[Regimental Book Discussion] The effects of Ta'veren

[BFG]

This discussion covers all books through The Towers of Midnight. Do NOT post anything from AMoL!

 

So this month we're going to look at the effects the the three Ta'veren have on the world:

 

 

Ta'veren: A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.

 

It seems to me that although they all, to an extent, have a similar effect on bending chance the specific effects tend to be different:  for example

 

Rand: tDR (from Perrins POV)

 

"A wedding, good mistress? Why, we've had a lifetime of weddings. A plague of them. All in the last two days. There isn't a woman old enough to speak the betrothal remains unmarried, not in the whole village, not for a mile in any direction. Why, even Widow Jorath dragged old Banas through the arches, and they'd both sworn they'd never marry again. It was like a whirlwind just snatched everybody up. Rilith, the weaver's daughter, she started it, asking Jon the blacksmith to marry her, and him old enough to be her father and more. The old fool just took off his apron and said yes, and she demanded the arches be put up right then and there. Wouldn't hear of a proper wait, and all the other women sided with her. Since then we've had marriages day and night. Why, nobody's had any sleep at all hardly."

 

 

Mat: KoD (from Tuons POV)

 

“A strange coincidence, wouldn’t you say, Master Merrilin?” she said. “Encountering part of Toy’s army in the middle of an Altaran forest.”
   He stroked his long mustaches with a knuckle, failing to mask a small smile. “He’s ta’veren, my Lady, and you can never tell what will happen around a ta’veren. It’s always… interesting… when you travel with one of those. Mat has a tendency to find what he needs when he needs it. Sometimes before he knows he needs it.”

 

Perrin: tSR (Perrins POV)

 

"Of course," Verin said smoothly. "I have not had the opportunity to see it work before this. Or perhaps I have and did not know it."
   "What are you talking about? See what work?"
   "Perrin, when we arrived these people were ready to hold on here at all costs. You gave them good sense and strong emotion, but do you think the same from me would have shifted them, or from Tam, or Abell? Of any of us, you should know how stubborn Two Rivers people can be. You have altered the course events would have followed in the Two Rivers without you. With a few words spoken in... irritation? Ta'veren truly do pull other people's lives into their own pattern. Fascinating. I do hope I have an opportunity to observe Rand again."
   "Whatever it is," Perrin muttered, "it's to the good. The more people together in one place, the safer."
   "Of course. Rand does have the sword, I take it?"

 

So to me it seems that Rand fits the traditional explanation better, at least in the early books he bends chance around him, a boy can fall 3 stories and walk away unharmed, but a woman may trip over a stone and break her back...  I don't recall many examples of this with Mat and Perrin. 

 

The benefit that Perrin seems to get seems chiefly to be in leadership, people do what he thinks best even if it's the last thing they'd ever think of doing before he got there.  Both Mat and Rand show examples of this with the Seafolk, but Perrin seems to rely on it more.

 

Mat's even more intangible, because it's harder to define what happens to him due to ta'veren and what happens due to his luck.

 

 

So in short...

 

Are there actual differences in the effects the 3 ta'veren have? 

Who gains the most benefit from being ta'veren?

 

 

 

[F Horn of Valere]

More later when I have time, but in general, I think each has their own unique form of taveren as defined by what the Pattern needs them to do.

 

Rand - surrounding life threads change as an affirmation. They confirmed that he was the Dragon, remind him of the gravity of his role, demonstrate how he changed (end of tGS/start of ToM, to include environmental threads, not just threads from living people), and they prove of that change. 

 

Mat - His taveren-ness almost exclusively deals with luck. I have some more personal opinion on this, but.... no spoilers!

 

Perrin - His just deal with getting people to do what he needs them to do. He is not a natural leader, but rather, his leadership skill is enhanced, and the chance of respecting him for it is enhanced as well.

[BFG]

Except Mat's always been lucky, and he didn't turn into a ta'veren until just before Winternight, so his ta'veren isn't as simple as being luck.

 

tDR:

 

He knew he was lucky. He could remember always being lucky. But somehow, his memories from Emond's Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving. Certainly he had gotten away with a great deal, but he could remember also being caught in pranks he had been sure would succeed.

 

 

Interview: Jul, 2002

COT: 'Glimmers' Ebook Q&A (Verbatim)

Question

Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.

Robert Jordan

You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

 

 

Also Rand didn't need the ta'veren effect to be declared Dragon, that happened when he declared himself at Falme and again in the Stone.  Possibly you could argue that ta'veren had a lot to do with that, but the random occurrences seem almost irrelevant. 

[F Horn of Valere]

I'm not saying Mat's luck is from his taveren nature, but rather it serves to enhance it. He is already lucky, but this nature means that the very pattern will adjust to conform to his luck. Though.... my understanding of this is based an assumption I made from AMoL, so I can't really go into details beyond that, at least not here!

[Jeannaisais]

I'm shocked no one else has anything to say about the effects of being ta'veren......hmmm including myself.....I can do high intensity workouts at 5 am but I can't think....brilliant

[Andrej]

My brain isn't functioning too well either, tonight has been so boringggg.

 

Anyway, something of note I'd like to mention (or at least add) to Mat's ta'veren-ness are the rattling dice he senses. To me, it seems that part of his abilities allow sense when something monumental is going to happen and coupled with his luck the odds seem to always swing his way. I wish I had a better internet connection, or at least some of the books with me on the ship, so I could give some better examples.

[BFG]

My brain isn't functioning too well either, tonight has been so boringggg. Anyway, something of note I'd like to mention (or at least add) to Mat's ta'veren-ness are the rattling dice he senses. To me, it seems that part of his abilities allow sense when something monumental is going to happen and coupled with his luck the odds seem to always swing his way. I wish I had a better internet connection, or at least some of the books with me on the ship, so I could give some better examples.

