Why the wheel of time is Almost epic ( IMO)

[David Selig]

 

When the woman in question is literally one of the worst persons ever and a servant of the Dark One, and she's trying to kill you slowly and painfully, it should be very easy. Especially if you've already killed a bunch of men before that. Oh, and let's not forget that by your refusal you are dooming the whole world to go to hell.

 

I honestly don't think he could've beaten Lanfear in Fire Of Heaven, even if he had been going to kill her. Lanfear is the strongest woman ever, AND had an Angreal. I think in that scene at least he was just trying to find a way to blame himself for failing.

 

 I thought so too based on the what's in the book, but IIRC Jordan said when asked that Rand could've beaten Lanfear if he had tried it.

[EmperorAllspice]

Well for my own sanity I'll have to disregard that.

[Tarvalantarverann]

What about the time in The Stone of Tear when he had her cut off from the source and was holding calendor, he could have off with her head right then and there, instead he let her mess around for ages, because he couldn't bring himself to do it. I understand for story purposes it was best she lived, but if we talk reality I would have done it. Jordan should of made them battle briefly until they discover that she couldn't beat him while he held calendor, and he couldn't beat her till he knew more about the source. See! Problem solved no more BS about not hurting a women even to save his own life.

[EmperorAllspice]

Wasn't SHE the one shielding HIM in the stone of tear? and keeping him away from Callandor. I thought when he picked up the sword she was already gone

[Barid Bel Medar]

Wasn't SHE the one shielding HIM in the stone of tear? and keeping him away from Callandor. I thought when he picked up the sword she was already gone

Yeah, Lanfear trounces Rand here. 

 

First she comes in as Selene, and says she is Lanfear, he doesn't believe her, so she shields him. A gray man attacks and Lanfear releases him and lets him kill it. Then he hears battle and ignores her to go out and fight (he forgets Callandor completely).

 

She meets up with him a bit later, and they have their usual talk, he tries to pin her against the wall, but she slices his weaves and tells him he is an idiot and to go get Callandor before Sammael or one of the others decide to take it. 

 

In the first scene (and I believe the second, but I can't recall exactly) he contemplates killing her, but hesitates in part because he doesn't believe her to be Lanfear still, and because she helps him, so he can't bring himself to kill her. 

 

One thing to hear stories about someone, but unless they actually attack you or do harm to you personally, it's hard to see them as evil creatures. Specially if they are actually helping you. 

 

So yeah, even if Rand wanted to try, he would have failed. Lanfear would have destroyed him, Callandor or no. He wasn't skilled enough at this point. 

 

Ishamael (in the battle in tDR) screwed up. He feared Callandor, and forgot that Rand was a child. All he saw was the massive hammer of power that could smash him, and ran. 

 

Lanfear on the other hand, saw Rand for what he was, an ignorant child. Of course, Rand technically had the power to overwhelm her with Callandor, but she took the risk, because it was probable that she could defeat his inexperience. 

 

Of course, his reluctance to kill women played a part. He wouldn't have hesitated as much for one of the male forsaken, but Rand was hardly in a position of power. Lanfear had him beat. 

 

Also, a side note. Rand fears Callandor because he can't use it properly. He has very good reason to fear it as well. 

 

1) His total inexperience means the sheer amount of power he could hold is extremely difficult to control and he is more likely to kill or burn himself out. 

2) The Flaw in Callandor which is revealed, it magnifies insanity (as we see later in the chapter) 

3) A big aMoL spoiler

 

Callandor is a True Power sa'angreal. While Rand doesn't know it, the fear of Callandor comes from this.

 

[Tarvalantarverann]

Ok sorry my mistake

[wotfan4472]

All these situations are tough to get around and reason out well, that is why this site exists! You are not the first to have trouble with this series and how it initially feels when you first read, and you will not be the last.

 

Keep reading and keep coming back to post, it is a great way to  understand those irritating situations.

 

I can say that if you continue with the series, that final battle is worth all the cringing and tossing books across rooms at these characters and their mistakes and prejudices. 

[EmperorAllspice]

 

Wasn't SHE the one shielding HIM in the stone of tear? and keeping him away from Callandor. I thought when he picked up the sword she was already gone

Yeah, Lanfear trounces Rand here. 

 

First she comes in as Selene, and says she is Lanfear, he doesn't believe her, so she shields him. A gray man attacks and Lanfear releases him and lets him kill it. Then he hears battle and ignores her to go out and fight (he forgets Callandor completely).

 

She meets up with him a bit later, and they have their usual talk, he tries to pin her against the wall, but she slices his weaves and tells him he is an idiot and to go get Callandor before Sammael or one of the others decide to take it. 

 

In the first scene (and I believe the second, but I can't recall exactly) he contemplates killing her, but hesitates in part because he doesn't believe her to be Lanfear still, and because she helps him, so he can't bring himself to kill her. 

