How has your opinion of characters changed throughout the series?

[hatsoff]

 

Cadsuane - I was wary of this one at first, and then later I saw her for the manipulative jerk she was.  But I still liked her somewhat, since she tried to do good.  She just failed miserably, as Rand put it.

Errmm no she didn't. She saved his life multiple times over and had his back harder than almost anyone in the series. She also was responsible for his VoG moment even if it took a lucky break at the end.

 

 

 

Well let me clarify.  I'm not saying Cadsuane didn't do any good.  I mean, obviously she did save his life, and then later on her actions somehow (???) led him to be healed from the madness.  And I'm sure she did other good things too.  But that doesn't change the fact that she was a big jerk about it.  That's what I mean when I say she failed.

 

As someone else put it, she insisted on doing everything on her own terms.  It seemed like all her interactions with other people were aimed at manipulating them instead of caring for them.  Perhaps you could argue that she manipulated them because she cared for them. And perhaps that is true, but that just seems way too charitable to me.  All we really know is that she was interested in manipulating people.  And sure enough, that's what she did.  All the time.

[Ralenger]

Rand: The protagonist.  I liked him, throughout, even when wondering if he'd succumb to the the temptation of the True Power, even throughout his many mistakes, because we knew he was trying to become the person he thought he needed to be to defeat the shadow.

 

Mat: Didn't like him, the first two books.  He seemed arrogant, greedy and judgemental.  Then ... oh my, ultimately became my second favourite character.  While still being the same person, he demonstrates compassion, nobility, determination and self-sacrifice.  That's good writing.

 

Perrin: My favourite.  Steadfast and true, the rock Andor could break itself upon.  The one who will not shy away from a friend that can channel, will march to his own death if that is necessary, will help those who hate him because it's the right thing to do.

 

Egwene: Meh.  Started out irritating, improved, then went to arrogant and irritating.

 

Nyneave:  Started out arrogant and irritating, improved, Liked her in the last few books.

 

Thom: Awesome start to finish.

 

Elayne: Never liked her, at all.  A spoiled, selfish brat who laughs at Mat being raped by Tylin.  Her only saving grace was Birgitte.

[Ralenger]

 

 

Cadsuane - I was wary of this one at first, and then later I saw her for the manipulative jerk she was.  But I still liked her somewhat, since she tried to do good.  She just failed miserably, as Rand put it.

Errmm no she didn't. She saved his life multiple times over and had his back harder than almost anyone in the series. She also was responsible for his VoG moment even if it took a lucky break at the end.

 

 

 

Well let me clarify.  I'm not saying Cadsuane didn't do any good.  I mean, obviously she did save his life, and then later on her actions somehow (???) led him to be healed from the madness.  And I'm sure she did other good things too.  But that doesn't change the fact that she was a big jerk about it.  That's what I mean when I say she failed.

 

As someone else put it, she insisted on doing everything on her own terms.  It seemed like all her interactions with other people were aimed at manipulating them instead of caring for them.  Perhaps you could argue that she manipulated them because she cared for them. And perhaps that is true, but that just seems way too charitable to me.  All we really know is that she was interested in manipulating people.  And sure enough, that's what she did.  All the time.

 

Yeah, for someone so intent on teaching manners, she was really very rude.

[Suttree]

 As someone else put it, she insisted on doing everything on her own terms.  It seemed like all her interactions with other people were aimed at manipulating them instead of caring for them.  Perhaps you could argue that she manipulated them because she cared for them. And perhaps that is true, but that just seems way too charitable to me.  All we really know is that she was interested in manipulating people.  And sure enough, that's what she did.  All the time.

 

 We know it's true because we see her thinking about/working to better people constantly throughout the series(and hear more about it in RJ's notes). At the end of the she had her mission for the greater good and would not let anything get in the way of that. For her the mission is all. She would not suffer fools but almost unfailingly treats people as their actions dictate. Of course she also swore to do what is was right for Rand, not herself or the WT.

 

TPoD

Let me see. I can make you a few promises; perhaps they will set your mind at rest. I expect you to listen, of course - make me waste my breath, and you'll yelp for it - but I won't make you do what I want.... Oh, yes. Whatever I do, it will be for your own good; not mine, not the good of the White Tower, yours.

