Demandred's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Suttree]

 

Demandred was insane with jealousy. It was his own jealousy towards LTT which was critical in him choosing the Dark One over the Light. It was Demandred's own insane jealousy which drove him to see LTT's actions in the generalship of Mat Cauthon. It was the insane jealousy of Demandred who not only wanted, .. on his own terms, .. prove that he was better than LTT, but also wanted to be the only one who killed the Dragon Reborn.

 

Insane jealousy can do a lot to foul up a person's judgment, as was proven by Demandrod.

 

demandred was insane in amol in the way that a b-movie villain is insane; perfectly rational except when you need to explain away some stupid action such as leaving the hero alone in the inescapable deathtrap or building his doomsday device with a self-destruct button, then he's insane.

Demandred's character changed greatly in AMoL. All the raving on the battlefield and sudden obsession to kill Rand himself was so silly it almost had me giggling at times. We have zero arc showing how he got to that point from the calculating person we see earlier in the books.

[Vambram]

Before AMOL, in the previous 13 books, we saw only tiny bits and pieces with Demandred in the series. Can you honestly say that you would know someone's FULL entire personality after just small pieces of interactions?

[amolcomments]

Before AMOL, in the previous 13 books, we saw only tiny bits and pieces with Demandred in the series. Can you honestly say that you would know someone's FULL entire personality after just small pieces of interactions?

 

i might hypothesise that demandred went mad from channelling too much of the true power in order to appear to the sharans that he was channelling without weaves.

 

BUT: vital plot information like that should be in the book, not in a behind-the-scenes outrigger; AND insanity STILL does not mean stupidity even if that proves to be the case

[Suttree]

That really is beside the point Vam. Demandred was presented one way up until AMoL and then an entirely different way in AMoL. Just to touch a couple of things he went from saying Generals don't lead from the front and fight beside their men, to leading from the front and fighting beside his men. He wanted LTT dead but was never overly concerned with who did it and ordered others to do so. Now he does noting but rave like a moron in a cring worthy fashion and insists LTT has to die by his own hand.  Bottom line the character changed from how he was presented earlier in the series. That can't be argued. Perhaps we will see some of why it happened in "River of Souls".

[NitroS]

That really is beside the point Vam. Demandred was presented one way up until AMoL and then an entirely different way in AMoL. Just to touch a couple of things he went from saying Generals don't lead from the front and fight beside their men, to leading from the front and fighting beside his men. He wanted LTT dead but was never overly concerned with who did it and ordered others to do so. Now he does noting but rave like a moron in a cring worthy fashion and insists LTT has to die by his own hand.  Bottom line the character changed from how he was presented earlier in the series. That can't be argued. Perhaps we will see some of why it happened in "River of Souls".

i understand your point and even that in demandreds pov about generals. But i think your misunderstanding the context. What he was doing in WH was trying to assault other channelers directly one v circles unaided and being in the thick of the battle, in aMOL he was sitting way in the back of the heights with people surrounding him to absorb channeling blows as the sharans did many times. Do you think the dark one might have said take part in the battle and try and draw lews therin out. If i was the dark one i would have told him to lead the battle and when hes not commanding to take part as the most prominent channeler there.

 

Mat takes part in the battle several times and when he isnt ordering troops about hes making jokes and saying the word bloody and goat several times and teasing kareed. Instead of doing that demandred was taking his spare time to attack the battle with sakarnen and his circle which is logical.

 

Also i forgot about the use of the true power, using it so much infront of the sharans to win them over all the time, could have helped change him aswell like the poster said above. Wait till we get river of souls so we can actually get a better interpretation of his character cause we have what 1 pov of him and like 5 from other peoples pov over 15 book series and we act like we know the character.

