Does Tuon really think attacking the White Tower is going to work?

[False Dragon1991]

I just read that chapter in Gathering Storm. Tuon believes that 300 soldiers flown in by raken is sufficent to capture and collar every Aes Sedai in Tar Valon. She says doing this as a night raid is sufficient. This completely ignores the fact that there are 60,000 soldiers led by Gareth Bryne surrounding the Aes Sedai outside the walls with a similarly large army inside one of the greatest fortress cities in the world. 

 

Seriously, if this plan actually works, even just to steal a few channelers then I will call serious bullshit. There is no way a bunch of suldam and damane can just walk into Tar Valon and expect all of them to be like timid sheep for the slaughter. There are tens of thousands of soldiers led by one of the great captains camped right there. They have just recently had their arses handed to them on a plate by Iturtide. Do they really think this one is going to be any different? This is the most idiotic plan and yet it is being given dignity by the plot; why? 

 

I could understand if the Seanchan learned travelling and put half a million men and 400 damane or something to attack Tar Valon. But, that, plan. Really, the plot has given these people far too much leeway. 

 

I still don't understand how they have an endless supply of soldiers. Just moving across the Aryth Ocean would have been impossible and a pre-modern state doing this is silliness. But yeah, they can lose 150,000 soldiers and shrug it off. Not counting attrition, Itulrides previous battles, losses at Falme, Rands attack towards Ebou Dar where he used Callandor. So tens of thousands more have also been killed. This ignores the fact that they no longer have any reinforcements or supplies from Seanchan. So this whole vast army is living off the land (with the food perishing due to the Dark One) and without any negative effects? So apparently this operation is more like D-Day than the Spanish Armada... 

 

Plus, I don't see how the Trollocs didn't wipe out Tylees army. A trolloc is nine foot tall in mail, almost like an ogier, no human on foot should be able to match that and they are numberless. A myrdaal is comparable to a blademaster and makes his trollocs fearless. They also induce panic and refuse to stay dead. The seanchan also have no experience against this enemy and so would be unaware of a lot of the weaknesses like killing myrdaal who have linked or the specific tactics (like those in the White Book for the trolloc wars). They also had them ambushed. So this monstrous army, rather than panicking and cutting the Seanchan down is immediately defeated by these people who have no experience against them? Really? Well, thats it, Last Battle won with these ridiculously over powered things in the fight; just drop them on Shayol Ghul. 

[Agitel]

We're talking about technology on the level of the 1500s. They sailed across the ocean on thousands of Carracks, pretty much, at least that's what I deduced from the physical description of the boats. Thousands crossed the Aryth Ocean, and they've been recruiting from among the native population. With all the war and chaos you have a lot of people pushed off farms and looking for work, pay and food, and soldiering likely offers all of it. Plus they recruit women as well as men. And they're not just living off the land, they have political control over half of the continent, and a thousand year old tradition of military conquest and supplying it. Anyway, keep reading and finish first. Then maybe we can discuss what happens in more detail.

 

EDIT: I saw that I wrote "hundreds of thousands" before. I definitely don't think that. I may have originally been going to write hundreds but revised that. Still, thousands may give the wrong impression, too. I think it was probably about 1,200, maybe up to 1,500 or so.

[False Dragon1991]

We're talking about technology on the level of the 1500s. They sailed across the ocean on thousands of Carracks, pretty much, at least that's what I deduced from the physical description of the boats. Hundreds of thousands crossed the Aryth Ocean, and they've been recruiting from among the native population. With all the war and chaos you have a lot of people pushed off farms and looking for work, pay and food, and soldiering likely offers all of it. Plus they recruit women as well as men. And they're not just living off the land, they have political control over half of the continent, and a thousand year old tradition of military conquest and supplying it. Anyway, keep reading and finish first. Then maybe we can discuss what happens in more detail.

 

I actually think the ships are inspired from the huge ocean going ships the Chinese Ming dynasty used when it attempted some big expeditions across South East Asia and India.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Despicable or not, the Seanchan are very, very good soldiers. They are like the Roman Legion equivalent. Very adaptable with extreme discipline. The Trolloc attack is not really a verifiable battle. We don't know how many there were, how many soldiers fought against them, if they killed all the Trollocs, if they retreated and met up with a larger force.