 

I find it somewhat odd that people get upset about Cads "manipulating" and yet have no problem that Moiraine was doing the exact same thing. Even when Cads often backed him to the hilt and Moiraine would go so far as to go behind his back and countermand his orders such as in attempting to get the Aiel to not corss the DW.

[lilltempest]

 

 As someone else put it, she insisted on doing everything on her own terms.  It seemed like all her interactions with other people were aimed at manipulating them instead of caring for them.  Perhaps you could argue that she manipulated them because she cared for them. And perhaps that is true, but that just seems way too charitable to me.  All we really know is that she was interested in manipulating people.  And sure enough, that's what she did.  All the time.

 

 We know it's true because we see her thinking about/working to better people constantly throughout the series(and hear more about it in RJ's notes). At the end of the she had her mission for the greater good and would not let anything get in the way of that. For her the mission is all. She would not suffer fools but almost unfailingly treats people as their actions dictate. Of course she also swore to do what is was right for Rand, not herself or the WT.

 

TPoD

Let me see. I can make you a few promises; perhaps they will set your mind at rest. I expect you to listen, of course - make me waste my breath, and you'll yelp for it - but I won't make you do what I want.... Oh, yes. Whatever I do, it will be for your own good; not mine, not the good of the White Tower, yours.

 

I find it somewhat odd that people get upset about Cads "manipulating" and yet have no problem that Moiraine was doing the exact same thing. Even when Cads often backed him to the hilt and Moiraine would go so far as to go behind his back and countermand his orders such as in attempting to get the Aiel to not corss the DW.

 

 

For the record, I hated Moiraine as well and thought the way she tried to manipulate and control Rand was detestable. I had far more respect for her after she humbled herself before him and thought it was completely called for so she could truly understand her errors. Although, after Mat rescued her, she seemed to regress back to "I'm the all-knowing goddess of Awesomeness" attitude again.

 

I would have loved to have seen how Cadsuane would have handled it if she had not been able to use her slapping/bossing/obnoxious/hypocritical crap ("show manners, you piece of garbage or I'll humiliate you in front of everyone and insult you some more because it's fun and no one else does it, but don't you dare treat me that way or I'll slap your face off!") with Rand. As much as I see everyone argue how "adaptable" she was, that would have been the true test. I know she would not have gone Moiraine's route - she just doesn't have it in her to behave that way - but I would have liked to have seen if she could have truly chosen a different path with Rand, and what that path would have been. Provided she was actually capable of adapting, that is. It might have been amusing, too...because I could see her being so blunt that she would've left Rand speechless sometimes.

[Ralenger]

 

 

 As someone else put it, she insisted on doing everything on her own terms.  It seemed like all her interactions with other people were aimed at manipulating them instead of caring for them.  Perhaps you could argue that she manipulated them because she cared for them. And perhaps that is true, but that just seems way too charitable to me.  All we really know is that she was interested in manipulating people.  And sure enough, that's what she did.  All the time.

 

 We know it's true because we see her thinking about/working to better people constantly throughout the series(and hear more about it in RJ's notes). At the end of the she had her mission for the greater good and would not let anything get in the way of that. For her the mission is all. She would not suffer fools but almost unfailingly treats people as their actions dictate. Of course she also swore to do what is was right for Rand, not herself or the WT.

 

TPoD

Let me see. I can make you a few promises; perhaps they will set your mind at rest. I expect you to listen, of course - make me waste my breath, and you'll yelp for it - but I won't make you do what I want.... Oh, yes. Whatever I do, it will be for your own good; not mine, not the good of the White Tower, yours.

 

I find it somewhat odd that people get upset about Cads "manipulating" and yet have no problem that Moiraine was doing the exact same thing. Even when Cads often backed him to the hilt and Moiraine would go so far as to go behind his back and countermand his orders such as in attempting to get the Aiel to not corss the DW.

 

 

For the record, I hated Moiraine as well and thought the way she tried to manipulate and control Rand was detestable. I had far more respect for her after she humbled herself before him and thought it was completely called for so she could truly understand her errors. Although, after Mat rescued her, she seemed to regress back to "I'm the all-knowing goddess of Awesomeness" attitude again.