[Pandabearparade]

I can understand a lot of people disliking how the character was pulled off, but I really enjoyed Demandred. I especially enjoyed seeing things from his perspective, to the point that I found his death really disappointing. I've always liked villains who are more sympathetic and relatable than pure bwa-ha-ha evil. Demandred seemed to have very little interest in the Dark One's cause or philosophy; he just wanted revenge on the guy who beat him at everything and stole the woman he loved. I find that a lot more enjoyable as a motivation than Semirhage's sadism, or Moridin's desire for release (couldn't he just balefire himself?). 

It's a near certainty that more Wheel of Time books are coming, considering how profitable the series is. I hope they bring Demandred back at some point. Maybe his soul could return through a new character being born? It's not as though the Dark One is in a position to trap him anymore. 

[NitroS]

I can understand a lot of people disliking how the character was pulled off, but I really enjoyed Demandred. I especially enjoyed seeing things from his perspective, to the point that I found his death really disappointing. I've always liked villains who are more sympathetic and relatable than pure bwa-ha-ha evil. Demandred seemed to have very little interest in the Dark One's cause or philosophy; he just wanted revenge on the guy who beat him at everything and stole the woman he loved. I find that a lot more enjoyable as a motivation than Semirhage's sadism, or Moridin's desire for release (couldn't he just balefire himself?). 

 

It's a near certainty that more Wheel of Time books are coming, considering how profitable the series is. I hope they bring Demandred back at some point. Maybe his soul could return through a new character being born? It's not as though the Dark One is in a position to trap him anymore. 

There is only going to be the encyclopedia after that no more books.

[Pandabearparade]

 

I can understand a lot of people disliking how the character was pulled off, but I really enjoyed Demandred. I especially enjoyed seeing things from his perspective, to the point that I found his death really disappointing. I've always liked villains who are more sympathetic and relatable than pure bwa-ha-ha evil. Demandred seemed to have very little interest in the Dark One's cause or philosophy; he just wanted revenge on the guy who beat him at everything and stole the woman he loved. I find that a lot more enjoyable as a motivation than Semirhage's sadism, or Moridin's desire for release (couldn't he just balefire himself?). 

 

It's a near certainty that more Wheel of Time books are coming, considering how profitable the series is. I hope they bring Demandred back at some point. Maybe his soul could return through a new character being born? It's not as though the Dark One is in a position to trap him anymore. 

There is only going to be the encyclopedia after that no more books.

 

If true, that's extremely sad. I want to know what happens with the Seanchan, Rand's kids, and the rest of the characters. 

 

I'm not really convinced that is true, though, even if they say it. Star Wars was supposed to be over, but now we have another one coming in 2015. 

[amolcomments]

 

 

I can understand a lot of people disliking how the character was pulled off, but I really enjoyed Demandred. I especially enjoyed seeing things from his perspective, to the point that I found his death really disappointing. I've always liked villains who are more sympathetic and relatable than pure bwa-ha-ha evil. Demandred seemed to have very little interest in the Dark One's cause or philosophy; he just wanted revenge on the guy who beat him at everything and stole the woman he loved. I find that a lot more enjoyable as a motivation than Semirhage's sadism, or Moridin's desire for release (couldn't he just balefire himself?). 

 

It's a near certainty that more Wheel of Time books are coming, considering how profitable the series is. I hope they bring Demandred back at some point. Maybe his soul could return through a new character being born? It's not as though the Dark One is in a position to trap him anymore. 

There is only going to be the encyclopedia after that no more books.

 

If true, that's extremely sad. I want to know what happens with the Seanchan, Rand's kids, and the rest of the characters. 

 

I'm not really convinced that is true, though, even if they say it. Star Wars was supposed to be over, but now we have another one coming in 2015. 

 

george lucas didn't die though, much as i might have wished it after the phantom menace

[Lord D]

Whether more books are published will presumably be up to the estate.  Star Wars has heaps of book and game spin-offs, set both before and after the main movie sequence.  Other fantasy series like this are Star Trek, Forgotten Realms and Ravenloft.  This belongs in another thread anyway.

