Enter the Dragon Mafia [Basic] D5: Town Wins!!

[peacesells]

Being snarky isn't helping you look town. 

[Tsukibana]

 

 

Darthe did that to me too my first game, it doesn't appear to be anything new.

What gives, Darthe? you just don't like newbs??

I'm just not biased. Hell, they wanted to lynch me D1 my first game and didn't because I played up the newbie card. Look what happened.

 

Beyond that, you just used the newbie card and you never responded to my queries.

 

So, your queries amount to a WIFOM joke logic made by me on my first day in my first game... irrelevant. You called me late for my "long" lee claim, and I have already refuted that, and then you

say I'm trying to fit in... darn right I was as it is my first game, it was moving slow, and I'll be damned if I don't try to make it more interesting... Novice moves, all, as covered by said "newbie card".

Guess what?? Use those mistakes against me now, cause I'm a fast learner.

 

@Rand, I'm pretty certain that saying you're tired of seeing pointless self votes is being against them. To anyone whose played this game more than once the goal of it was fairly clear and it's just boring to use the same tactics again and again expecting something different from it. Despo taught me that.

 

However, based on the hardcore chainsaw defense going on here I feel pretty confident that I am right about Suki and Rand is his scum buddy.

 

I got two, what are the rest of you doing?

 

The only thing you have here is your own trumped up logic against a newb and someone bored... I don't know if I buy all of Rand's "jumpstart" stuff, but I think YOU are the one pushing attention on others.

 

VOTE DARTHE

[Millon]

This is the first time I have experienced a self vote. I just ignored it and took his explanation. I never really THOUGHT about it. After reading everyone's explanation though now I see why it was dumb. You really CAN'T dismiss anything anyone says in mafia can you? Lol.

 

I am near %100 certain I won't have access to a computer before deadline and I am on my phone and don't know how to format letters. But I would like to vote Rand.

 

Maybe if I write the code? [bold] VOTE RAND[/bold] is that it? Is it bold?

[Nolder]

Being snarky isn't helping you look town. 

Neither does avoiding my arguments without a rebuttal help you.

[Nolder]

Millon to bold just use b and then slash b, not the actual word bold

[peacesells]

 

Being snarky isn't helping you look town. 

Neither does avoiding my arguments without a rebuttal help you.

 

 

You made no argument.  You didn't even read what Rand posted..by your own admission.

[RandA lThor]

I'm sorry but self voting in NOT. A good idea. I understand his reasoning, to Get the game started etc. but the truth is if you are town, all it does is waste time. If you survive this day, you will still be looked at with suspicion the whole game. Now if you are a solo win it will eventually serve your purpose. Doing it as scum may help your cause but not your case.

Waste time?  I've got huge reactions out of Peace and Nolder, great ones out of Darthe, and some sort of reaction out of everyone else.  You're right, this will go throughout the game, but not necessarily under this pretense.  These conversations will lead to more, and those to more, and that will be the basis of the game, or that's a large possibility at least.  That's the point of jumpstarting a game.

 

 

I'm sorry but self voting in NOT. A good idea. I understand his reasoning, to Get the game started etc. but the truth is if you are town, all it does is waste time. If you survive this day, you will still be looked at with suspicion the whole game. Now if you are a solo win it will eventually serve your purpose. Doing it as scum may help your cause but not your case.

 

As will everyone else...or should be.  This statement is useless.  It's inherent in the game.  Everyone is always under suspicion.  Why try justifying your inadequate arguments with obvious truths?  You will be under the same suspicion tomorrow as will I and each other player. 

 

The fact is...he's gotten a good result.  Go ahead and lynch Rand.  It will provide info one way or another. 

 

^this as well.  Everyone unless they are viewed by a cop who died and flipped normal cop and there are too few people to be a cult and the godfather and mirror have already died and we have mod confirmation there are no tampering roles. :P

 

 

 

 

 

Unvoting is completely irrelevant. Self voting is one of those things you don't get to just take back or pretend like it didn't happen, like claiming. Once you've done it the damage is done.

Letting someone who's self voted is utterly foolish.

 

Explain why. 

 

Sure.

 

When someone self votes what they are attempting to do is evoke a response of sympathy from the town. It's an appeal to emotion.

