Cadsuane Bothers Me

[Suttree]

 

Ha. That's your take away from the character? Very deep reading there rat.

 

My nick on this forum is "ratswot". Kindly refer to me as "ratswot" ONLY.

 

 

Easy mate, people here often shorten. Hence I become Sutt, Mastar Ablar goes to MA, Fisher King = Fish etc. Your preference has been noted.

[False Dragon1991]

I suppose the "PHAW!!!" Gets annoying really quickly and unfortunately its her catchphrase. Plus she does lord over everybody. I suppose she is sort of grating but I felt kind of sorry for her in Gathering Storm.

[Gnarlhorn]

Cadsuane is about as good as an AS can get - she does everything that AS are supposed to do, but often don't.  She has genuinely noble goals, doesn't have time for fools, and gets things done rather than manoeuvring for personal gain.  However, she also has many of the flaws that most AS have - mostly a very condescending attitude, and the expectation of respect from everyone before she has done anything to earn it in their eyes.  She is also likely to have an inherent bias towards men given she is from Far Madding.

I agree with this.  I definitely wanted to like Cadsuane, and often I did like her.  Compared to other AS who drove me completely mad, she was great.

 

I have really only have one main complaint with her, and that is the way she treated Nynaeve.  Nyn didn't deserve her treatment at the hands of Cads.  It would have been really cool, and strikingly human, if Cads had developed with Nynaeve the kind of relationship she developed with Sorilea.  I wish RJ/BS had done this.  Instead, Cads treats her like crap, which was utterly stupid.

 

Obviously Cads' treatment of Rand, at face value, was terrible and idiotic.  However, I like to think that Cads was fulfilling her prophecy in the only way it possibly could have happened, so it wasn't really her fault so much as it was her destiny and beyond her control.

[Suttree]

I have really only have one main complaint with her, and that is the way she treated Nynaeve.  Nyn didn't deserve her treatment at the hands of Cads.  It would have been really cool, and strikingly human, if Cads had developed with Nynaeve the kind of relationship she developed with Sorilea.  I wish RJ/BS had done this.  Instead, Cads treats her like crap, which was utterly stupid.

 

She comes around to respecting Nyn towards the end. We know the lesson she thinks Nyn needs to learn however:

 

And she [Nynaeve] had not been put through the lessons that what must be endured, could be endured. In truth, Cadsuane sympathized with her. Somewhat. It as a lesson not everyone could learn in the Tower. She herself, full of pride in her new shawl and her own strength, had been taught by a near toothless wilder at a farm in the heart of the Black Hills.

 

Winter’s Heart, The Humming Bird’s Secret

 

 

She was absolutely correct too.

[clutzyninja]

 

Ha. That's your take away from the character? Very deep reading there rat.

 

My nick on this forum is "ratswot". Kindly refer to me as "ratswot" ONLY.

 

Take it easy Francis.

[EmperorAllspice]

Why has no Aes Sedai ever tried just being flat out nice and supportive towards Rand? Moiraine seemed to be learning to do that, which was a breath of fresh air if I've ever known one. And now we have Cadsuane who is back to treating Rand like garbage. Now, most aes sedai are full of themselves and enjoy lordin over people, but apparently Cadsuane is more benevolent than that. So why don't they try a nicer approach, Rand CLEARLY despises it when people try to control him, so why do they feel the need to use that approach over and over?

 

IFlat out nice-ness has NEVER been tried to my recollection. Not with any kind of sincerity. Cad is meant to teach Rand how to laugh and cry again, right? You'd think that would be the prime time to mix up the general Aes Sedai bag of tricks when it comes to helping people.

[Suttree]

Why has no Aes Sedai ever tried just being flat out nice and supportive towards Rand? Moiraine seemed to be learning to do that, which was a breath of fresh air if I've ever known one. And now we have Cadsuane who is back to treating Rand like garbage.

Moiraine did try that and he ran roughshod all over her. Add to that the AS who came bearing gifts and compliments who then promptly kidnapped and beat him and Cads had no other direction to take. It was the only course of action left to her. The quotes as to why have already been provided.