[Mr Ares]

 

Be'lal and Sammael were generals too (and Semi as well, to a lesser extent), and those two also joined the Shadow for the same reason as Demandred. They went for Illian and Tear - the largest Westlands army is Andor's, and that country fell to Rahvin, a man who made his conquests by diplomacy rather than war. So why does Demandred need to be in Shara? Maybe he's compensating for something? You know what they say about men with big armies, nudge nudge, wink wink. The only reason to guess Shara is that it would make for a bigger surprise than Murandy, and the Land of Madmen wasn't in the books so is cheating on the part of the author.

That is why Shara made sense RJ avoided the obvious and used red herrings throughout the series. Its like lans ending in TOM. It was built up to be a death so obvious that he obviously was going to be saved i dont think any serious fan thought Lan was going to die in the opening battle at the gap it was way too obvious just like the murandy thing and everyone agrees wouldnt have been effective at all compared to what shara brought to the table.

 

ps why are you comparing sammael in illian as an equal power to a nation of channelers and a huge army bigger then illians without channelers its called being logical. Shara would have been a bigger impact then sammael, rahvin and belals armies put together. The only smart forsaken on lands to take were Semi who went for seanchan who had access to channelers, Messana who went for the white tower channelers and Demandred/ Taim who went for the Black tower channelers. None of the other armies would have compared just because channelers were made too strong in the beginning of the series.  Illians army would have been destroyed easily by any one of those nations.

Shara made sense because there was no reason to think he was in Shara? It seems you and logic are not on speaking terms a the moment - is there anything I can do to help heal this rift in your relationship? We had some subtle indicators of Demandred being in Murandy, and nothing to say he was in Shara. We also had an author who was a big fan of foreshadowing - it's very rare for important things to happen without some form of foreshadowing, and those things that aren't stand out (Cadsuane is often called a late addition to the series due to the absence of any foreshadowing for her prior to her first appearance). Bear in mind that some of the foreshadowing was smacking you around the head with how obvious it was before it came to pass (and come to pass it did - see the use of Heron Wading in the Rushes and Sheathing the Sword in the climax to TGH as quite possibly the bluntest use of foreshadowing RJ ever did).

 

As for the comparison between Sammael, Be'lal and Demandred, the point was clear. Go back and read it. The idea that Murandy is "too small" and doesn't have a big enough army makes no sense in the context of everyone else going for similarly sized nations without massive channeler backing (bearing in mind that Demandred almost certainly began making his moves in Shara prior to the BT being created - Semi arrived in Seanchan shortly after leaving the Bore, and most of the others took up positions between TGH and TDR. Given the scale of Shara, Demandred would have had to have begun making plans well in advance). The idea that everything should be looked at in the context of military power is very small minded. Power is about more than the number of soldiers you can bring to a fight. Bear in mind that much of the strength of Seanchan was nullified by virtue of it being inaccessible on the far side of the Aryth. If it wasn't for Demandred's ability to make vast Gateways, Shara would have been more limited in its ability to play a part in the fight. Consider that taking over a Westlands nations doesn't just add to the Shadow, it denies those countries to the Light - if it wasn't for Rand being far better than expected, and far better than he had any right to be, at removing the Chosen that he had as many countries as he did. There are so many factors that can be considered that the size of Murandy's army compared to Shara's is laughably irrelevant. Best way to win is by doing so before battle is joined, not on the field.

 

The other issues here is it pretty much came down to light v. shara not light v. shadow. It was not handled well, just super blunt. As Mr Ares said earlier very Raymond Feist esque and that is certainly not ever something you want to hear about the WoT.

If anything, Feist handles it better - he might have a random army show up from nowhere to help save the day, but he does at least remember who the main story is meant to be about and doesn't sideline those guys for that new army.

 

Demandred was insane with jealousy. It was his own jealousy towards LTT which was critical in him choosing the Dark One over the Light. It was Demandred's own insane jealousy which drove him to see LTT's actions in the generalship of Mat Cauthon. It was the insane jealousy of Demandred who not only wanted, .. on his own terms, .. prove that he was better than LTT, but also wanted to be the only one who killed the Dragon Reborn.