 

I would have loved to have seen how Cadsuane would have handled it if she had not been able to use her slapping/bossing/obnoxious/hypocritical crap ("show manners, you piece of garbage or I'll humiliate you in front of everyone and insult you some more because it's fun and no one else does it, but don't you dare treat me that way or I'll slap your face off!") with Rand. As much as I see everyone argue how "adaptable" she was, that would have been the true test. I know she would not have gone Moiraine's route - she just doesn't have it in her to behave that way - but I would have liked to have seen if she could have truly chosen a different path with Rand, and what that path would have been. Provided she was actually capable of adapting, that is. It might have been amusing, too...because I could see her being so blunt that she would've left Rand speechless sometimes.

 

One of my favourite parts in the books was when Tam called out Cadsuane for bullying.  :)

[Suttree]

 

 

 As someone else put it, she insisted on doing everything on her own terms.  It seemed like all her interactions with other people were aimed at manipulating them instead of caring for them.  Perhaps you could argue that she manipulated them because she cared for them. And perhaps that is true, but that just seems way too charitable to me.  All we really know is that she was interested in manipulating people.  And sure enough, that's what she did.  All the time.

 

 We know it's true because we see her thinking about/working to better people constantly throughout the series(and hear more about it in RJ's notes). At the end of the she had her mission for the greater good and would not let anything get in the way of that. For her the mission is all. She would not suffer fools but almost unfailingly treats people as their actions dictate. Of course she also swore to do what is was right for Rand, not herself or the WT.

 

TPoD

Let me see. I can make you a few promises; perhaps they will set your mind at rest. I expect you to listen, of course - make me waste my breath, and you'll yelp for it - but I won't make you do what I want.... Oh, yes. Whatever I do, it will be for your own good; not mine, not the good of the White Tower, yours.

 

I find it somewhat odd that people get upset about Cads "manipulating" and yet have no problem that Moiraine was doing the exact same thing. Even when Cads often backed him to the hilt and Moiraine would go so far as to go behind his back and countermand his orders such as in attempting to get the Aiel to not corss the DW.

 

 

For the record, I hated Moiraine as well and thought the way she tried to manipulate and control Rand was detestable. I had far more respect for her after she humbled herself before him and thought it was completely called for so she could truly understand her errors. Although, after Mat rescued her, she seemed to regress back to "I'm the all-knowing goddess of Awesomeness" attitude again.

 

I would have loved to have seen how Cadsuane would have handled it if she had not been able to use her slapping/bossing/obnoxious/hypocritical crap ("show manners, you piece of garbage or I'll humiliate you in front of everyone and insult you some more because it's fun and no one else does it, but don't you dare treat me that way or I'll slap your face off!") with Rand. As much as I see everyone argue how "adaptable" she was, that would have been the true test. I know she would not have gone Moiraine's route - she just doesn't have it in her to behave that way - but I would have liked to have seen if she could have truly chosen a different path with Rand, and what that path would have been. Provided she was actually capable of adapting, that is. It might have been amusing, too...because I could see her being so blunt that she would've left Rand speechless sometimes.

 

 

But it really was the only option left to her, she couldn't have gone the Moiraine route even had it been in her(especially after the kidnapping). Moiraine touched on it:

 

TFoH

Rand will need both of you in the days to come. You handle his temper well – though I may say your methods are unusual. He will need people who cannot be driven away or quelled by his rages, who will tell him what he must hear instead of what they think he wants to.”

 

 

the WO's went further:

 

TPoD

"Most men will take what is offered, if it seems attractive and pleasant," Sorilea said. "Once, we thought of Rand al'Thor so. Unfortunately, it is too late to change the path we walk. Now, he suspects whatever is offered freely. Now, if I wanted him to accept something, I would pretend I did not want him to have it. If I wanted to stay close to him, I would pretend indifference to whether I ever saw him again." Once more, those eyes focused on Cadsuane, green augers. Not trying to see what lay inside her head. The woman knew.

 

With how much distrust there was for AS at that point her way was the only way:

 

ACoS

The al'Thor boy needed to be kept intrigued enough that he allowed her near him, and off-balance enough that she could nudge him where she wanted without him realizing. One way or another, anything that might interfere with that must be controlled or suppressed. Nothing could be allowed to influence him, or upset him, in the wrong way. Nothing.

 

As for people arguing she is "adaptable" not sure why they would even need to. We see it over and over in her various methods and RJ states flat out in his notes that she is "remarkably adaptable".  