 

However, it's not that strange in comparison to other things from the book. Rand beats a blademaster after less than a year of training and little battle experience. Various people throughout the series manage to do well against Shadowspawn when they haven't even seen them before. Nobody outside the Borderlands or Aes Sedai has had more than a chance encounter with Trollocs. 

 

I mean, the people of Two Rivers managed to slaughter Trollocs handily. The Seanchan are some of the best soldiers in the world, their performance isn't out of the ordinary in the WoT. 

 

To the Tower attack. As Agitel says, read it and then it can be discussed.

 

However, take into account that Tuon has a high opinion of herself and has a poor opinion of Aes Sedai (not without reason either). Her PoV isn't exactly reliable, and her generals don't have much experience with Aes Sedai. It is a good plan from Seanchan PoV. 

 

If we are talking about Egwene validating the threat - the Seanchan are. They are very dangerous, and considering the state of the White Tower, they have every reason to be worried. 

 

Again, the Seanchan are like the Roman Empire in terms of assimilation and organization. They are very efficient and effective. They bulk up their armies with native soldiers and their food distribution/management is effective. Far more so than any of the other nations. 

 

They fare no better than any of the other armies do in terms of food shortages. The Borderlands have 200k soldiers marching around through Andor and Murandy. The Aiel have hundreds of thousands of spears available. It is simply that we don't get detailed insights into their troubles. 

 

Also, if you are referring to the situation in Bandar Eban and Arad Doman, that is a unique situation. They are in total chaos without a ruler or organization, and their army is fighting on the Amloth Plain. Rand is also amplifying the food spoilage and Graendal doesn't help much. 

 

Edit: Also, to put it in perspective, the Seanchan Empire is at least twice the size of the whole area Rand lives in. They have also been preparing to return for around 2-300 years. Before Semirhage wiped out the Seanchan mainland, several hundreds of thousands - very possibly over a million- of Seanchan had already landed.

 

Now, I'm not saying that it is perfectly reasonable in a real world comparison. However, this isn't the real world. Within the context of the story and the WoT world, it is very possible. 

[BFG]

The Seanchan aren't planning an all out attack, they're certainly not expecting to fight Gareth's army as they want to be in and out before the army mobilises.  That leaves them fighting against the Tower Guard and the AS.  It's as more of a scouting mission than anything else.

[False Dragon1991]

@ BFG. Tuon says in that passage that they are planning to leave enough space for captured marath damane on the raken and that there primary objective is to secure the hundreds of extra damane at Tar Valon to improve their hand in negotiations with Rand. Yes, she really is saying 300 soldiers can take all of them prisoner. It is not a scouting mission being discussed.

 

 

@Barid-

 

Rand is a tavern and was trained by Lan. Even then it was a difficult fight. The Seanchan are flesh and blood fighting an army of wringwraiths and 9 foot monsters? 

 

Not only was Perrin present to boost the tavern but the Two Rivers had the huge advantage of all being trained as longbowmen. This gave them a colossal advantage over the trollocs in their defensive line with the stakes to keep the charge off them. They also had experienced commanders in Tam al Thor and also had help from Aes Sedai. Plus, they were only saved by a flank attack by Faile. The Seanchan lack this technological advantage, have no tavern to boost their odds, were ambushed rather than holding a prepared position and whilst they may have had damane this should have been offset by fear inducing myrrdaal and the sheer element of surprise.

[BFG]

Perhaps scouting mission was the wrong word.  But they don't expect to capture all of them, they expect to capture as many as possible.  They're using the word raid - they're not planning a full-on battle. 

 

 

"We would use a force of mostly to'raken," General Yulan said. "With some raken for scouting. Our captured maps show large grasslands with very few inhabitants, which could be used as resting points along the way. We could strike across Murandy here," he pointed at a second map, which aides held up, "and come at Tar Valon from the south. If it pleases the Highest Daughter, we could raid at night, while the marath'damane are asleep. Our objective would be to capture as many of them as possible."

"It is wondered if this really could be accomplished," Selucia Voiced. Tuon was intrigued. "What numbers would we be able to use for such a raid?"

"If we were fully committed?" Yulan asked. "I believe I could gather up between eighty and a hundred to'raken for the assault."