 

Insane jealousy can do a lot to foul up a person's judgment, as was proven by Demandrod.

And yet in the past he was not obsessed with killing LTT himself - it's a very abrupt shift in characterisation, with nothing to say why he has changed. That's not good. And he was jealous, not insane.

 

 

Also i forgot about the use of the true power, using it so much infront of the sharans to win them over all the time, could have helped change him aswell like the poster said above. Wait till we get river of souls so we can actually get a better interpretation of his character cause we have what 1 pov of him and like 5 from other peoples pov over 15 book series and we act like we know the character.

If he was using the TP that extensively, it should have shown up in his POV, and he might well have begun displaying the saa. And even if River of Souls clarifies things, that's no excuse - if we need that information for the book, then it should be in the book. The series should be capable of standing alone, without any other books or add ons. RoS is made of deleted scenes - if these scenes were important to understanding the changes to Demandred's character in the book, they should have been in the book, or the important information should have been conveyed another way. Otherwise the decision to remove that information was wrong. Outriggers, encyclopaedia, world books, Word of God - these are all things to flesh out some of the background, and provide interesting but non-vital information. They should not be needed to make sense of the series.

 

Moridin's desire for release (couldn't he just balefire himself?).

How would that help? He'd still get woven back in in the future, when what he wants is oblivion.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can understand a lot of people disliking how the character was pulled off, but I really enjoyed Demandred. I especially enjoyed seeing things from his perspective, to the point that I found his death really disappointing. I've always liked villains who are more sympathetic and relatable than pure bwa-ha-ha evil. Demandred seemed to have very little interest in the Dark One's cause or philosophy; he just wanted revenge on the guy who beat him at everything and stole the woman he loved. I find that a lot more enjoyable as a motivation than Semirhage's sadism, or Moridin's desire for release (couldn't he just balefire himself?).

 

It's a near certainty that more Wheel of Time books are coming, considering how profitable the series is. I hope they bring Demandred back at some point. Maybe his soul could return through a new character being born? It's not as though the Dark One is in a position to trap him anymore.

There is only going to be the encyclopedia after that no more books.

If true, that's extremely sad. I want to know what happens with the Seanchan, Rand's kids, and the rest of the characters.

 

I'm not really convinced that is true, though, even if they say it. Star Wars was supposed to be over, but now we have another one coming in 2015.

It's true, we have already been told this by Team Jordan. RJ was very much against any type of shared world scenario. He was the Creator and it wasn't until the very end that he even allowed this main sequence to be finished. TJ has cited RJ's wishes and not wanting to tarnish his legacy with spin offs where the quality is hard to regulate. In addition there is little to no source material sonit would essentially be other autors creating stories in his world. The thought of WoT ending up like Star Wars or those D&D marketing materials/books should make anyone shudder. Just a terrible idea.

 

 

Wait till we get river of souls so we can actually get a better interpretation of his character cause we have what 1 pov of him and like 5 from other peoples pov over 15 book series and we act like we know the character.

You say you get my point and then finish with this? It's not about us totally knowing the character. It's about the change in how he was presented and he did change. There was nothing in the other forsaken thoughts or his own actions previously to suggest the Dem we get in AmoL was undergoing some form of transformation. People are basically making up guesses/excuses as to why he changed.

[Lord D]

Mr Ares, in my opinion you wanted Dem to be in Murandy, and now rubbish Shara because Dem wasn't in Murandy.  Shara was MUCH better than Murandy would have been, especially given all the build-up that suggested Dem had a huge army.