 

 

 One of my favourite parts in the books was when Tam called out Cadsuane for bullying.  :)

 Unfortunately that one was a huge lost opportunity. It could have been a beautiful scene and instead we get Cads turned into a caricature version of herself and Brandon relies on fan gratifcation(ZOMG Cads got pwned!) to carry the scene while we get lowest common denominator plotwork. She would have been disgusted at any AS who would have to resort to OP use in that situation. It was not handled well at all. The sad thing is it didn't even make Tam look good.

[lilltempest]

 

One of my favourite parts in the books was when Tam called out Cadsuane for bullying.  :)

 

 

I loved that scene as well. I thought it was well past time for someone to call her on her behavior. What I actually liked even more was when Zen-Rand told Cadsuane it was past time for her to stop with the "affectation" of calling him 'boy'. The way he did it made her look childish and she seemed to know it. It was subtler than Tam calling her a bully, but effective in making Rand look more mature than her, in some ways, lol.

[Ralenger]

 

 

 

 As someone else put it, she insisted on doing everything on her own terms.  It seemed like all her interactions with other people were aimed at manipulating them instead of caring for them.  Perhaps you could argue that she manipulated them because she cared for them. And perhaps that is true, but that just seems way too charitable to me.  All we really know is that she was interested in manipulating people.  And sure enough, that's what she did.  All the time.

 

 We know it's true because we see her thinking about/working to better people constantly throughout the series(and hear more about it in RJ's notes). At the end of the she had her mission for the greater good and would not let anything get in the way of that. For her the mission is all. She would not suffer fools but almost unfailingly treats people as their actions dictate. Of course she also swore to do what is was right for Rand, not herself or the WT.

 

TPoD

Let me see. I can make you a few promises; perhaps they will set your mind at rest. I expect you to listen, of course - make me waste my breath, and you'll yelp for it - but I won't make you do what I want.... Oh, yes. Whatever I do, it will be for your own good; not mine, not the good of the White Tower, yours.

 

I find it somewhat odd that people get upset about Cads "manipulating" and yet have no problem that Moiraine was doing the exact same thing. Even when Cads often backed him to the hilt and Moiraine would go so far as to go behind his back and countermand his orders such as in attempting to get the Aiel to not corss the DW.

 

 

For the record, I hated Moiraine as well and thought the way she tried to manipulate and control Rand was detestable. I had far more respect for her after she humbled herself before him and thought it was completely called for so she could truly understand her errors. Although, after Mat rescued her, she seemed to regress back to "I'm the all-knowing goddess of Awesomeness" attitude again.

 

I would have loved to have seen how Cadsuane would have handled it if she had not been able to use her slapping/bossing/obnoxious/hypocritical crap ("show manners, you piece of garbage or I'll humiliate you in front of everyone and insult you some more because it's fun and no one else does it, but don't you dare treat me that way or I'll slap your face off!") with Rand. As much as I see everyone argue how "adaptable" she was, that would have been the true test. I know she would not have gone Moiraine's route - she just doesn't have it in her to behave that way - but I would have liked to have seen if she could have truly chosen a different path with Rand, and what that path would have been. Provided she was actually capable of adapting, that is. It might have been amusing, too...because I could see her being so blunt that she would've left Rand speechless sometimes.

 

 

But it really was the only option left to her, she couldn't have gone the Moiraine route even had it been in her(especially after the kidnapping). Moiraine touched on it:

 

TFoH

Rand will need both of you in the days to come. You handle his temper well – though I may say your methods are unusual. He will need people who cannot be driven away or quelled by his rages, who will tell him what he must hear instead of what they think he wants to.”

 

 

the WO's went further:

 

TPoD

"Most men will take what is offered, if it seems attractive and pleasant," Sorilea said. "Once, we thought of Rand al'Thor so. Unfortunately, it is too late to change the path we walk. Now, he suspects whatever is offered freely. Now, if I wanted him to accept something, I would pretend I did not want him to have it. If I wanted to stay close to him, I would pretend indifference to whether I ever saw him again." Once more, those eyes focused on Cadsuane, green augers. Not trying to see what lay inside her head. The woman knew.

With how much distrust there was for AS at that point her way was the only way:

 

ACoS

The al'Thor boy needed to be kept intrigued enough that he allowed her near him, and off-balance enough that she could nudge him where she wanted without him realizing. One way or another, anything that might interfere with that must be controlled or suppressed. Nothing could be allowed to influence him, or upset him, in the wrong way. Nothing.