But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

- Winter’s Heart, Bonds

"Most men will take what is offered, if it seems attractive and pleasant," Sorilea said. "Once, we thought of Rand al'Thor so. Unfortunately, it is too late to change the path we walk. Now, he suspects whatever is offered freely. Now, if I wanted him to accept something, I would pretend I did not want him to have it. If I wanted to stay close to him, I would pretend indifference to whether I ever saw him again." Once more, those eyes focused on Cadsuane, green augers. Not trying to see what lay inside her head. The woman knew.

 

- The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

Lastly she swore to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT. She also saved his life multiple times over, backed hin to the hilt with things like the cleansing, etc. Compared to all of that calling him "boy"(often when he is acting like a child) is hardly treating him "like garbage". She doesnt care for titles, she hates politicking, and she doesn't suffer fools. It's part of the reason the WO's respect her so much. She keeps her word and always works towards Rand's benefit(a driving piece of her character is trying to better those around her and we see her show compassion). Despite that all many fans seem to care about is "but ZOMFG she was a big meanie to the Dragon Reborn!"

[EmperorAllspice]

 

Why has no Aes Sedai ever tried just being flat out nice and supportive towards Rand? Moiraine seemed to be learning to do that, which was a breath of fresh air if I've ever known one. And now we have Cadsuane who is back to treating Rand like garbage.

Moiraine did try that and he ran roughshod all over her. Add to that the AS who came bearing gifts and compliments who then promptly kidnapped and beat him and Cads had no other direction to take. It was the only course of action left to her. The quotes as to why have already been provided.

But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

- Winter’s Heart, Bonds

"Most men will take what is offered, if it seems attractive and pleasant," Sorilea said. "Once, we thought of Rand al'Thor so. Unfortunately, it is too late to change the path we walk. Now, he suspects whatever is offered freely. Now, if I wanted him to accept something, I would pretend I did not want him to have it. If I wanted to stay close to him, I would pretend indifference to whether I ever saw him again." Once more, those eyes focused on Cadsuane, green augers. Not trying to see what lay inside her head. The woman knew.

 

- The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

Lastly she swore to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT. She also saved his life multiple times over, backed hin to the hilt with things like the cleansing, etc. Compared to all of that calling him "boy"(often when he is acting like a child) is hardly treating him "like garbage". She doesnt care for titles, she hates politicking, and she doesn't suffer fools. It's part of the reason the WO's respect her so much. She keeps her word and always works towards Rand's benefit(a driving piece of her character is trying to better those around her and we see her show compassion). Despite that all many fans seem to care about is "but ZOMFG she was a big meanie to the Dragon Reborn!"

 

Yes, and everything you say is true. But it doesn't make her likeable to me. and it makes me want to saw my own arm off because people seem to be confused or annoyed that I don't like her despite her being so benevolent.

 

I honestly don't know what to do. I can't talk about anything regarding characters because what I consider likeable is radically different from everyone else that I've seen on this forum.

[EmperorAllspice]

The problem has never been that I don't understand people's reasons, and more that I have no idea what to do about it. How can I tolerate a story which I've gotten into after reading for so long with a character this dominant, who ruins the villain's plans, and has the story going out of it's way to demonstrate that her abrasive, harsh methods are right?

[Rhienne]

 

 

Moiraine did try that and he ran roughshod all over her.

Unfortunately Moiraine had kind of burned her boats with Rand by that point.  I'm not surprised he didn't respond too well to her when she eventually tried a different tack with her given that she spent the first four books refusing to share information and trying to manipulate him into completing the prophecies in the way she felt they should be met.  Even Perrin in tGH gets very frustrated with her refusal to share her goals and information.

[False Dragon1991]

The Gathering Storm actually seems to be making out that Moiraine actually was very good at swaying Rand, especially "when he went roughshod over her". He actually ended up doing what she wanted far more when she tried this. Nynaeve even thinks that he would never have let Cadsuanne be his advisor if Moiraine hadn't convinced him to be more open to Aes Sedai in general. Obviously given that Rand is off the rails and Matt is looking for Moiraine; hell Nynaeve even openly says "I wish Moiraine were here". Given how dark some of the prophecies are and the road the characters have walked its not surprising that Moiraine kept them in the dark about how bad things were for them. She also wanted to try and help guide the characters because she sincerely believed that she did know better, which, she does, shes more knowledgeable and skilled. Basically its only because Moiraine really does care. Whilst her keeping things close does frustrate the readers and the main POV characters I don't think she can be judged so harshly for this.

 

 

Really? Does that catchphrase not bother anyone else? PHAW!!!