It's a gamble that is supposed to make you appear uncaring or defeated, sometimes accompanied by mock outrage. It's normally used when one is near being lynched anyway or as some sort of "plan" to confirm something. Granted Rand doesn't fit that profile but he still needs to be policy lynched and here's why.

 

As a mafia or scum, using this ploy can buy you another day or two at least if it works. People will argue on your behalf that you were already willing to die and therefore you can't be guilty because no guilty person wants to bring themselves that much closer to being lynched.

 

As town your goal is to lynch mafia and scum. It's the only objective and you cannot win without accomplishing that.

Voting for yourself is knowingly voting for town and goes against the spirit of the game. You're playing with fire on the towns behalf. After you've done this you can't be trusted not to be mafia using the ploy and if you in fact were town you were only aiding the mafia by putting yourself closer to death.

 

It's an ultimately scummy move and one which cannot be accepted.

 

 

I wanted to respond in a big way on how you just discredited your whole theory but I think Rand just blew you out of the water.

 

Yes, going emo and and self voting towards the end of a lynch is horrible play that is used by town and scum but Rand's self vote fit none of that bill.  Ply you horrible reasoning elsewhere.

 

You are just trying to justify a horrible policy vote.  You thought Rand would be an easy lynch and you came up with a bogus reason.  I'm calling you on it.  Hopefully others will do the same.

 

You wanted to respond...but you've got nothing and will just repeat that my reasoning is bad because you said so. Got it. 

 

Uh, no, he said that he agrees with what I said, which I'm sure you've thoroughly read.

 

This is the first time I have experienced a self vote. I just ignored it and took his explanation. I never really THOUGHT about it. After reading everyone's explanation though now I see why it was dumb. You really CAN'T dismiss anything anyone says in mafia can you? Lol.

 

I am near %100 certain I won't have access to a computer before deadline and I am on my phone and don't know how to format letters. But I would like to vote Rand.

 

Maybe if I write the code? [bold] VOTE RAND[/bold] is that it? Is it bold?

It would be 

[b][color = red]vote Rand[/color][/b]

But keep in mind that the explanations that you see from Nolder are only for generic self votes when you are about to be lynched.  I did it in different circumstances and his case is pretty much void right now.

 

 

 

Rand, first of all doing something scummy and then saying you did it intentionally to "jumpstart" conversation does not fly.

 

Secondly I am not going to read or reply to any replies inside quotes. It makes a conversation hard to follow.

There's a difference between doing something scummy and doing something extremely scummy and random to the extent where I would not have done that on purpose.  

 

 

 

 

Unless you have a role that says the town wins if you are lynched then yes this is an absolute and I believe in it absolutely.

I would be happy to explain to you why it's never a town move to vote for yourself if you don't understand.

Please go ahead.  Thats like saying its never a good idea to be town and lie about your claim... but oh wait, lots of gambits have won games doing exactly that.  There are never absolutes Nolder, what I did was not a self vote for any other reason then to judge reactions.  None of the conventional self vote reasons apply, so you cannot use the same arguments.

 

ok so multiquotes rnt working for me. Also ive had my daughter in hospital and ive got a funeral tomorrow so i will be a bit absent.

 

Now Rand. Self votes. Then starts multiquote casing.

 

I almost agree with nol about policy lynching self voters. its happening too much.  

 

the casings  we have seen Rand do this a couple of times and iirc he was mafia every time

 

 

vote Rand 

Oh my god, I was self voting to jumpstart the game because I knew its scummy, i know its something that people don't do, and it starts discussion, like this.  You're not policy lynching for self votes, you're policy lynching for jumpstarting the game right now.  If you're going to say policy lynch, say what you're actually doing it for.  And second of all, I case all the time when I'm town.  I also come up with logical cases, go through the list of town and my thoughts on all of them, and have from rare time to time done a WoT.  I pick up any type of casing that I feel like, not relative to my side.  So get your facts straight.

 

Unvoting is completely irrelevant. Self voting is one of those things you don't get to just take back or pretend like it didn't happen, like claiming. Once you've done it the damage is done.

Letting someone who's self voted is utterly foolish.

That literally makes no sense.  I can just envision you policy lynching someone who joke voted themselves on this same reasoning.