Eighty to a hundred to'raken. So, perhaps around three hundred soldiers, with equipment, leaving room to bring back captured marath'damane. Three hundred would be a considerable force for a raid like this, but they would have to move quickly and lightly, so as to not be trapped.

[Agitel]

The Tower is in a bad state, and the Seanchan aren't planning a siege or capture or full assault of the Tower, but a raid with elite troops. I think we can discuss the specifics a bit more later.

[Suttree]

Not only was Perrin present to boost the tavern but the Two Rivers had the huge advantage of all being trained as longbowmen. This gave them a colossal advantage over the trollocs in their defensive line with the stakes to keep the charge off them. They also had experienced commanders in Tam al Thor and also had help from Aes Sedai. Plus, they were only saved by a flank attack by Faile. The Seanchan lack this technological advantage, have no tavern to boost their odds, were ambushed rather than holding a prepared position and whilst they may have had damane this should have been offset by fear inducing myrrdaal and the sheer element of surprise.

 

Untrained peasants with bows compared to one of the best, most disciplined fighting forces in the entire world whose channelers are much more profificent with battle weaves.

 

Also you do realize ta'veren doesn't mean automatic help in bad situations correct?

[False Dragon1991]

Being able to use a longbow requires a lifetime of training. If you are able to shoot with it then essentially you are a trained soldier.

[Suttree]

Nope, you are a farmer who uses a longbow to hunt, protect the flock  etc. Can't really compare that to a lifetime trained soldier who has been fighting almost non-stop for years and is trained to work in groups.

[False Dragon1991]

That's pretty much the same amount of training as the longbowmen at Agincourt. You trained and practiced at home in case the army was raised; full time professional armies were rare back then. Plus, the Seanchan were ambushed, by nine foot monsters and ringwraiths. Perrin held a defensive position with stakes to keep his foe at a distance and could shoot them to death as they crossed an open field; he was not caught in the open by trollocs. Discipline can only count for so much when you're trapped like that. Many Roman legions were destroyed in just this manner like at Teutoberg forest where they couldn't use their formations and caught unawares. But no, the Seanchan fight there way out and repel this ambush against foes they have never before seen out of their deepest nightmares.  

[Suttree]

That's pretty much the same amount of training as the longbowmen at Agincourt. You trained and practiced at home in case the army was raised; full time professional armies were rare back then.

 

But that is not the situation in the 2Rs. It is a place the world has forgot and they have only ever caught the slightest rumours of war. They are not some levy training and waiting to be called.

 

Look other posters have explained the situation pretty clearly as well. There is no issue here. Lastly Trollocs are known to be cowardly and not to fight in unison. They break at the first sign of trouble.

[False Dragon1991]

Unless linked by a myrdaal which they usually are. In which case they are fearless. 

 

Look, I just don't like the representation of the Seanchan as this god faction that have better channelers than everyone, better soldiers than everyone, ridiculously huge numbers. have military geniuses in their army, a philosophy of war better than anyone elses, other advantages with raken n ogier and seem to face down threats which our heroes struggle with. On top of that they seem to have taken every loss in their stride without any ill effect; including the dissolution of their whole empire at home.   

[Suttree]

Look, I just don't like the representation of the Seanchan as this god faction that have better channelers than everyone,

 

Just to comment on this. They don't have better channelers than everyone. They have better "battle weave" channelers which is merely one area of expertise.

[False Dragon1991]

 

Look, I just don't like the representation of the Seanchan as this god faction that have better channelers than everyone,

 

Just to comment on this. They don't have better channelers than everyone. They have better "battle weave" channelers which is merely one area of expertise.

 

 

Its the only one that really matters. The others seem limited in there application, make ships move faster, see peoples dreams, heal people, linking. Only travelling is useful and that, frankly is easy to learn. So yes, they r being presented as better at everything. Its annoying. 

[Agitel]

 

 

Look, I just don't like the representation of the Seanchan as this god faction that have better channelers than everyone,

 

Just to comment on this. They don't have better channelers than everyone. They have better "battle weave" channelers which is merely one area of expertise.

 

 

Its the only one that really matters. The others seem limited in there application, make ships move faster, see peoples dreams, heal people, linking. Only travelling is useful and that, frankly is easy to learn. So yes, they r being presented as better at everything. Its annoying. 

