The "Vileness"

[jedman67]

Many Sisters, mostly Red, reference, talk about or think about the "Vileness" that occured some twenty-odd years ago. Several went into exile or penance as a consequence of the event.

Is the vileness related to the death of the Amyrlin (via BA) who first heard the Foretelling that Moriane and Siuan witnessed?

 

Any info would be appreciated.

[Tsukibana]

I believe the "Vileness" refers to Reds capturing and gentling male channelers before the could be brought to the Tower. I believe that Owyn (Thom's nephew) was a victim

of this, explaining why Moiraine offered him those names in exchange for escorting the Super Girls.

[yoniy0]

Indeed, Tamra's murder was directly performed by Black sisters in a sanctioned operation. The Vileness refers to events beginning at that time, where the Black has influenced the Red to unknowingly assist in the effort to hunt down and either kill or Gentle the Dragon Reborn. Events became so tangled that when they eventually did see light, all three Red Sitters were exiled (of the three, I recall Tsutama, the Highest, and Toveine).

 

I'm not sure about this next thing, but I believe Sierin's murder at the hands of non-Black Reds was also set in motion as part of this scheme. Someone should probably remark further on it.

[Suttree]

The vileness came out of BA memeber Jarna Malari torturing Tamra Opsenya and finding out the Dragon had been reborn. This started a search and destory mission in which the BA started slaughtering any man who was even hinted at being overly lucky. She influneced Galina Casban to have the Red's begin illegally gentling men without bringing them back to the WT. Ishy found out about the whole thing upon his release and placed Jarna in that a ter'angreal of which the AS did not know the use where she was tortured over the course of ten days before dying.

 

Edit: yoniy0 is correct about Seirin as well.

[Tsukibana]

I thought the BA was killing woman on the rosters created by Moiraine and Suian?

My belief was that the Vileness had nothing to do with the BA. Or was the gentling tossed in

because Tamra held back the exact TIME the Dragon had been reborn?

[Suttree]

I thought the BA was killing woman on the rosters created by Moiraine and Suian?

My belief was that the Vileness had nothing to do with the BA. Or was the gentling tossed in

because Tamra held back the exact TIME the Dragon had been reborn?

They did do that as well but it wasn't "the vileness".

 

The gentling was tossed in to skirt the oaths around using the OP to kill. They did indeed not know that the DR was only an infant and that way the BA had Reds doing their dirty work for them as well.

[Tsukibana]

Check.

[michellem]

We see this in New Spring; Siuan and Moiraine dicscuss it, that the AMyrlin must have managed to withhold the information about the age of the DR. Siuan hears a story about a blacksmith who dies unexpectantly, and Moiraine herself sees a BA sister (I can't remember her name right now) kill the prince of Kandor after he had a big fall that he survived.

[Tsukibana]

so, to clarify:

The Vileness WAS the gentling of male channelers without proper trial and protocol, often leaving them to just

die rather than taking care of them afterwards (ie Logain). (Query: Was that SOP, or a special treatment for a False Dragon?)

However, the Vileness was ALSO influenced by the Blacks in order to attempt to remove the Dragon.

[capuga]

so, to clarify:

The Vileness WAS the gentling of male channelers without proper trial and protocol, often leaving them to just

die rather than taking care of them afterwards (ie Logain). (Query: Was that SOP, or a special treatment for a False Dragon?)

However, the Vileness was ALSO influenced by the Blacks in order to attempt to remove the Dragon.

Correct. Except they did take care of Logain after gentling him. He was kept in comfort in the White Tower until escaping during Elaida's coup of Suian.

[Suttree]

so, to clarify:

The Vileness WAS the gentling of male channelers without proper trial and protocol, often leaving them to just

die rather than taking care of them afterwards (ie Logain). (Query: Was that SOP, or a special treatment for a False Dragon?)

However, the Vileness was ALSO influenced by the Blacks in order to attempt to remove the Dragon.

The BA also went on a killing spree of lucky men during that time.

[Tsukibana]

I was talking about the WT taking care of male channelers in general: False Dragon specific, or was Owyn supposed to live his last days shadowed by an Accepted as well?

the BA would have let Logain die, except the Vileness had already ended by Logain's capture

[Suttree]

It varies from AS to AS. We know for instance Cadsuane had a method of post care that allowed men to integrate back into society and live an almost normal life span without succumbing to depression.

[Tsukibana]

yeah, didn't she bond one of them?? why do I remember that... 

[yoniy0]

Cadsuane went above and beyond, but all male channelers are to be taken to the Tower, tried and Gentled there, and then be cared after until they pass. Moiraine told Thom that the Reds who Gentled Owyn shouldn't have done what they did.