[Mr Ares]

The only thing about Cadsuane I didn't like was how she acted towards Rand in public.  She can call him boy and talk down to him all she wants in private because that is their understanding, but it was just flat out unrealistic and absurd for her to treat him that way with others in the room.  Nobody would ever act that way in the real world.

In my experience, when people say "nobody would act like that in the real world", they mean "my experience of the real world is so lacking that I've never met anyone like that". There are absolutely people who would act like that. And get away with it.

 

 

 

 

I don't understand how people can be bothered by her.  She is so no-nonsense and gets things done well enough.  Compared to the other Aes Sedai, it's a breath of fresh air!

 

I don't read stories to watch people get things done. I read them to watch the heroes fail and grow as a result of said failures, only to fail again. And if you're going to have a character who gets things done I'd rather they not be a condescending jerk.

That sounds tremendously dull.

 

Personally, Cadsuane reminds me of me somewhat, and if I've learnt anything from being me, it's that it is entirely possible to be right almost all the time, be incredibly condescending and rude to everyone, and still, bizarre as it may seem, manage to be likeable. Some of use being better gives the rest of you something to aspire to.

Well you're failing at being likeable right now.

Thank you. It's nice to know that I'm coming across in the way I intend.

 

But whatever. It's obviously just me who has a problem with her.

 

... not sure what I can do about that :(

Well, a lot of people dislike Cadsuane. It's just they often dislike her for bad reasons (or use bad reasons to rationalise an irrational dislike - either way, attempting to debate the issue tends not to end well).

 

 

 

I just feel completely lost. Being the only person who finds a character detestable and not being able to defend that view in any way.

 

I just look at a character like Nynaeve. A jerk who was done so well because the story and the characters are AWARE that she's a jerk and has a sense of irony about it. She pays for being condescending and mean. I can't side with the person who's completely in control of a situation. But whenever I say that. I'm called out on it. I don't get it!

 

... (deep breath) I'm losing my mind

You're not alone.  A lot of people dislike her, myself included.  She goes into that (large) pile of characters that I am sure would make me want to throttle them if I had to spend more than 5 minutes in their vicinity, but just because Cadsuane is infuriating, doesn't mean that she isn't a good, strong-willed, and noble woman who is also very capable.  I'm not 100% convinced that her methods were right - I think she came precariously close to pushing Rand over the edge completely without being aware of it, but I think she had the right intentions and did the best with the knowledge she had.

And the thing about me is that i don't like her for precisely that reason. I crave failure. I love watching heroes struggle, lose and be humbled. Every character save her seems to have these things happen to them at one point or another. Do any of those things happen to her later on? How long does it take for cads to figure out how to break Semi? Does she have to spend a while thinking about it? is she initially at a loss?

Cadsuane is an old lady with centuries of experience at doing what she does. Expecting masses of mistakes is unrealistic, as a woman prone to mistakes would likely not have the success and reputation that she does. Expecting a lot of character growth is also unreasonable, as she's already done most of her developing. The reason she doesn't fail much during the series is because she's already done her failing in the past. She's not perfect, she doesn't know everything. It does take her a while to figure out how to deal with Semi, but she's cautious in how she approaches her - she waits and observes. Don't forget that she's not the main character, and therefore is less central to the narrative - as the lead, she would limit the storytelling possibilities because there isn't anywhere her character needs to go, and she's very good at what she does. She works because she's a supporting player. Her job is not "main character", it's "competent advisor to main character".

 

 

Ha. That's your take away from the character? Very deep reading there rat.

 

My nick on this forum is "ratswot". Kindly refer to me as "ratswot" ONLY.

Good luck with that, son.

 

 

 

Why has no Aes Sedai ever tried just being flat out nice and supportive towards Rand? Moiraine seemed to be learning to do that, which was a breath of fresh air if I've ever known one. And now we have Cadsuane who is back to treating Rand like garbage.

Moiraine did try that and he ran roughshod all over her. Add to that the AS who came bearing gifts and compliments who then promptly kidnapped and beat him and Cads had no other direction to take. It was the only course of action left to her. The quotes as to why have already been provided.