[Vambram]

 

That really is beside the point Vam. Demandred was presented one way up until AMoL and then an entirely different way in AMoL. Just to touch a couple of things he went from saying Generals don't lead from the front and fight beside their men, to leading from the front and fighting beside his men. He wanted LTT dead but was never overly concerned with who did it and ordered others to do so. Now he does noting but rave like a moron in a cring worthy fashion and insists LTT has to die by his own hand.  Bottom line the character changed from how he was presented earlier in the series. That can't be argued. Perhaps we will see some of why it happened in "River of Souls".

i understand your point and even that in demandreds pov about generals. But i think your misunderstanding the context. What he was doing in WH was trying to assault other channelers directly one v circles unaided and being in the thick of the battle, in aMOL he was sitting way in the back of the heights with people surrounding him to absorb channeling blows as the sharans did many times. Do you think the dark one might have said take part in the battle and try and draw lews therin out. If i was the dark one i would have told him to lead the battle and when hes not commanding to take part as the most prominent channeler there.

 

Mat takes part in the battle several times and when he isnt ordering troops about hes making jokes and saying the word bloody and goat several times and teasing kareed. Instead of doing that demandred was taking his spare time to attack the battle with sakarnen and his circle which is logical.

 

Also i forgot about the use of the true power, using it so much infront of the sharans to win them over all the time, could have helped change him aswell like the poster said above. Wait till we get river of souls so we can actually get a better interpretation of his character cause we have what 1 pov of him and like 5 from other peoples pov over 15 book series and we act like we know the character.

 

+1

 

Excellent answer to Suttree.

[dir ehlef]

That really is beside the point Vam. Demandred was presented one way up until AMoL and then an entirely different way in AMoL. Just to touch a couple of things he went from saying Generals don't lead from the front and fight beside their men, to leading from the front and fighting beside his men. He wanted LTT dead but was never overly concerned with who did it and ordered others to do so. Now he does noting but rave like a moron in a cring worthy fashion and insists LTT has to die by his own hand.  Bottom line the character changed from how he was presented earlier in the series. That can't be argued. Perhaps we will see some of why it happened in "River of Souls".

 

From Prologue to TGS

 

“She disobeyed,” Moridin said. “She was not to try to kill al’Thor.”

“She didn’t intend to,” Mesaana said hastily. “Our woman there thinks that the bolt of Fire was a reaction of surprise, not an intention to kill.”

“And what say you of this, Demandred?” Moridin said, glancing at the shorter man.

“I want Lews Therin,” Demandred said, his voice deep, his expression dark, as always. “Semirhage knows that. She also knows that if she’d killed him, I would have found her and claimed her life in retribution. Nobody kills al’Thor. Nobody but me.”

 

Does that not mean that Demandred wanted to do the deed himself?

[Barid Bel Medar]

There has been a lot of thought on whether Demandred's prophecies of the Wyld were really Rand. A lot of people believe so. 

 

However, Brandon has confirmed that they were actually about Demandred - when even Demandred thought he was messing with the prophecies. 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Feb 12th, 2013

AMOL Signing Report - Wetlander (Paraphrased)

 

WETLANDER

Was Bao the Wyld part of Sharan prophecy? If so, was Demandred co-opting their Dragon prophecies?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

"The Wyld" was part of Sharan prophecy; Demandred thinks he co-opted the Sharan version of the "dragon prophecies" but it was actually about him all along.

 

 

This means Demandred was the only one with the chance of killing Rand. Whether he would have is moot, but prophecy puts them both in position, and it apparently gives Demandred the possibility of winning. Which is more than any of the others - the Pattern/Prophecy has protected Rand from basically everything else. 

 

In addition to her role at Merrilor, Moiraine also saved Rand/ the world. He either would have died, or - as discussed above - been too impaired to win against the DO. 

 

Also, some interesting speculation. We have always been told that even when the Dragon goes over to the Shadow - it results in a draw. Which has always seemed strange. Perhaps Demandred was actually a pawn of the Pattern - a grand weaving of 3000+ years. If Rand had not had his VoG moment, he would most likely have ended up serving the Shadow. In this case, he would probably have had the Chodean Kal, Callandor, experience, and the Forsaken on his side. 