[Tsukibana]

@yoniy0:

source? having RL debate over this, can't find sources.

[Hagazussa]

Well almost normal life spans and almost normal life spans. The only one of Cadsuane's men that we know any details for lived for 10 years an other that that there is a quote saying they lived for short of normal years which can really mean anything. Now as for not dying from depression, well something did kill them short of normal lifespans and we do know gentling catches up to men so chances are they did eventually die of depression if severing do not cause some other kind of damage that eventually will kill you. That being said Cadsuane is sort of a special case, no other Aes Sedai have managed to get former male channelers to survive like that.

 

We do not know if male channelers who have not caused any harm is kept at the Tower and then kept alive as the only one ever seen is Logain and it is hinted that other false dragons are kept that way as well, however my guess is that the Tower will care for the men at least to the point of giving them room and board and some care an comfort, however I do think that if a male channeler who is just some unfortunate man who was found he was able to channel want to leave and return to his family after he is gentled that he would be allowed to do so as there would be little or no reason to force him to stay, but this is off course speculation.

 

Now when it comes to men being taken to the Tower to be tried before gentling I really do not think that have much to do with kindness but more to do with doing things a bit orderly, the Tower do not want the Reds running around like a lynch mob, for the men I doubt it matters much if they are tied to a tree in their backyard and it is done there or if it is done in the Traitor's Court at the White Tower, most do not care to live afterwards anyway and keeping them alive in such a state is really just a cruelty, some get helped by Cadsuane to survive for a while and I assume some very few manage on their own, but for the wast majority it is a fate worse than death and I doubt it then matters where it is done, off course if you are left to a lynch mob that might matter.

[jedman67]

 

so, to clarify:

The Vileness WAS the gentling of male channelers without proper trial and protocol, often leaving them to just

die rather than taking care of them afterwards (ie Logain). (Query: Was that SOP, or a special treatment for a False Dragon?)

However, the Vileness was ALSO influenced by the Blacks in order to attempt to remove the Dragon.

The BA also went on a killing spree of lucky men during that time.

Does this mean that the BA assumed the DR would be ta'averen, or simply that unconscious channelers use the power in a way that makes them seem to be "lucky"?

So the SOP would be that False Dragons are tried and gentled, and then are either left to live in comfort then die of depression in the WT, and regular male channelers are tried and gentled; then let go?

 

What evidence is there that the DR would be a channeler (pre Rand Al'thor), considering that several false dragons were not channelers?

[Hagazussa]

Does this mean that the BA assumed the DR would be ta'averen, or simply that unconscious channelers use the power in a way that makes them seem to be "lucky"?

 

Both probably however mostly I think they just wanted to cut drastically into the male channeler population and hope they got him so I do think they where going by the assumption that a unconscious would do things that would make them appear lucky to those who did not know what they where looking for.

 

So the SOP would be that False Dragons are tried and gentled, and then are either left to live in comfort then die of depression in the WT, and regular male channelers are tried and gentled; then let go?

 

All severed channelers will die of depression unless they manage to find something to live for and very few manage to do that, however the White Tower have no interest in tormenting these men so once they are gentled they are kept at the White Tower in relative comfort until they die of depression or manage to kill themselves, meaning that they are given good and clothing, a place to stay and are watched over and as we see with Logain treated kindly. Now we only know that former false dragons are kept this way as no regular male channeler is brought in an gentled during the series so what happens to them would be anyone's guess but I doubt that a farm boy who never hurt anyone with his powers would be treated worse than Logain who killed Aes Sedai and more or less devastated a whole nation with a war. Also yes all of them have to be brought in for trial, the way it works is that channeling is a crime for men and it have to be dealt with like other crimes, with a trial, so even if everyone know the outcome of that trial proper procedure have to be followed. It is the same as if cops know a guy is guilty and that he will get capital punishment in our world, they can not just go around and shoot him on the street, he have to have a trial and so on, there have to be some order.

 

What evidence is there that the DR would be a channeler (pre Rand Al'thor), considering that several false dragons were not channelers?

 

False dragons have nothing to do with the actual Dragon Reborn, they are men who either get it into their head that they could be the dragon, just like some cult leaders in our world get it into their heads that they are Jesus, or they are general glory seekers who know it is a good, or bad if you want, way to get attention. I think most people in Wheel of Time or at least those who know a bit about it like Aes Sedai assumed that the Dragon Reborn would be able to channel, at least from Mo and Siuan's discussions in New Spring they indicate that it is a well known fact that the Dragon Reborn would be a channeler.

[Tsukibana]

Well said, Haga.

[Tsukibana]

Hah. just thought of something - Birgitte said she's "always an archer"...

A channeler reborn - always a channeler?? Is the ability to touch the Source an intrinsic part of the soul?