But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

- Winter’s Heart, Bonds

"Most men will take what is offered, if it seems attractive and pleasant," Sorilea said. "Once, we thought of Rand al'Thor so. Unfortunately, it is too late to change the path we walk. Now, he suspects whatever is offered freely. Now, if I wanted him to accept something, I would pretend I did not want him to have it. If I wanted to stay close to him, I would pretend indifference to whether I ever saw him again." Once more, those eyes focused on Cadsuane, green augers. Not trying to see what lay inside her head. The woman knew.

 

- The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

Lastly she swore to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT. She also saved his life multiple times over, backed hin to the hilt with things like the cleansing, etc. Compared to all of that calling him "boy"(often when he is acting like a child) is hardly treating him "like garbage". She doesnt care for titles, she hates politicking, and she doesn't suffer fools. It's part of the reason the WO's respect her so much. She keeps her word and always works towards Rand's benefit(a driving piece of her character is trying to better those around her and we see her show compassion). Despite that all many fans seem to care about is "but ZOMFG she was a big meanie to the Dragon Reborn!"

 

Yes, and everything you say is true. But it doesn't make her likeable to me. and it makes me want to saw my own arm off because people seem to be confused or annoyed that I don't like her despite her being so benevolent.

 

I honestly don't know what to do. I can't talk about anything regarding characters because what I consider likeable is radically different from everyone else that I've seen on this forum.

Well firstly, what do you mean by likeable? Do you mean you like reading about a character, or that you like a character as a person? The two are not the same.

[EmperorAllspice]

 

 

 

Why has no Aes Sedai ever tried just being flat out nice and supportive towards Rand? Moiraine seemed to be learning to do that, which was a breath of fresh air if I've ever known one. And now we have Cadsuane who is back to treating Rand like garbage.

Moiraine did try that and he ran roughshod all over her. Add to that the AS who came bearing gifts and compliments who then promptly kidnapped and beat him and Cads had no other direction to take. It was the only course of action left to her. The quotes as to why have already been provided.

But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

- Winter’s Heart, Bonds

"Most men will take what is offered, if it seems attractive and pleasant," Sorilea said. "Once, we thought of Rand al'Thor so. Unfortunately, it is too late to change the path we walk. Now, he suspects whatever is offered freely. Now, if I wanted him to accept something, I would pretend I did not want him to have it. If I wanted to stay close to him, I would pretend indifference to whether I ever saw him again." Once more, those eyes focused on Cadsuane, green augers. Not trying to see what lay inside her head. The woman knew.

 

- The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

Lastly she swore to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT. She also saved his life multiple times over, backed hin to the hilt with things like the cleansing, etc. Compared to all of that calling him "boy"(often when he is acting like a child) is hardly treating him "like garbage". She doesnt care for titles, she hates politicking, and she doesn't suffer fools. It's part of the reason the WO's respect her so much. She keeps her word and always works towards Rand's benefit(a driving piece of her character is trying to better those around her and we see her show compassion). Despite that all many fans seem to care about is "but ZOMFG she was a big meanie to the Dragon Reborn!"

 

Yes, and everything you say is true. But it doesn't make her likeable to me. and it makes me want to saw my own arm off because people seem to be confused or annoyed that I don't like her despite her being so benevolent.

 

I honestly don't know what to do. I can't talk about anything regarding characters because what I consider likeable is radically different from everyone else that I've seen on this forum.

Well firstly, what do you mean by likeable? Do you mean you like reading about a character, or that you like a character as a person? The two are not the same.

 

 No, I do not like reading about a "good" character who isn't also likeable as a person. So to me they ARE the same thing near enough in that regard. If a character is an antagonist or otherwise MEANT to be wrong then I can find them brilliant for their jerkish or evil qualities

 

 

 

 

I just feel completely lost. Being the only person who finds a character detestable and not being able to defend that view in any way.

 

I just look at a character like Nynaeve. A jerk who was done so well because the story and the characters are AWARE that she's a jerk and has a sense of irony about it. She pays for being condescending and mean. I can't side with the person who's completely in control of a situation. But whenever I say that. I'm called out on it. I don't get it!

 

... (deep breath) I'm losing my mind

You're not alone.  A lot of people dislike her, myself included.  She goes into that (large) pile of characters that I am sure would make me want to throttle them if I had to spend more than 5 minutes in their vicinity, but just because Cadsuane is infuriating, doesn't mean that she isn't a good, strong-willed, and noble woman who is also very capable.  I'm not 100% convinced that her methods were right - I think she came precariously close to pushing Rand over the edge completely without being aware of it, but I think she had the right intentions and did the best with the knowledge she had.