 

Demandred with his Ayyad, Sarkarnen and his own knowledge, quite possibly could have been set in place to kill Rand, and save the Pattern from total destruction. Obviously, it wouldn't be his intention to do so, and he would likely also die in the process - the Pattern wouldn't want him beyond that. However, he would have been the only one - some would say bold, others crazy - enough to defy the Shadow and attack Rand (who would probably be Nae'Blis). His hatred of Rand defined him - it lead to his downfall. But in the world of If, could it not also have been the Pattern's tool? It seems much like a back-up plan, like Fain was in case Rand actually did decide to kill the DO. 

 

This way you could take the prophecy of "he who is owned by the land" in two ways. 

One would be the reference to his hatred of Rand - who is one with the land. His hatred owned Demandred, so in a way, Rand owned him, he was so obsessed. 

 

Also, you could take it to mean he was a tool of the Pattern. If Rand turns - Demandred kills him. If not, then the Pattern discards him. 

In a way, it also makes sense in terms of Demandred's actions in aMoL. The Pattern could have woven him to be the commander over the Shadow precisely because of his hatred of Lews Therin. Demandred didn't kill everyone all at once, nor did he care about actually winning the Last Battle. All he did was to lure out Rand and face him. 

 

If say - Graendal or Moghedien were in Demandred's position, and had his skill with battle, they would have totally destroyed the armies of the Light and fought to kill - not to goad Rand. 

 

So, the Pattern sets up Demandred - the Last Battle hinges on him basically. (Even had Rand won, most of the people would be dead and the bulk of the remaining forces loyal to the Shadow) With Rand post - VoG, Demandred was no longer needed to kill Rand - however, still served the Pattern by being the cause of the Shadow's loss. When he died, everything fell to pieces. You could argue that the Shadow still could have won the battle - which indeed they could have - but if Demandred remained alive - there was NO chance of winning. 

 

It makes more sense this way - even though most of it is speculation. I prefer to fill in the gaps with Patterns, makes it much more vivid.

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares, in my opinion you wanted Dem to be in Murandy, and now rubbish Shara because Dem wasn't in Murandy.  Shara was MUCH better than Murandy would have been, especially given all the build-up that suggested Dem had a huge army.

Your opinion is wrong, and if that is what you have taken away from my posts you need to go back and read them properly. Murandy was a theory with evidence to support it (the only theory about Demandred's location that actually had evidence beyond "it's possible, I suppose"), but I never really had a dog in that fight. Demandred in Shara had no evidence to back it - if it did, I'm sure one of the people who believed that said evidence would have posted it at some point in the last 21 pages. They haven't, despite the challenge having been made. Nor was the evidence ever in evidence, as it were, prior to the release of this book - Demandred in Shara could not be conclusively ruled out, but had nothing in its favour and a few things against. Given that other theories for Demandred's location included the Borderlands and the Blight, and they had as much evidence, why conclude Shara? As for how much better it was than Murandy would have been, that's something that cannot be answered conclusively, because we got a version with Shara but have no version with Murandy to compare it to, and because different variations could be written on the same concept to make things better or worse. As it was, Shara was badly handled in many respects, but could have been done better by getting rid of those weaknesses (such as the Sharans being made centre stage in the light v Shadow conflict which had been raging without them for the last thirteen books). Also, what pointed to Demandred having a massive army? Was it the "My rule is secure. I gather for war" comment? Because that was used by every side in the argument. If there's anything else, please, go ahead and share.

 

 

That really is beside the point Vam. Demandred was presented one way up until AMoL and then an entirely different way in AMoL. Just to touch a couple of things he went from saying Generals don't lead from the front and fight beside their men, to leading from the front and fighting beside his men. He wanted LTT dead but was never overly concerned with who did it and ordered others to do so. Now he does noting but rave like a moron in a cring worthy fashion and insists LTT has to die by his own hand.  Bottom line the character changed from how he was presented earlier in the series. That can't be argued. Perhaps we will see some of why it happened in "River of Souls".