 

I agree, it makes no sense and is very annoying that an institution steeped in military tradition and has been training people to be used as weapons for centuries is better at battle applications than an institution more firmly involved in political mediation, general politics, and academic study.

[False Dragon1991]

 

 

 

Look, I just don't like the representation of the Seanchan as this god faction that have better channelers than everyone,

 

Just to comment on this. They don't have better channelers than everyone. They have better "battle weave" channelers which is merely one area of expertise.

 

 

Its the only one that really matters. The others seem limited in there application, make ships move faster, see peoples dreams, heal people, linking. Only travelling is useful and that, frankly is easy to learn. So yes, they r being presented as better at everything. Its annoying. 

 

I agree, it makes no sense and is very annoying that an institution steeped in military tradition and has been training people to be used as weapons for centuries is better at battle applications than an institution more firmly involved in political mediation, general politics, and academic study.

 

 

No, its ridiculous that they would have better channelers when the White Tower has an unbroken tradition going back to the breaking. The White Tower has fought wars in the past during the trolloc wars which have never been equalled until the present in terms of scale. Aes Sedai are weapons in addition to being scholars and politicians. The Seanchan don't even have any means of teaching their damane, they simply force them until they do because they don't study the use of the One power or teach there damane anything other than to obey; but apparently this form of training works wonders. When Egwene was a hostage when did her suldam actually tell her how to weave battle forms? Oh that's right, the suldam can't because they "don't see" the weaves.  If you keep hitting somebody they'll learn apparently. You would think that that knowledge and experience would count for something. Never mind that Egwene had one of the Forsaken teach her loads of stuff from the Age of Legends. Are you telling me the suldam know better battle forms than from the Age of Legends? Coz, obviously somebody who can't channel themselves would know the best techniques to "teach" and "learn" from "experience"...

 

Its ridiculous that they have better soldiers than the Aeil who we are told by Iltide are worth two of his own soldiers and when he fought them at Tar Valon it seemed he was losing 10 of his men for one of them.. People who are born into hardship and constant warfare; not just the occasional rebellion. Aeil ARE a warrior society. The Seanchan are not. Yet they have beaten the Aeil at every encounter and actually talk lightly at the prospect of facing them.

 

Its ridiculous that they have better soldiers than the Borderlanders who fight the armies of darkness on a daily basis. But of course for the Seanchan the darkspawn are no threat at all. They can just walk through ambushes without any knowledge unscathed.

 

Its ridiculous that they have better sailors and a better navy than the Sea Folk where all they do is sail.

 

 

Pick any area and the book tells you "Seanchan are better at doing this than anyone and have a lot more of it". Kill one general, another pops up just as good. Destroy one army of 50,000, an army of a 150,000 appears, destroy that and another twice the size pops up. The scum is limitless as well as over powered.  

[Gnarlhorn]

Meh, I agree more or less about the Seanchan.  I don't have the same gripes about their battle with the Trollocs, I find it perfectly plausible that they could have won there.  Trollocs are shown to be almost unbelievably weak time and time again in this series, regardless of who is fighting them.  That, in itself, is really quite absurd.  The fact that they are nine feet tall and probably weigh 500-700lbs makes it really difficult to believe that any but the most elite humans could match them 1 for 1.  Justice is never really done in the series to trollocs, in my view, and if we were never told how large they were, everything we read about them would point them to being roughly equivalent to orcs or even goblins.

 

But yeah, I definitely agree about the White Tower raid.  Once you've read further I'd like to discuss it more.  The plan sounded patently absurd to me to begin with, as well.

 

On another note, I have to disagree about damane vs. AS.  Damane are slaves, in fact, they are barely even individuals, more like semi-intelligent tools.  I can't be made to believe that damane are more effective in battle than Aes Sedai.  They are more effective weapons, yes, but they are ONLY weapons.  Aes Sedai are individuals with free will and autonomy, and that will always make them more valuable on a battlefield than an automaton, no matter how good they are at making things go boom.  Fortunately, it never seems to really play out that damane are that much better than Aes Sedai in combat.  The true combat advantage for channelers is in the insane War of Power era weaves that Rand brings back.  Now if the AS or damane knew THOSE weaves, I would be singing a different tune.