And the thing about me is that i don't like her for precisely that reason. I crave failure. I love watching heroes struggle, lose and be humbled. Every character save her seems to have these things happen to them at one point or another. Do any of those things happen to her later on? How long does it take for cads to figure out how to break Semi? Does she have to spend a while thinking about it? is she initially at a loss?

Cadsuane is an old lady with centuries of experience at doing what she does. Expecting masses of mistakes is unrealistic, as a woman prone to mistakes would likely not have the success and reputation that she does. Expecting a lot of character growth is also unreasonable, as she's already done most of her developing. The reason she doesn't fail much during the series is because she's already done her failing in the past. She's not perfect, she doesn't know everything. It does take her a while to figure out how to deal with Semi, but she's cautious in how she approaches her - she waits and observes. Don't forget that she's not the main character, and therefore is less central to the narrative - as the lead, she would limit the storytelling possibilities because there isn't anywhere her character needs to go, and she's very good at what she does. She works because she's a supporting player. Her job is not "main character", it's "competent advisor to main character".

 

 

Ok then. Why do the Forsaken make so many stupid mistakes then? They also have decades if not centuries of experience, yet even as they're dying off like flies, they refuse to take the third agers seriously.

 

Now before you give a justification, remember that I'm meant to take Team Shadow seriously, else the conflict has no tension, meaning there's no reason to care about the events that transpire.

[MarkDiLillo]

Ares,

 

There is nobody who would ever smack Putin/Obama/etc. in public and call them a child in front of others while belittling them and talking down to them at every opportunity.  It is patently absurd for anyone to behave that way.  The only exceptions could be their wives or mother maybe?  And even that is stretching it.

 

Like I said, behind closed doors amongst Rand's utmost inner circle, this behavior is not too jarring.  It is ridiculous when she acts that way towards Rand with others around though.  It is one of my only pet peeves with RJ's writing.  The other being how so many rulers and people of extreme importance sit on their chairs with their legs lounging over the side as if they're about to teeter and fall off the chair at any moment.

[EmperorAllspice]

 The other behind how so many rulers and people of extreme importance sit on their chairs with their legs lounging over the side as if they're about to teeter and fall off the chair at any moment.

The only person who pulled that off well was like Sammael =P

[MarkDiLillo]

 

 The other behind how so many rulers and people of extreme importance sit on their chairs with their legs lounging over the side as if they're about to teeter and fall off the chair at any moment.

The only person who pulled that off well was like Sammael =P

 

 

ha I don't know...that always bothered me.  When I saw it once or twice I was like, OK, this is just a super leisure scene and it's showing off how comfortable these guys are.  But later on, that seemed to become the "goto pose" for how important people sat in chairs and it is just absurd.  I mean seriously...try to sit in your chair like that right now.  You end up looking like a fool.

[EmperorAllspice]

Well with Sammael (and I'm pretty sure with most others who sit like that too) it's meant to fool their audience into THINKING they're at ease, when in actuality they could strike at any time like a coiled snake. It's one of those things I kinda got used to

[clutzyninja]

Maybe chairs are shaped different in Randland, and this pose is actually comportable?

[ratswot]

The problem has never been that I don't understand people's reasons, and more that I have no idea what to do about it. How can I tolerate a story which I've gotten into after reading for so long with a character this dominant, who ruins the villain's plans, and has the story going out of it's way to demonstrate that her abrasive, harsh methods are right?

 

I feel the same way as you do. RJ kept introducing more and more intolerable characters in each book culminating with Cadsuane. A more annoying character you will not find in TWOT. Cadsuane's angle in TWOT was silly and unnecessary.

[ratswot]

 

In my experience, when people say "nobody would act like that in the real world", they mean "my experience of the real world is so lacking that I've never met anyone like that". There are absolutely people who would act like that. And get away with it.

The only thing about Cadsuane I didn't like was how she acted towards Rand in public.  She can call him boy and talk down to him all she wants in private because that is their understanding, but it was just flat out unrealistic and absurd for her to treat him that way with others in the room.  Nobody would ever act that way in the real world.

 

 

With a statement like this it is clear you are the one lacking worldly experience. Please advise when and where an advisor has slapped a ruler in public?