 

As for people arguing she is "adaptable" not sure why they would even need to. We see it over and over in her various methods and RJ states flat out in his notes that she is "remarkably adaptable".  

 

 

 One of my favourite parts in the books was when Tam called out Cadsuane for bullying.  :)

 Unfortunately that one was a huge lost opportunity. It could have been a beautiful scene and instead we get Cads turned into a caricature version of herself and Brandon relies on fan gratifcation(ZOMG Cads got pwned!) to carry the scene while we get lowest common denominator plotwork. She would have been disgusted at any AS who would have to resort to OP use in that situation. It was not handled well at all. The sad thing is it didn't even make Tam look good.

 

I disagree.  We see Cadsuane as she has always been, faced with someone who is unafraid to stand up to her.  She was always willing to face others due to her paralis-net.

[lilltempest]

 

But it really was the only option left to her, she couldn't have gone the Moiraine route even had it been in her(especially after the kidnapping). Moiraine touched on it:

 

TFoH

Rand will need both of you in the days to come. You handle his temper well – though I may say your methods are unusual. He will need people who cannot be driven away or quelled by his rages, who will tell him what he must hear instead of what they think he wants to.”

 

 

the WO's went further:

 

TPoD

"Most men will take what is offered, if it seems attractive and pleasant," Sorilea said. "Once, we thought of Rand al'Thor so. Unfortunately, it is too late to change the path we walk. Now, he suspects whatever is offered freely. Now, if I wanted him to accept something, I would pretend I did not want him to have it. If I wanted to stay close to him, I would pretend indifference to whether I ever saw him again." Once more, those eyes focused on Cadsuane, green augers. Not trying to see what lay inside her head. The woman knew.

With how much distrust there was for AS at that point her way was the only way:

 

ACoS

The al'Thor boy needed to be kept intrigued enough that he allowed her near him, and off-balance enough that she could nudge him where she wanted without him realizing. One way or another, anything that might interfere with that must be controlled or suppressed. Nothing could be allowed to influence him, or upset him, in the wrong way. Nothing.

 

 

A couple of things...

 

Firstly, Moiraine doesn't know everything, despite her pretending that she does. Rand proved that more than once. I don't think she ever really understood Rand because she was too focused on manipulating him into doing whatever she wanted him to do.

 

Second, the Wise Ones don't really realize their errors either. He did not trust them for two reasons:

 

1. He knew they had forced Aviendha to follow him around and that Avi did not want to do so. He knew they were trying to use her, and any attraction he might feel for her, to manipulate him. That made them no better than Moiraine.

 

2.  He knew they had spied on his dreams. That, in and of itself, was enough reason to distrust them from that point on.

 

The Wise Ones showed him no respect at all with those two moves, so their whining over him not taking things from them freely was a bit of a joke. If someone has set traps for you, then spied on you in the one place you thought was safe, it makes sense not to trust anything they do or say or offer, since it most likely has either a catch or is yet another trap. Much like the AS, they made their own bed with Rand and they didn't like lying in it.

 

The bottom line is that there were other ways to get through to him other than submission, trickery, or bullying. The problem was that no one, save Nynaeve, wanted to bother to try to find any other way. Even at the height of his instability, he trusted Nynaeve because he knew she actually cared for him. What he said to her about it was heartbreaking, because he knew he was surrounded by people who wanted to manipulate, kill, bully, trick, and con him but still saw the truth that she truly cared about him and was the only one who did.

 

Cadsuane's methods worked by accident, not because they were superior...even she saw that she had failed, at one point, if you remember. That Rand gave her credit for getting him to the place he needed to be did not change the fact that she came very close to dooming the world with her manipulation and bullying of Rand. She pushed and pushed and pushed until she pushed him over the limit. That he was able to keep himself from destroying the world was not a credit to her, but to him. He was forced to face who he was, and what he was, and accept it, but the path there came damned close to destroying him and the Pattern itself. A different path would have been preferable, but she never considered it because playing games and bullying was easier and something with which she was comfortable. Had she been honest with him - and proven her honesty - things might have taken a much different path, because that was something Rand was no longer accustomed to by the time Cadsuane came strolling in acting like an ass. What's more, the entire Semirhage incident might not have happened or, at least, not happened the same way. Had she already built some trust with him, through work instead of bullying and being an obnoxious cow, he might not have sent her away. And, had Cadsuane bent her neck, for once, and apologized for what he had suffered at Semirhage's hands, and more importantly, shown human concern for him (instead of scoffing at him and acting like he should get over the fact he was just almost forced to kill the woman he loves),