 

In fact, it's really astonishing to me that Rand made no effort to teach his channeling allies all those combat weaves in preparation for the last battle.  In the last couple books we see people running around using fireballs and blowing up the ground underneath people.... didn't it occur to anyone that they might be more effective if they were using deathgates, fire pillars, and all that other crazy shit Rand busts out in KoD? I think it is.

[Suttree]

Rand did teach them, and they were used...

 

 

Pevara opened her senses, trying to spot—or feel—their quarry. The Sharans turned on them and pointed, but then cried out as Androl brought an avalanche of snow down on them from a gateway to the side. He had tried making those Deathgates that the other Asha'man used, but the weave was apparently just different enough that he had trouble. Instead, he stuck to what he was good at doing.

 

 

 

Unfortunately Brandon inexplicably dropped(forgot?) large numbers of channelers out of the story.
 It fundamentally changed the nature of the LB.

 

[MasterAblar]

 

No, its ridiculous that they would have better channelers when the White Tower has an unbroken tradition going back to the breaking. The White Tower has fought wars in the past during the trolloc wars which have never been equalled until the present in terms of scale. Aes Sedai are weapons in addition to being scholars and politicians. The Seanchan don't even have any means of teaching their damane, they simply force them until they do because they don't study the use of the One power or teach there damane anything other than to obey; but apparently this form of training works wonders. When Egwene was a hostage when did her suldam actually tell her how to weave battle forms? Oh that's right, the suldam can't because they "don't see" the weaves.  If you keep hitting somebody they'll learn apparently. You would think that that knowledge and experience would count for something. Never mind that Egwene had one of the Forsaken teach her loads of stuff from the Age of Legends. Are you telling me the suldam know better battle forms than from the Age of Legends? Coz, obviously somebody who can't channel themselves would know the best techniques to "teach" and "learn" from "experience"...

 

The don't have better channellers. Aes Sedai are the most well rounded channellers in the world. But the damane have only one real purpose and that's fighting. The Aes Sedai can fight but for the large majority they're not warriors. Perhaps the Aes Sedai of the trolloc wars would be equal to the damane, but the Trolloc Wars were 2000 years ago. An eternity. As for teaching the damane they need use one damane to teach the other. Not to mention the suldam, who can also channel develop a certain affinity with the damane which in reality is simply them coming very close to channelling. The suldam can't channel but the can force the damane to channel something they know how to do. Knowledge and experience does count but the large majority of the Aes Sedai don't have that as far as fighting goes.

 

Egwene learned or rather forced Moghedien to teach her long after she was a captive of the Seanchan so I'm not sure what you're getting at. And no one ever said the suldam know better forms than the Forsaken.

 

And why would the Suldam not know the best things to teach? Are all elite coaches former players who played at the highest level?

 

 

Its ridiculous that they have better soldiers than the Aeil who we are told by Iltide are worth two of his own soldiers and when he fought them at Tar Valon it seemed he was losing 10 of his men for one of them.. People who are born into hardship and constant warfare; not just the occasional rebellion. Aeil ARE a warrior society. The Seanchan are not. Yet they have beaten the Aeil at every encounter and actually talk lightly at the prospect of facing them.

 

 

We're never told they have better soldiers than the Aiel. We're never even told they have a better army than the Aiel. How often have the Seanchan and Aiel met on the battlefield anyway. I can only think of Malden off the top of my head.

 

 

Its ridiculous that they have better soldiers than the Borderlanders who fight the armies of darkness on a daily basis. But of course for the Seanchan the darkspawn are no threat at all. They can just walk through ambushes without any knowledge unscathed.

 

 

The Borderlanders and Seanchan have neither faced eachother nor even been compared so I don't see where you're getting the idea that they're better. And we don't even know the specifics of that ambush. Were the Seanchan outnumbered? Was it just a small raid? Did the Seanchan retreat? We have no détails whatsoever. All we know is Tylee got back to Ebou Dar with some Trolloc heads.

 

 

Its ridiculous that they have better sailors and a better navy than the Sea Folk where all they do is sail.