 

 

 

Unvoting is completely irrelevant. Self voting is one of those things you don't get to just take back or pretend like it didn't happen, like claiming. Once you've done it the damage is done.

Letting someone who's self voted is utterly foolish.

 

Explain why. 

 

Sure.

 

1. When someone self votes what they are attempting to do is evoke a response of sympathy from the town. It's an appeal to emotion.

It's a gamble that is supposed to make you appear uncaring or defeated, sometimes accompanied by mock outrage. It's normally used when one is near being lynched anyway or as some sort of "plan" to confirm something. Granted Rand doesn't fit that profile but he still needs to be policy lynched and here's why.

 

Yup, you just said it, this was not the scenario I was in, I did it to confuse people, not to garner sympathy or mock outrage.  Why would I do this when there were pretty much no votes on me?

 

2. As a mafia or scum, using this ploy can buy you another day or two at least if it works. People will argue on your behalf that you were already willing to die and therefore you can't be guilty because no guilty person wants to bring themselves that much closer to being lynched.

 

Brilliant, I saved my self from the lynch that wasn't happening.  Again, talk about something relative to what I did, not generics.  This self vote isn't generic.

 

3. As town your goal is to lynch mafia and scum. It's the only objective and you cannot win without accomplishing that.

Voting for yourself is knowingly voting for town and goes against the spirit of the game. You're playing with fire on the towns behalf. After you've done this you can't be trusted not to be mafia using the ploy and if you in fact were town you were only aiding the mafia by putting yourself closer to death.

 

I get it now.  You don't like gambits, traps, fakes, and any other sophisticated play in mafia that doesn't involve going straight at the objective of the game, makes sense.   I voted myself to get reactions from other people, knowing that I would unvote and therefore would not put me close to death.

 

4. It's an ultimately scummy move and one which cannot be accepted.

 

Um... no.  Your logic makes no sense.  

 

 

 

 

 

Darthe did that to me too my first game, it doesn't appear to be anything new.

What gives, Darthe? you just don't like newbs??

I'm just not biased. Hell, they wanted to lynch me D1 my first game and didn't because I played up the newbie card. Look what happened.

 

Beyond that, you just used the newbie card and you never responded to my queries.

 

5. @Rand, I'm pretty certain that saying you're tired of seeing pointless self votes is being against them. To anyone whose played this game more than once the goal of it was fairly clear and it's just boring to use the same tactics again and again expecting something different from it. Despo taught me that.

 

Eh, I guess I see your point, but your initial statement without any background did seem pretty fence sittingy.  

 

6. However, based on the hardcore chainsaw defense going on here I feel pretty confident that I am right about Suki and Rand is his scum buddy.

I got two, what are the rest of you doing?

 

Getting actual scum. :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unvoting is completely irrelevant. Self voting is one of those things you don't get to just take back or pretend like it didn't happen, like claiming. Once you've done it the damage is done.

Letting someone who's self voted is utterly foolish.

Explain why.

Sure.

 

When someone self votes what they are attempting to do is evoke a response of sympathy from the town. It's an appeal to emotion.

It's a gamble that is supposed to make you appear uncaring or defeated, sometimes accompanied by mock outrage. It's normally used when one is near being lynched anyway or as some sort of "plan" to confirm something. Granted Rand doesn't fit that profile but he still needs to be policy lynched and here's why.

 

As a mafia or scum, using this ploy can buy you another day or two at least if it works. People will argue on your behalf that you were already willing to die and therefore you can't be guilty because no guilty person wants to bring themselves that much closer to being lynched.

 

As town your goal is to lynch mafia and scum. It's the only objective and you cannot win without accomplishing that.

Voting for yourself is knowingly voting for town and goes against the spirit of the game. You're playing with fire on the towns behalf. After you've done this you can't be trusted not to be mafia using the ploy and if you in fact were town you were only aiding the mafia by putting yourself closer to death.

 

It's an ultimately scummy move and one which cannot be accepted.

I can add onto this.