 

Good shout.

 

 

Interview: Sep 22nd, 2012

Orem Signing Report - Zas (Verbatim)

Loialson

Mat's dice in his head. Are they real? Do they come from Sindhol? Are they from his ta'veren nature, or is it just a plot device? (laughter)

Brandon Sanderson

Everything that I've read in the notes indicates that they are from his ta'veren nature, and that they are a manifestation of being ta'veren [?] related to his [?]

 

from terez's interview database (came across it the other day).

 

 

 

 

So a new question...

 

We're told that Taveren affect the pattern in good and bad measures equally.  Mat has a reason to not affect that pattern adversely, his 'luck' twists everything around him so that only good stuff happens, and we see it with Rand, but I don't see any evidence of this happening with Perrin, is it just that he's not strongly enough taveren to affect the pattern that much?

 

Spoilers for tGS & ToM (since I don't think Jea has reached that far yet)

 

 

 

in tGS Rand descends pretty deep into bad stuff and starts to only affect the pattern in negative ways.  Is this due to his being taveren or is it more closely tied to the Dragon in one with the land, seen more clearly with the apples in ToM?  What do you think?

 

 

[F Horn of Valere]

tGS and ToM spoiler:

 

 

I think that the "balance" idea of taveren is actually an incorrect assumption by the people in Randland. I think Rand's negative-ness, and later positive-ness disprove that idea. I think that balance is a common side effect, but is changed by the outlook by the taveren. When Rand was down on life, everything was bad. When he was high on life, it was only good. When he was more just curious and trying to figure everything out, it was balanced.

 

[BFG]

tGS and ToM spoiler

 

 

 

When I first read through I assumed that taveren were to bring 'balance' to the force pattern.  Rands negative effect in Storm proved me wrong, but I now find it hard to determine what a taveran is in a satisfactory way.  If a taverens affect is tied in to the 'mood' of a character then it seems a bit cheap.  You could argue that with Mat and Perrin it forced them to become the people they needed to be, but with Rand not so much.  Additionally he's the only one we see 'negative' side effects for, so I wonder if some of his stuff isn't tied into being the Dragon, as much as anything else.  Certainly Apples were tied in to his being the Dragon and not a taveren effect, but I don't think the rest breaks down so easily.

 

 

[F Horn of Valere]

tGS and ToM

 

 

I don't think mood has anything to do with it... but I do think Rand's mood was indicative of what caused it. I think it has more to do with the state of the soul. Rand's soul was in a very dark place, which turned both his tavern effects and mood to be very dark.

 

[Davrick]

So a new question...

 

We're told that Taveren affect the pattern in good and bad measures equally.  Mat has a reason to not affect that pattern adversely, his 'luck' twists everything around him so that only good stuff happens, and we see it with Rand, but I don't see any evidence of this happening with Perrin, is it just that he's not strongly enough taveren to affect the pattern that much?

 

As far as I know Perrin doesn't seem to affect the pattern that much.  Unless you want to count his special hammer and how the people who helped him blindly figured out what to do.  As for Mat sure his luck makes it so that mostly good things happen to him.  A wall fell on him and some people around him have died.  Which may or may not be because of his luck, but because he is Taveren and a major player for the light side.  Also lets not forget about the people who Mat happens to use his luck against.  They lost money or their lives because Mat got lucky.

[Andrej]

Good points Dav.

[BFG]

That's an excellent point about perspective regarding Mats gambling, but at best that was only partly caused by taveran, most of it was because of his luck.  As such the positive effect and negative effect that cancel each other out doesn't change the taveran stuff.  But having siad that the wall, while bad for Mat in the short term, was the mechanism by which he met Tuon.

 

Reads sentence, tries to make it make sense, fails, shrugs.

 

I do find it interesting that Rand is the only one that seems to affect the Pattern with random events unconnected to himself.

[Davrick]

It's just because he is a strong Taveren.

[BFG]

Rand is the strongest of them, no doubt, but Perrin and Mat are supposed to be at or close to the level of Artur Hawkwing and he pretty much took over the world.  Having said that he was also manipulated by Ishy, so he wasn't imune to interference.

 

Incidently did we ever see any sign of Rand being tracked due to the taveran effects post DR?

[Davrick]

As far as I know.. No he wasn't.  Post DR he basically had his own army and stuff.

[dicetosser1]

you will notice that mat tends to attract dangerous situations. 
He overhears rahvin and comar at just the right time. he runs into the gholam etc. this seems to be a combination of tavereness and BAD luck    how many times has he said "what happened to my bloody luck?"

 

 

Perrin basically shifted the fate of a bunch of nations. His effect is that people are swayed by him. Its not always something huge   look at the al'seen farm

[Andrej]

Hmm... I hadn't really looked at from that angle with Mat. So could you say that Mat is lucky enough to find himself in those unlucky situations? Normally with him being there, things go his way and has shown to change the fate of certain events.

[dicetosser1]

I think his luck puts him in or draws  him to unlikely situations. Violence is a very unlikely situation let alone impromptu armies!

[BFG]

I think I have to disagree about Mat's bad luck putting him in dangerous situations.

 

But this has more to do with his character, he (like all the main characters) would rather be in a position to help his friends out than not.  The example with Rahvin is a perfect example of this, although he moans about it, he does the 'right' thing and would rather do the 'right' thing then not hear about the danger and find out that Eg and Nyn had died or were captured, or turned...  So despite his protests I think he'd consider it lucky, despite everything, that he's in those situations.