 

 

Again this was never stated in any way. We have absolutely no détails whatsoever of the Seanchan takeover of the Sea Folk islands and their victory at Ebou Dar was not at sea. Having Superior channellers on your side tends to help you win battles.

[False Dragon1991]

They were fighting the Shaido from Almoth Plain to Malden across a broad front. Not only were the Shaido destroyed but apparently relatively easily. The ones who talk to Perrin say that they're a slightly tougher opponent but easy to defeat and the result shows coupled with Malden they destroy the Shaido wherever they met them. When you consider that Ilturide considers the Aeil to be worth two of his own men and how deadly they were at Tar Valon this very much suggests that the Seanchan had a better army even when they lacked damane; hence why the shaido appearance did nothing to slow their cause. So the Seanchan are better than the Aeil.

 

Egwene learned things of Moriden and she passed this on to the rebel Aes Sedai. This presumably includes battle weaves from the Age of Legends, why wouldn't Egwene ask for that kind of information? Ergo, the rebel Aes Sedai should know more about battle weaves than the damane or the suldam at this point in the story unless you are suggesting that knowledge from the Age of Legends does not meet that of the Seanchan?

 

The Seanchan never attribute all of their success to having damane and they do not have a damane in every single army or every single ship or every single contingent. Given that they succeeded against the Aeil, the Sea Folk and the trollocs it can only be assumed that they are being presented as better warriors, better sailors and better at killing shadowspawn than all the other factions. They are a Mary Sue faction.

 

 

Its unlikely that just a few trollocs would have been that far south raiding. Normally whenever they use stedding to travel its with a huge force to effect a big change at the behest of one of the forsaken. Like in the Two Rivers or the Stone of Tear or that 100,000 trolloc attack on Rands loveshack. Clearly they had an agenda for one of the Forsaken and are part of a much larger force. One the Seanchan defeated presumably since they were the intended target as, why ese would they be side-tracked?.

[MasterAblar]

They were fighting the Shaido from Almoth Plain to Malden across a broad front. Not only were the Shaido destroyed but apparently relatively easily. The ones who talk to Perrin say that they're a slightly tougher opponent but easy to defeat and the result shows coupled with Malden they destroy the Shaido wherever they met them. When you consider that Ilturide considers the Aeil to be worth two of his own men and how deadly they were at Tar Valon this very much suggests that the Seanchan had a better army even when they lacked damane; hence why the shaido appearance did nothing to slow their cause. So the Seanchan are better than the Aeil.

 

Egwene learned things of Moriden and she passed this on to the rebel Aes Sedai. This presumably includes battle weaves from the Age of Legends, why wouldn't Egwene ask for that kind of information? Ergo, the rebel Aes Sedai should know more about battle weaves than the damane or the suldam at this point in the story unless you are suggesting that knowledge from the Age of Legends does not meet that of the Seanchan?

 

The Seanchan never attribute all of their success to having damane and they do not have a damane in every single army or every single ship or every single contingent. Given that they succeeded against the Aeil, the Sea Folk and the trollocs it can only be assumed that they are being presented as better warriors, better sailors and better at killing shadowspawn than all the other factions. They are a Mary Sue faction.

 

 

Its unlikely that just a few trollocs would have been that far south raiding. Normally whenever they use stedding to travel its with a huge force to effect a big change at the behest of one of the forsaken. Like in the Two Rivers or the Stone of Tear or that 100,000 trolloc attack on Rands loveshack. Clearly they had an agenda for one of the Forsaken and are part of a much larger force. One the Seanchan defeated presumably since they were the intended target as, why ese would they be side-tracked?.

 

The Shaido were scattered, divided and leaderless. Sammael split them up, but all the channellers went with Sevana. That's why the Seanchan had a relatively easy time with the Shaido bands they encountered. Recall what the Asha'man did to the Shaido at Dumai's Wells. Mishima even tells Perrin that the trick to defeating the Shado is hitting them from both sides with damane.

 

At Malden the large majority of the Wise Ones were knocked by the forkroot, taking away most of the resistance the damane would have faced. Tylee actually gives Perrin the credit for the victory.