 

But it's neither here nor there. I know you simply condone and support every single one of Cadsuane's actions and credit her completely for Rand's epiphany. I don't. I credit Rand with it and fault her for driving him to the brink....she just pushed him to the point where he was so lost and alone that he had to decide if there was anything in the world worth saving. That isn't heroic on her part at all, nor does it make her a good person. The path to hell is paved with good intentions...and hers almost destroyed the world. In the end, she turned out to be a supportive ally for him - her standing behind him at Merrilor proved that, as did her pride in his proposal of the Dragon's Peace - but she could have been something more to him, had she cared to be and bent her neck a bit.

 

Nynaeve was the closest thing to a mother Rand had, but she was more of an age to be a big sister. Cadsuane could've stepped in as an aunt type, if nothing else. Instead, she chose to make everything with him a battle of wills and to treat him like a nuisance, at best...an enemy, at worst. That she was surprised he had no gift for her in aMoL was amusing. After the way she had treated him - and the hypocritical way she had expected him to kiss her ass while she practically spat in his face at every turn - she would've had to be a fool to think he'd treat her as he did those he truly considered friend. I'm just disappointed he bothered with Egwene...hell, Cadsuane was more a friend to him than Egwene, and far less hostile, most times. And that's saying something.

[Suttree]

 I disagree.  We see Cadsuane as she has always been, faced with someone who is unafraid to stand up to her.  She was always willing to face others due to her paralis-net.

 

Sorry maybe you could expand a bit more? What do you mean by as she has always been?

 

She has dealt with those unafraid to stand up to her. It was one of the defining moments in her life and taught her the lesson that "what must be endured could be endured"

 

WH

 

In truth, Cadsuane sympathized with her. Somewhat. It was a lesson not everyone could learn in the Tower. She herself, full of pride in her new shawl and her own strength, had been taught by a near toothless wilder at a farm in the heart of the Black Hills.

 

 One moment she is asking a question "cooly" and the next is lashing out with the OP in a manner that we have never seen her do before. The plotwork was incredibly blunt, Cadsuane is dumbed down(something we see Brandon do time and again when two characters come into conflict) and again it allows fan gratification to carry the narrative. We see her almost unfailingly treat people based on their actions. If you earn respect you are giving it. Again she was turned into a caricature and there was little resemblance to the "remarkably adaptable" woman RJ discusses in his notes.

 

@lil

 

So you just are going to ignore what the books say? I mean it has been shown that he would not accept an open honest approach. He had been too jaded(for good reason) against AS at that point. We see her diagnosis of his "hardness" beng spot on. The WO's, Moiraine and Cads all hit on the same idea of what needs to be done. That is there for a reason, it's not just tossed out randomly. Once she relaized the extreme distrust he had for AS(something the books also make clear) this was the only appproach. He would not take "what is offered freely". There is not the slightest shred of evidence in the books that he would have when it came to AS.

 

Lastly I don't ever put words in your mouth and I thank you to not do so with me. I have said all along it took a "lucky break" for her methods to work. I credit Rand with a good deal for the epiphany, that said it wouldn't have happened without Cads and Rand tells us this flat out. Again she promised to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT. She backed him to the hilt a number of times, she saved his life, and she cared.

ACoS

 

And Cadsuane... Cadsuane touched Rand’s pale face, brushed strands of hair from his forehead. "Do not be afraid, boy," she said softly. "They made my task harder, and yours, but I will not hurt you more than I must."

 

Further there is nothing hypocritical in her approach. For most of the time around her, Rand acted like a spoiled child and was treated as such(started with the first meeting when he acted the bully tossing around threats and OP weaves). Again we see her treat people based on their actions. The fandom just can't seem to deal with someone calliing their precious DR on his actions half the time. How dare she!

[Barid Bel Medar]

Getting way off topic. I'm sure there's a thread around to discuss the subject somewhere.

[Suttree]

 I'm sure there's a thread around to discuss the subject somewhere.

  

[Arran]

I'm gonna have a field day with this thread! Don't worry, I'll include a tl:dr :P

[PhoenixUK]

a lot of replies in this thread seem to be about favourite characters, rather than how their opinion of specific characters changed over the series, which was the origina question