 

7. Towns members continue to employ this tactic despite it being a poor one. Why is that, you ask? Simply stated, the effort of voting for ones self with no prior reasoning is a method of baiting for reactions. Seeing as how your vote contributes to your own death it places people into a state of confusion, alloting room for position of error, placing you in the spotlight, and increasing your own status. The problem here is that it is a tactic that affects every player, thus townies react imperfectly as well, you being in the spotlight can be good if you're correct, however until you convince others to listen to you it wastes time and detracts from scum hunting, and having increased status intentionally practically guarantees that you're vanilla because nobody with a PR is so willing to risk themselves (unless they're masons). Again, these are disadvantages to an out of the blue self vote.

 

Actually, I wouldn't say add onto this, I would say bring up the only legitimate thing in the entire paragraph block.  I get what you're saying, and that may have been what I did with you.  But the jumpstart I created also allows other reactions to come in place, that eventually don't just become about the self vote, and about policy lynches, opinions on that, and then from that we can scumhunt.  But I do agree with almost everything here.

 

 

 

1. Yup, you just said it, this was not the scenario I was in, I did it to confuse people, not to garner sympathy or mock outrage.  Why would I do this when there were pretty much no votes on me?

 

2. Brilliant, I saved my self from the lynch that wasn't happening.  Again, talk about something relative to what I did, not generics.  This self vote isn't generic.

 

3. I get it now.  You don't like gambits, traps, fakes, and any other sophisticated play in mafia that doesn't involve going straight at the objective of the game, makes sense.    I voted myself to get reactions from other people, knowing that I would unvote and therefore would not put me close to death.

 

4. Um... no.  Your logic makes no sense.

 

5. Eh, I guess I see your point, but your initial statement without any background did seem pretty fence sittingy.

 

6. Getting actual scum. :P

 

7. Actually, I wouldn't say add onto this, I would say bring up the only legitimate thing in the entire paragraph block.  I get what you're saying, and that may have been what I did with you.  But the jumpstart I created also allows other reactions to come in place, that eventually don't just become about the self vote, and about policy lynches, opinions on that, and then from that we can scumhunt.  But I do agree with almost everything here.

 

 

1, 2, 3, and 4 are to you Nolder.

5, 6, and 7 are to you Darthe.

 

No more excuses Nolder, read and reply to my responses and quit being lazy town, or just admit that the logic you made had huge holes in it.

 

EDIT: Color change

[peacesells]

VOTE BLAH

 

 

Mil, quote this post.  change the name and remove the quote info.  That's what I do.

[Nolder]

 

 

Being snarky isn't helping you look town. 

Neither does avoiding my arguments without a rebuttal help you.

 

 

You made no argument.  You didn't even read what Rand posted..by your own admission.

 

You have a short memory.

[Tyler Glembo]

 

 

Current Vote Count

Nolder (2) - Hally, Peace

Tsuki (1) - Darthe

Rand (4) -RTE, Dice, Nolder, Millon

Darthe (2) - Rand, Tsuki

 

Not Voting (4): Mish, Tinker, Tigraine, Dapiano

 

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch

 

 

Deadline: The Deadline will be Monday at Noon EST (US). Countdown: http://www.timeandda...he Dragon Mafia

 

Edit: Blah (1) - Peace

 

Millon I accepted your vote

[RandA lThor]

 

 

 

Being snarky isn't helping you look town. 

Neither does avoiding my arguments without a rebuttal help you.

 

 

You made no argument.  You didn't even read what Rand posted..by your own admission.

 

You have a short memory.

 

 

No he doesn't, I posted after that... fail

[peacesells]

 

 

 

Being snarky isn't helping you look town. 

Neither does avoiding my arguments without a rebuttal help you.

 

 

You made no argument.  You didn't even read what Rand posted..by your own admission.

 

You have a short memory.

 

 

I did rebut that.  Just not as much as I'd thought I'd have to BECAUSE RAND COVERED IT WELL.

 

So...read Rand's post.  It's more than adequate.

[Nolder]

Rand if you think that was any easier to read you've lost your mind.

I'll indulge you this one time but don't make a habit of it if you expect me to read and respond because I absolutely will not do this for any length of time.

I've had too many headaches over that crap because you and others don't like to use quotes correctly and I will not subject myself to that anymore.

 

Moving on.

 

1. Again that doesn't fly. "I was trolling you" "It was a trap" "It was a joke" etc are not excuses for bad behavior/arguments even if they are true. You made your bed now lay in it.