[Suttree]

For those that want a bit of a deeper dive into the character than Cadsuane is a "big meanie"...good thread here:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/51169-the-subtleties-of-cadsuane/?hl=%20cadsuane%20%20luckers

[EmperorAllspice]

again it's this weird issue of me not liking the bullying BECAUSE it's justified. I'm not big on "being a jerk to someone is justified." even when it is. Bullying in any respect rubs me the wrong way. It always does when the good guys employ it. Yes, I even hate it when heroes bully villains.

 

I swear I'd have much more respect and sympathy for her if she was ever on the recieving end of this abuse and she was actually bothered by it. I hated the Aes Sedai up until the story started treating them awfully, now I just want the Aes Sedai to make a come back.

[ratswot]

For those that want a bit of a deeper dive into the character than Cadsuane is a "big meanie"...good thread here:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/51169-the-subtleties-of-cadsuane/?hl=%20cadsuane%20%20luckers

 

A very interesting thread. Thanks for posting this.

 

I think Bob T Dwarf summed it up pretty nicely. I too find the characters in TWOT very one dimensional with Cadsuane being no exception. There was an opportunity for RJ to create a really interesting character in Cadsuane but she got boring very quickly. It would have been great to see Cadsuane start out the way she did but eventually develop respect for Rand and treat him with more respect. It doesn't matter how old, powerful or wise you are, a little humility goes a long way.

[Suttree]

 

 

For those that want a bit of a deeper dive into the character than Cadsuane is a "big meanie"...good thread here:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/51169-the-subtleties-of-cadsuane/?hl=%20cadsuane%20%20luckers

A very interesting thread. Thanks for posting this.

Yeah no worries, lots of good points all around and it shows just how divisive a character she is in the fandom.

 

Can't agree with her being one dimensional however. Multiple examples are cited of how adaptable she can be. In addition her drive to better those around her, compassion for male channelers when every other AS is content to let them die posts stilling, the way she thinks outside the box and isn't held up at all by convention, the various ways she deals with peopel based on their actions all make for a complex character once you get passed her surface level characteristics.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

 

 

Why has no Aes Sedai ever tried just being flat out nice and supportive towards Rand? Moiraine seemed to be learning to do that, which was a breath of fresh air if I've ever known one. And now we have Cadsuane who is back to treating Rand like garbage.

Moiraine did try that and he ran roughshod all over her. Add to that the AS who came bearing gifts and compliments who then promptly kidnapped and beat him and Cads had no other direction to take. It was the only course of action left to her. The quotes as to why have already been provided.

But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

- Winter’s Heart, Bonds

"Most men will take what is offered, if it seems attractive and pleasant," Sorilea said. "Once, we thought of Rand al'Thor so. Unfortunately, it is too late to change the path we walk. Now, he suspects whatever is offered freely. Now, if I wanted him to accept something, I would pretend I did not want him to have it. If I wanted to stay close to him, I would pretend indifference to whether I ever saw him again." Once more, those eyes focused on Cadsuane, green augers. Not trying to see what lay inside her head. The woman knew.

 

- The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

Lastly she swore to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT. She also saved his life multiple times over, backed hin to the hilt with things like the cleansing, etc. Compared to all of that calling him "boy"(often when he is acting like a child) is hardly treating him "like garbage". She doesnt care for titles, she hates politicking, and she doesn't suffer fools. It's part of the reason the WO's respect her so much. She keeps her word and always works towards Rand's benefit(a driving piece of her character is trying to better those around her and we see her show compassion). Despite that all many fans seem to care about is "but ZOMFG she was a big meanie to the Dragon Reborn!"

 

Yes, and everything you say is true. But it doesn't make her likeable to me. and it makes me want to saw my own arm off because people seem to be confused or annoyed that I don't like her despite her being so benevolent.

 

I honestly don't know what to do. I can't talk about anything regarding characters because what I consider likeable is radically different from everyone else that I've seen on this forum.

 

Well firstly, what do you mean by likeable? Do you mean you like reading about a character, or that you like a character as a person? The two are not the same.

 

 No, I do not like reading about a "good" character who isn't also likeable as a person. So to me they ARE the same thing near enough in that regard. If a character is an antagonist or otherwise MEANT to be wrong then I can find them brilliant for their jerkish or evil qualities.