 

From Prologue to TGS

 

“She disobeyed,” Moridin said. “She was not to try to kill al’Thor.”

“She didn’t intend to,” Mesaana said hastily. “Our woman there thinks that the bolt of Fire was a reaction of surprise, not an intention to kill.”

“And what say you of this, Demandred?” Moridin said, glancing at the shorter man.

“I want Lews Therin,” Demandred said, his voice deep, his expression dark, as always. “Semirhage knows that. She also knows that if she’d killed him, I would have found her and claimed her life in retribution. Nobody kills al’Thor. Nobody but me.”

 

Does that not mean that Demandred wanted to do the deed himself?

And yet in the books written by RJ, his view is quite different - he does not need to do the deed himself, and indeed, he sends others to do it on his behalf. In other words, BS flatly contradicted RJ, and mischaracterised Demandred in the process. That difference in character requires an explanation that was lacking.

[Suttree]

Does that not mean that Demandred wanted to do the deed himself?

That was called out upon release as against character given his earlier plans and orders given to others to kill Rand. Don't forget this was one book that got split into three written by BS. Again it is a change and we get no explanation for why. Maybe we will in River of Souls.

[dir ehlef]

 

 

That really is beside the point Vam. Demandred was presented one way up until AMoL and then an entirely different way in AMoL. Just to touch a couple of things he went from saying Generals don't lead from the front and fight beside their men, to leading from the front and fighting beside his men. He wanted LTT dead but was never overly concerned with who did it and ordered others to do so. Now he does noting but rave like a moron in a cring worthy fashion and insists LTT has to die by his own hand.  Bottom line the character changed from how he was presented earlier in the series. That can't be argued. Perhaps we will see some of why it happened in "River of Souls".

 

From Prologue to TGS

 

“She disobeyed,” Moridin said. “She was not to try to kill al’Thor.”

“She didn’t intend to,” Mesaana said hastily. “Our woman there thinks that the bolt of Fire was a reaction of surprise, not an intention to kill.”

“And what say you of this, Demandred?” Moridin said, glancing at the shorter man.

“I want Lews Therin,” Demandred said, his voice deep, his expression dark, as always. “Semirhage knows that. She also knows that if she’d killed him, I would have found her and claimed her life in retribution. Nobody kills al’Thor. Nobody but me.”

 

Does that not mean that Demandred wanted to do the deed himself?

And yet in the books written by RJ, his view is quite different - he does not need to do the deed himself, and indeed, he sends others to do it on his behalf. In other words, BS flatly contradicted RJ, and mischaracterised Demandred in the process. That difference in character requires an explanation that was lacking.

I agree that Demandred's character changed under Brandon. But it was not in AMoL. We could see that the change had happened 2 books earlier at least. Unless you're calling TGS a part of AMoL, which I could understand.

[dir ehlef]

 

Remember, a good chunk of those 3000 years were spent in a dreamless sleep.

 

Indeed. Ishamael's insanity is a lot more realistic, as he spent so much time being around, affecting the world, constantly channeling, that slowly the degradation makes sense. Dem has been awake basically since the series started. Actually, less. And then the few viewpoints we see of him he's rather cold, calculating, strategic, intelligent. And then completely loses his mind in the last battle. It makes no sense.

 

As far as those saying he couldn't discern Rand from LTT and that LTT would want all the glory of winning the battle. Come on, like there's no glory in defeating the DO? That's the important battle. Dem acted like an utterly foolish general putting himself in harm's way. Winning the battle became secondary to serving his ego. A sign of an atrocious general. You win the battle. The victors write the history anyway.

I agree that Demandred has changed, but I don't believe that someone who kills 2 cities in the war of power [ that would be millions of innocents ] and feeds them all to trollocs just because of slighted honor, can be called rather cold, calculating and strategic. That's the act of a hot tempered passionate and impulsive person.

 

Try this quote from TGS from Graendal's POV : 

 

She was emotionless and controlled, true, but sometimes emotion was appropriate. It could drive a man like Demandred to actions that a more coolheaded person couldn’t even contemplate.