 

2. You made an appeal to emotion. It doesn't really matter when or why you did it overmuch.

 

3. See 2.

 

4. Because...? I'm not seeing a counterargument here.

[Nolder]

 

 

 

 

Being snarky isn't helping you look town. 

Neither does avoiding my arguments without a rebuttal help you.

 

 

You made no argument.  You didn't even read what Rand posted..by your own admission.

 

You have a short memory.

 

 

No he doesn't, I posted after that... fail

 

Saying that I didn't reply to your reply is not the same thing as saying I made no argument.

 

 

 

 

 

Being snarky isn't helping you look town. 

Neither does avoiding my arguments without a rebuttal help you.

 

 

You made no argument.  You didn't even read what Rand posted..by your own admission.

 

You have a short memory.

 

 

I did rebut that.  Just not as much as I'd thought I'd have to BECAUSE RAND COVERED IT WELL.

 

So...read Rand's post.  It's more than adequate.

 

Ok well I responded to his post.

[RandA lThor]

Rand if you think that was any easier to read you've lost your mind.

I'll indulge you this one time but don't make a habit of it if you expect me to read and respond because I absolutely will not do this for any length of time.

I've had too many headaches over that crap because you and others don't like to use quotes correctly and I will not subject myself to that anymore.

 

Moving on.

 

1. Again that doesn't fly. "I was trolling you" "It was a trap" "It was a joke" etc are not excuses for bad behavior/arguments even if they are true. You made your bed now lay in it.

 

2. You made an appeal to emotion. It doesn't really matter when or why you did it overmuch.

 

3. See 2.

 

4. Because...? I'm not seeing a counterargument here.

1. That statement basically puts you against pretty much every mafia gambit known to man.

 

2. I had a line that said vote rand.  How is that an appeal to emotion?  Most people would think that was just stupid if they didn't see beyond that, and guess what?  A lot of people thought it was stupid... because they didn't see beyond it.

 

3. See 2

 

4. This referenced 1, 2, and 3.

 

And if you don't want to do it like this, show/tell me how and I'll do it that way.

[peacesells]

Would be nice to see others participate.

 

Players - for easy reference I put the post count next to their name.

1. ReleaseTheEvil  8

2. MisheruSedai     7

3. Darthe                12

4. Hallia                  8

5. Tiinker                3

6. Nolder                19

7. Tsukibana          25

8. peacesells         17

9. dapianoplay3r    34

10. dicetosser1      4

11. Tigraine            12

12. Millon                15

13. RandA lThor     13

 

 

dapianoplay3r 34 Tsukibana 25 Nolder 19 peacesells 17 Millon 15 TGlems 13 RandA lThor 13 Tigraine 12 Darthe 12 ReleaseTheEvil 8 Hallia 8 Misheru Sedai 7 dicetosser1 4 Tiinker 3

 

[ReleaseTheEvil]

Sorry I was away at a conference all weekend and my train heading for home finally left. Going to post tonight or tomorrow. Happy with where my vote is although it's formatted oddly on VCs.

[Nolder]

 

Rand if you think that was any easier to read you've lost your mind.

I'll indulge you this one time but don't make a habit of it if you expect me to read and respond because I absolutely will not do this for any length of time.

I've had too many headaches over that crap because you and others don't like to use quotes correctly and I will not subject myself to that anymore.

 

Moving on.

 

1. Again that doesn't fly. "I was trolling you" "It was a trap" "It was a joke" etc are not excuses for bad behavior/arguments even if they are true. You made your bed now lay in it.

 

2. You made an appeal to emotion. It doesn't really matter when or why you did it overmuch.

 

3. See 2.

 

4. Because...? I'm not seeing a counterargument here.

1. That statement basically puts you against pretty much every mafia gambit known to man.

 

2. I had a line that said vote rand.  How is that an appeal to emotion?  Most people would think that was just stupid if they didn't see beyond that, and guess what?  A lot of people thought it was stupid... because they didn't see beyond it.

 

3. See 2

 

4. This referenced 1, 2, and 3.

 

And if you don't want to do it like this, show/tell me how and I'll do it that way.

 

1. Not true. I'm fine with gambits, even bad or stupid ones. My point is if your gambit is to make yourself look scummy the explanation that it was a gambit is not sufficient to get you out of trouble because there is no way of differentiating between bad play by a town and scummy play by scum.

