved more with healing in her short time than most yellows had in a lifetime, but yeah, still arrogance I suppose.

[Rhienne]

The perceived arrogance probably comes from the character's inability to ask for help with anything ever.  Instead of asking for help, every character immediately thinks they can handle doing any given situation by themselves.  And the fact that Rand et all actually succeeds by himself just makes the more arrogant! 

 

Rand: The glass images of yourself have come to life, and there are a ton of maidens right outside your door who could help... no I'll do it myself. 

Mat: The playing cards have come to life and are trying to kill me?  I'll just assume it was Rand going crazy trying to kill me, and tell no one what happened. 

Rand: There's a forsaken over here, or over there, in my dreams, or following me around saying "you are mine" over and over and over?  I'll just keep that knowledge to myself.

Moraine: What time is it?  Not tea time.  Already took a bath... OH!  It's time to manipulate everyone again!

Egwene: I know ALL the weaves!  My 1 year experience as a novice, and 2 week experience as a damane means I know EVERYTHING!  BOW BEFORE SUPREME AMYRLIN EGWENE!

Nynaeve: I have to spend 2-3 years as a novice, then another few years as an Accepted and this is a tradition for thousands of years?!  Ain't Nobody got time for that!

Forsaken: If we united and attacked Rand at once and helped each other, we might accidently kill a main character...

Lan: Only I can carry this burden...

Rand: Guess I gotta face this forsaken alone again!

Thom: I have political knowledge and can play the game of not thrones well?  I guess I'll disappear for the next 2 books again!

Perrin: 4 words: "My wife is kidnapped."

Faile: I must make my husband different so that I may love him more!  No one can save him from my love! 

Tuan: I am the Empress, you are dacavle, whatever I say, you will grovel!

Gawyn: Blah blah blah I'm a princeling, blah blah

Rand: Explain my plan!?  But that would require effective communication skills and proper leadership!  I'll just make all the Aes Sedai fret over my plan for half the book!

 

 

By the end of the books however, each character had learned to accept help/lead/be humbled so it wasn't so bad.

I'm not sure in what way you are using the word humility, but most of these are not examples of the opposite of it.  

 

Rand doesn't ask for help from the Maidens because he can't stand the idea of women dying for him.  It has nothing to do with him thinking he is too good to need their help.

 

The examples you give for Rand and Mat are not examples of a lack of humility.  They are examples of the fear and uncertainty they feel about being connected to the Dragon, and their distrust of the motivations of the people they might be able to ask for help, e.g. Moiraine.

 

Moiraine, Egwene, and Nynaeve do have issues with humility.  One of the frequent complaints about Egwene as a character is that she doesn't really get humbled, or not in a way that causes her psyche to take a knock from it.  Nynaeve certainly lacks humility at the beginning of the series, but the example about her skipping being Accepted is not her choice at all.  She is not given much say in the matter.

 

For the Forsaken it is not because they are arrogant and believe they are capable alone that prevents them from working together.  It is mostly their distrust of each other.

 

For Lan it is honour and duty, not arrogance which drives him.

[szilard]

If you are humble = they will kill you in the world of WOT. They are leaders, so they cannot be humble.