 

One thing to hear stories about someone, but unless they actually attack you or do harm to you personally, it's hard to see them as evil creatures. Specially if they are actually helping you. 

 

So yeah, even if Rand wanted to try, he would have failed. Lanfear would have destroyed him, Callandor or no. He wasn't skilled enough at this point. 

 

Ishamael (in the battle in tDR) screwed up. He feared Callandor, and forgot that Rand was a child. All he saw was the massive hammer of power that could smash him, and ran. 

 

Lanfear on the other hand, saw Rand for what he was, an ignorant child. Of course, Rand technically had the power to overwhelm her with Callandor, but she took the risk, because it was probable that she could defeat his inexperience. 

 

Of course, his reluctance to kill women played a part. He wouldn't have hesitated as much for one of the male forsaken, but Rand was hardly in a position of power. Lanfear had him beat. 

 

Also, a side note. Rand fears Callandor because he can't use it properly. He has very good reason to fear it as well. 

 

1) His total inexperience means the sheer amount of power he could hold is extremely difficult to control and he is more likely to kill or burn himself out. 

2) The Flaw in Callandor which is revealed, it magnifies insanity (as we see later in the chapter) 

3) A big aMoL spoiler

 

Callandor is a True Power sa'angreal. While Rand doesn't know it, the fear of Callandor comes from this.

 

 

So if Ishamael had been calmer in that fight he might've been able to beat Rand even though he had callandor?

 

Actually, that bothered me, after being backed into a corner, Ishamael asks the Dark One for a boost in power which actually managed to drink in the light from Callandor, implying that he'd been given power roughly on par with it. Yet nothing comes of this action, Rand instantly kills him. That whole part may as well not have happened for all the impact it had.

[Suttree]

Actually, that bothered me, after being backed into a corner, Ishamael asks the Dark One for a boost in power which actually managed to drink in the light from Callandor, implying that he'd been given power roughly on par with it. Yet nothing comes of this action, Rand instantly kills him. That whole part may as well not have happened for all the impact it had.

 

He wasn't given power on par with Callandor. He was trying to use the TP.

[EmperorAllspice]

I know what he was trying to do. I just assumed the TP was incredibly powerful. As gets mentioned, it was negating Callandor's light.

 

Forgive me for assuming that aesthetics played a part in power, it's only a standard descriptive storytelling tool. Callandor creates a ridiculously bright light. Meaning it's stronger than other items of the OP seen thus far. Ishamael's power was creating just as much darkness. It's a fair deduction to assume they were on par with each other

 

And if he had no chance of winning, then why was that scene there? Just to provide forshadowing that says he wasn't the real Dark One after all. That's a bit weak for a climax

[threadnecromancer]

 

 

When the woman in question is literally one of the worst persons ever and a servant of the Dark One, and she's trying to kill you slowly and painfully, it should be very easy. Especially if you've already killed a bunch of men before that. Oh, and let's not forget that by your refusal you are dooming the whole world to go to hell.

 

I honestly don't think he could've beaten Lanfear in Fire Of Heaven, even if he had been going to kill her. Lanfear is the strongest woman ever, AND had an Angreal. I think in that scene at least he was just trying to find a way to blame himself for failing.

 

 I thought so too based on the what's in the book, but IIRC Jordan said when asked that Rand could've beaten Lanfear if he had tried it.

 

In that case was not Rand worried about giving into Lews Therin to beat her? Then he would have Lews Therin's knowledge and skills.

[EmperorAllspice]

 

 

 

When the woman in question is literally one of the worst persons ever and a servant of the Dark One, and she's trying to kill you slowly and painfully, it should be very easy. Especially if you've already killed a bunch of men before that. Oh, and let's not forget that by your refusal you are dooming the whole world to go to hell.

 

I honestly don't think he could've beaten Lanfear in Fire Of Heaven, even if he had been going to kill her. Lanfear is the strongest woman ever, AND had an Angreal. I think in that scene at least he was just trying to find a way to blame himself for failing.

 

 I thought so too based on the what's in the book, but IIRC Jordan said when asked that Rand could've beaten Lanfear if he had tried it.

 

In that case was not Rand worried about giving into Lews Therin to beat her? Then he would have Lews Therin's knowledge and skills.

 

At that point Lews hadn't really manifested as a thing in Rand's head that tried to grab the source independantly.

 

Well forgive me if I liked Lanfear being legitimately dominating in that scene for reasons other than Rand being a coward.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I don't think it was a case that Rand didn't win because he let Lanfear win. 

 

He was certainly holding back a bit; but that doesn't make it certain he would have won even had he went full throttle. 

 

I think RJ just meant that Rand could have won. In the same vein, Moriaine could have - and did - beat Be'lal. 

 

So I don't think it was a case of "default win to Lanfear becasue Rand wasn't trying", just that Rand had in him the capacity to win.