 

2. It's an attempt to get people to feel sympathetic towards you. While strictly speaking the actual appeal to emotion fallacy as an argument occurs later I would still consider a manipulation of emotions through actions just as negatively.

 

4. You're wrong because you're wrong is not a counter argument. Explain why policy lynching someone for self voting is a bad course of action.

 

And this is how I would prefer to hold our conversations. Quote to quote. I also don't mind using quotation marks or even just regular replies.

[RandA lThor]

 

 

Rand if you think that was any easier to read you've lost your mind.

I'll indulge you this one time but don't make a habit of it if you expect me to read and respond because I absolutely will not do this for any length of time.

I've had too many headaches over that crap because you and others don't like to use quotes correctly and I will not subject myself to that anymore.

 

Moving on.

 

1. Again that doesn't fly. "I was trolling you" "It was a trap" "It was a joke" etc are not excuses for bad behavior/arguments even if they are true. You made your bed now lay in it.

 

2. You made an appeal to emotion. It doesn't really matter when or why you did it overmuch.

 

3. See 2.

 

4. Because...? I'm not seeing a counterargument here.

1. That statement basically puts you against pretty much every mafia gambit known to man.

 

2. I had a line that said vote rand.  How is that an appeal to emotion?  Most people would think that was just stupid if they didn't see beyond that, and guess what?  A lot of people thought it was stupid... because they didn't see beyond it.

 

3. See 2

 

4. This referenced 1, 2, and 3.

 

And if you don't want to do it like this, show/tell me how and I'll do it that way.

 

1. Not true. I'm fine with gambits, even bad or stupid ones. My point is if your gambit is to make yourself look scummy the explanation that it was a gambit is not sufficient to get you out of trouble because there is no way of differentiating between bad play by a town and scummy play by scum.

 

2. It's an attempt to get people to feel sympathetic towards you. While strictly speaking the actual appeal to emotion fallacy as an argument occurs later I would still consider a manipulation of emotions through actions just as negatively.

 

4. You're wrong because you're wrong is not a counter argument. Explain why policy lynching someone for self voting is a bad course of action.

 

And this is how I would prefer to hold our conversations. Quote to quote. I also don't mind using quotation marks or even just regular replies.

 

1. The differentiation is that my self vote was completely random, made no sense, came out of nowhere, and right after Darthe's post that we didn't have too much to go on.  

 

2. Please tell me, what positive emotional responses did I get from my self vote?

 

4. I didn't really mean it to be a counter argument, this was more of a you're wrong because of the above.  We should just talk about 1 and 2, that's what 4 is a summary of.

[Nolder]

1. Why should any of that matter? As I said there is no way to differentiate between bad play and scummy play.

 

2. It's not about the result it's the attempt. Manipulation does not have to be successful to be called out as such.

[peacesells]

1. Why should any of that matter? As I said there is no way to differentiate between bad play and scummy play.

 

2. It's not about the result it's the attempt. Manipulation does not have to be successful to be called out as such.

 

 

All you have done is condemn him.  You have not yet made a reasonable argument as to why his SPECIFIC action is policy vote worthy.  To me it looks like you are making the argument that he is scum.  Which is it?

[Nolder]

 

1. Why should any of that matter? As I said there is no way to differentiate between bad play and scummy play.

 

2. It's not about the result it's the attempt. Manipulation does not have to be successful to be called out as such.

 

 

All you have done is condemn him.  You have not yet made a reasonable argument as to why his SPECIFIC action is policy vote worthy.  To me it looks like you are making the argument that he is scum.  Which is it?

 

I don't understand the question, you only gave one option...

[peacesells]

do you think he is scum or are you policy voting him like you originally stated?

 

You have not yet described why a policy vote is appropriate in this case.

[Nolder]

Policy lynching him yes. I don't know one way or another whether he's scum or not until he's dead.

A policy lynch is required because he made a play which is inherently scummy.

It's like suggesting we lynch a cop to confirm their readings instead of lynching the guilty.

You don't let someone who's made a statement (or vote) like that skate by.

 

Well some people do. But they shouldn't.

[peacesells]

That doesn't even equate. Nolder.

 

Ok, I'm convinced you were being opportunistic.   My vote is good as stands.