 

The problem when Asmodean was teaching Rand was that for everything Rand asked to learn there were ten other things Asmodean could teach him. The gap in knowledge was too huge to be made up so quickly. The same gap in knowledge exists between Egwene and Moghedien. And Moghedien was only a prisoner under Egwene for about 40 days, and it's not like Egwene could spend her entire time having Moghedien teach her new weaves, not least because it would be rather suspicious. In any case there's nothing to suggest that Egwene asked Moghedien to teach her battle weaves. Egwene's more likely to ask her for forgotten weaves like the making of cuendillar and similar things, rather than battle weaves which really aren't the first thing that would come to mind, not least because they're the type of things Egwene can test out very discretely.

 

Besides it's not all about knowledge. What make the Seanchan and particularly the damane so deadly is their organisation and discipline, which among channellers can only be matched by the Asha'man. The damane are never described as particularly flashy, just very effective.

 

Nor should they attribute all their success solely to the fact that they have damane. In CoT, Rand and Cadsuane quite simply compare them to the great captain in their manner of carrying out wars. Nonetheless the presence of superior channellers (as far fighting goes) certainly is a boost. What does it matter how a sailor you are, when the enemy sets fire to your ship, or destroys you sails?

 

They succeeded against the Aiel in circumstances where they had the advantage, and you're being quite ridiculous with the shadowspawn. They fought each other a grand total of once, and we know absolutely nothing of the battle. For all we know the Seanchan showing might have been pathetic. Recall however the shadowspawn probably didn't have channellers with them.

 

Tylee had around 15 000 soldiers with her not to mention plenty of damane considering all they captured at Malden. If they were only attacked by the numbers that attacked Eamond's Field or the Stone of Tear then it's no suprise the Seanchan won. It's very unlikely the shadow sent tens of thousands of trollocs so far South so near to the last battle.

 

You call them a mary sue faction, but they got their ass handed to them at Falme, then by Rand in eastern Altara and then again by Mat in northern Altara. Meanwhile they've defeated a Tarabon that was already in chaos, an Amadicia that was also dealing with issues, and an Altara that is so divided that it make Murandy looks like Andor. Those aren't exactly brilliant victories.

[Yamezt]

We have never seen AS practice battle weaves. The 3rd Oath makes it extremely difficult to do so. We have seen Verin commented that even a fragment of exploding earth hitting white cloaks would have constituted a breach of that oath (when Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne tried to scare whitecloaks).

 

EDITED - added spoiler tags

 

 

On top of all that, the AS practice dignity to a fault. Half the time, they are busy keeping up appearances. With the exception of 1 sitter bouncing around like an energetic teen on a caffeine overdose in the final book, most AS in combat seem to have them sitting calmly on their horses till they are in danger. Alright, to be fair, it would be extremely difficult for a Sul'dum-damane pair to be bouncing around.

 

 

[False Dragon1991]

They are a Mary Sue faction. They have taken these defeats and haven't even been dented. If Rand lost a hundred and fifty thousand men in a single battle that would basically be his entire army gone, much less the armies used by Egwene, the assembled borderlanders or anyone else for that matter. Falme is the only time they actually suffered a major setback and every single time they have just sent another bigger army to make up for the losses they suffered. In other words their defeats are negligible. Even Rome suffered a few defeats in its heyday from people it otherwise wiped the floor with (ie the Macedonians). It hasn't stopped them taking half the continent and being in a position to defeat Rand and strike at the White Tower.

 

Really, Rand and Cadsunae say that every Seanchan general and officer is as good as the five best military minds in Randland? That, they're apparently the only people in the world who understand the basic concept of "learn from your mistakes"; which is pretty silly in of itself. The reason why they recover is because they haven't been seriously damaged because they have an endless supply of elite soldiers and damane.

 

The Aeil method of war involves guerilla, ambush and small unit tactics. We are told Aeil can become invisible even in this unfamiliar terrain and that wetlanders fare poorly by comparison. However, the Seanchan apparently are also better light infantry and are easily able to track down such small bands. So, really, being dispersed shouldn't have made the Shaido any less dangerous, even seperated from chiefs and wise ones they could fight very well. The ones at the stone and their scouts operated entirely on their own and with initiative. Theres a real disconnect between how the Seanchan are dismissive of the Shaido and Rands Aeil but everyone else considers them incredible fighters. But, once again, Seanchan are shown as better coz the Seanchan are the Seanchan.