 

That actually describes someone who could do the attrocities attributed to him.

[Suttree]

That actually describes someone who could do the attrocities attributed to him.

Every single forsaken has similar atrocities attributed to them. Below is a good description on how they are still human and have human emotions.

 

RJ

The point is that they are human; they haven't gotten rid of human emotions, or human weaknesses except for a few physical ones. They are not gods, nor even demi-gods, though they seek to be and think they already are. But believe me, there is nothing they will not do to achieve their goals, no price too high to pay—especially if it is paid by someone else, or millions of someone elses.

 

Further not sure why you keep pulling quotes from post TGS and later. It would be helpful to grab them from earlier in the series if you are trying to build a case.

[dir ehlef]

Quote

 

Further not sure why you keep pulling quotes from post TGS and later. It would be helpful to grab them from earlier in the series if you are trying to build a case.

 

End Quote

 

Because I agree that the description and nature of Demandred changed under Brandon. But your post said he only changed in AMoL. I'm only pointing out that it happened in TGS not in AMoL, unless you mean that TGS is part of AMoL. I could accept that.

 

I'd also point out that although pre Brandon, Demandred was more grounded than after Brandon changed him, he still was not simply cold and calculating alone, he didn't kill those 2 cities for military/tactical reasons, but personal ones. That is not the act of a cool calculating general but rather a hotheaded and passionate person.

[Suttree]

Yes it is all part of AMoL. It was written with one book in mind and then split mid way through the process.

As I said above all the forsaken have commuted similar atrocities. There is nothing there that sets Dem apart or would show he was more crazy than the others. Lanfear tortured people in their sleep because she enjoyed it and Mesaana acted out jealousy in going after institutions of research because they said she was unfit:

 

[LoC: Prologue, The First Message, 56]

Her road to the Great Lord began when she was denied a place in the Collam Daan all those years ago. Unsuited for research, they had told her, but she could still teach. Well, she had taught, until she found how to teach them all!

[dir ehlef]

Yes it is all part of AMoL. It was written with one book in mind and then split mid way through the process.

 

 

As I said above all the forsaken have commuted similar atrocities. There is nothing there that sets Dem apart or would show he was more crazy than the others. Lanfear tortured people in their sleep because she enjoyed it and Mesaana acted out jealousy in going after institutions of research because they said she was unfit:

1. In that case, we agree fully. I now understand what you meant originally.

 

2. I'm quite aware that other forsaken have committed atrocities out of selfish and petty reasons, that is not my point. My point was that Demandred was called cold and calculating by a previous poster, I'd say that his actions with those 2 cities show that besides being supremely arrogant, he was passionate impulsive and hot tempered.[ That would be the opposite of cold and calculating.]

 

If he had captured those cites and either added them to the shadow's side by force, or had taken them for militaristic/tactical/strategic reasons while also getting revenge, that would show a cold and calculating mind. But we were told that he took them solely to get revenge, that shows impulsiveness and passion.

 

This does not mean he was a raging and screaming character with only one focus [ getting even with LTT and not caring about winning the LB unless it was a way to show his superiority to LTT], as Brandon portrays him to be in the later books. That indeed was a huge shift from what we knew of Demandred from the earlier books.

[Cybertrolloc]

There's a quote about one of the male forsaken transferring his hatred for LTT to Rand wholesale. Does it refer to Dem or Sam? Also was it from Lanfear (crazy McLiar anyway) or Semi?

 

There's 3 Dem PoVs iirc: LoC prologue, Cleansing, CoT Forsaken meeting, perhaps review those? :) There's certainly a theme of anger/hatred out of Dem, but it's from suspect PoVs usually.

 

Cheers to Barid Bel for making some lemonade. There's some unknowns with world structure (especially prophecy) that make these things difficult to find common ground on. Or at least would make for unreadably long posts to just cover the major possibilities.