 

So if someone is meant to be a jerk you can like them for their jerkish qualities, but this isn't enough for you to like Cadsuane who is, after all, meant to be abrasive and hard to like?

 

 

 

 

 

I just feel completely lost. Being the only person who finds a character detestable and not being able to defend that view in any way.

 

I just look at a character like Nynaeve. A jerk who was done so well because the story and the characters are AWARE that she's a jerk and has a sense of irony about it. She pays for being condescending and mean. I can't side with the person who's completely in control of a situation. But whenever I say that. I'm called out on it. I don't get it!

 

... (deep breath) I'm losing my mind

You're not alone.  A lot of people dislike her, myself included.  She goes into that (large) pile of characters that I am sure would make me want to throttle them if I had to spend more than 5 minutes in their vicinity, but just because Cadsuane is infuriating, doesn't mean that she isn't a good, strong-willed, and noble woman who is also very capable.  I'm not 100% convinced that her methods were right - I think she came precariously close to pushing Rand over the edge completely without being aware of it, but I think she had the right intentions and did the best with the knowledge she had.

 

And the thing about me is that i don't like her for precisely that reason. I crave failure. I love watching heroes struggle, lose and be humbled. Every character save her seems to have these things happen to them at one point or another. Do any of those things happen to her later on? How long does it take for cads to figure out how to break Semi? Does she have to spend a while thinking about it? is she initially at a loss?

 

Cadsuane is an old lady with centuries of experience at doing what she does. Expecting masses of mistakes is unrealistic, as a woman prone to mistakes would likely not have the success and reputation that she does. Expecting a lot of character growth is also unreasonable, as she's already done most of her developing. The reason she doesn't fail much during the series is because she's already done her failing in the past. She's not perfect, she doesn't know everything. It does take her a while to figure out how to deal with Semi, but she's cautious in how she approaches her - she waits and observes. Don't forget that she's not the main character, and therefore is less central to the narrative - as the lead, she would limit the storytelling possibilities because there isn't anywhere her character needs to go, and she's very good at what she does. She works because she's a supporting player. Her job is not "main character", it's "competent advisor to main character".

 

 Ok then. Why do the Forsaken make so many stupid mistakes then? They also have decades if not centuries of experience, yet even as they're dying off like flies, they refuse to take the third agers seriously.

 

Now before you give a justification, remember that I'm meant to take Team Shadow seriously, else the conflict has no tension, meaning there's no reason to care about the events that transpire.

 

The Chosen are from a different time. They rose to power in a different environment. Most of them emerged form the Bore not even knowing the language. Also, the Chosen got where they did due to them having certain qualities, which don't necessarily help them overmuch in these changed times. They still enjoy a great deal of success, and their reputation for stupid mistakes is somewhat exaggerated.

 

Ares,

 

There is nobody who would ever smack Putin/Obama/etc. in public and call them a child in front of others while belittling them and talking down to them at every opportunity.  It is patently absurd for anyone to behave that way.  The only exceptions could be their wives or mother maybe?  And even that is stretching it.

You don't really understand who you're talking to, do you? If given cause, I would absolutely do that to Putin or Obama. Or Cameron, or any other world leader you care to name. Calling people child and belittling them at every opportunity is practically my stock in trade. It takes more provocation for me to smack someone, but if I have cause to it being public or them being of importance is no reason to hold back.

 

 

In my experience, when people say "nobody would act like that in the real world", they mean "my experience of the real world is so lacking that I've never met anyone like that". There are absolutely people who would act like that. And get away with it.

 

 

The only thing about Cadsuane I didn't like was how she acted towards Rand in public.  She can call him boy and talk down to him all she wants in private because that is their understanding, but it was just flat out unrealistic and absurd for her to treat him that way with others in the room.  Nobody would ever act that way in the real world.

With a statement like this it is clear you are the one lacking worldly experience. Please advise when and where an advisor has slapped a ruler in public?

 

How does my having seen people do things like that translate to my lacking worldly experience? I'll bluntly criticise anyone, regardless of how public it is or how senior they are. Actual slapping is rarer, but as the initial point was not restricted to specifically the slapping or rulers by advisers, there's no reason for me to answer the question. Look it up yourself if you're interested, I'm sure history has some examples and you'll probably learn something in the process.

 

I think Bob T Dwarf summed it up pretty nicely.

This sentence is never a good sign.