[yoniy0]

It is, as well as having a genetic component. However, there are entire Ages where access to the True Source is denied to all, in which a 'channeling' soul can be reborn and never touch it.

[Suttree]

To be clear with Cads method we have no idea if 10 years is shot or long for her method. We don't know that they died of depression either although that is one way to inetpret it. One would think if you use this method and they are able to dedicate themselves to something they would last much longer than 10 years given the life span in this world.

 

RJ

Another story said that long ago she had removed a sitting king from his palace and taken him to Tar Valon to be gentled. In truth, Cadsuane had "a nose" for men who can channel. She faced more of them than any other sister living; she herself said more than any two Reds, maybe more than any ten. That seems to indicate at least twenty of them by that time, maybe more. She brought more of them to Tar Valon than any other sister. Of these, she never had to kill one, either because she could not capture him or because he was trying to escape. These men have ranged over the years from farmboys to nobles to the king of Tarabon, but one and all, they made much better adjustments to their fate than is considered normal. They eventually died short of a normal span, but they lived considerably longer than usual.

[jedman67]

 

So the SOP would be that False Dragons are tried and gentled, and then are either left to live in comfort then die of depression in the WT, and regular male channelers are tried and gentled; then let go?

 

All severed channelers will die of depression unless they manage to find something to live for and very few manage to do that, however the White Tower have no interest in tormenting these men so once they are gentled they are kept at the White Tower in relative comfort until they die of depression or manage to kill themselves, meaning that they are given good and clothing, a place to stay and are watched over and as we see with Logain treated kindly. Now we only know that former false dragons are kept this way as no regular male channeler is brought in an gentled during the series so what happens to them would be anyone's guess but I doubt that a farm boy who never hurt anyone with his powers would be treated worse than Logain who killed Aes Sedai and more or less devastated a whole nation with a war. Also yes all of them have to be brought in for trial, the way it works is that channeling is a crime for men and it have to be dealt with like other crimes, with a trial, so even if everyone know the outcome of that trial proper procedure have to be followed. It is the same as if cops know a guy is guilty and that he will get capital punishment in our world, they can not just go around and shoot him on the street, he have to have a trial and so on, there have to be some order.

 

What about men who simply wish to return to their lives after being gentled, far away from any AS? They would presumably WANT to leave the WT and TV - i certainly would not wish to live near such a reminder. 

False Dragons, for the crime of anarchy - raising armies and whatnot - may need to be kept in the tower, much like Logain was. 

 

I'm not sure where we have any indications that men channeling is a crime (besides for egwenes Accepted test); its simply a precaution since the breaking to gentle the men before they go mad, so they do not cause another breaking. 

[Hagazussa]

 

 A channeler reborn - always a channeler?? Is the ability to touch the Source an intrinsic part of the soul?

 

Yes if channeling is possible in the age someone is born into then that person will always be a channeler, it is a part of the soul.

 

 

 To be clear with Cads method we have no idea if 10 years is shot or long

for her method. We don't know that they died of depression either

although that is one way to inetpret it. One would think if you use this

method and they are able to dedicate themselves to something they would

last much longer than 10 years given the life span in this world.

 

It is a good possibility many of them lived for longer than 10 years, I merely said that the one one that we get any details about lived for 10 years. We also do not know if these men died of depression however it is a fair guess as all of them died short of normal years and all of them shared a condition which do kill by depression, like I said there could be some other kind of side effect of gentling that reduce their life expectancy however if so that is never mentioned in the books. We do however know that a severed channeler can function rather well for a while and then have gentling catch up with him, that exact term is used in the books. Logain is rather functional when he and Siuan and the rest first leaves the White Tower, he argues with Siuan, flirt with girls, save the others in his party on one time and even go hunting, he seam to be rather well, then suddenly boom over two weeks he get to a state where he do not walk unless showed in one direction or another and he had to be spoon fed and everyone just assumed he would drop dead any moment. It is then a fair guess that gentling can catch up with other severed channelers even if they with help could have relatively long and probably happy lives before that happens. Something kill Cadsuane men and they only have one thing in common so then it have to be that thing killing them.

 

What about men who simply wish to return to their lives after being

gentled, far away from any AS? They would presumably WANT to leave the

WT and TV - i certainly would not wish to live near such a reminder.

 

Like I said it is anyone's guess but I would assume that if a man wanted to leave and he had not caused any trouble and where just some unfortunate man who just happened to be able to channel that once he was gentled he would be allowed to go whenever he wanted, that is what I believe, there would be no reason to hold him but like I said that is just speculation.

 

I'm not sure where we have any indications that men channeling is a

crime (besides for egwenes Accepted test); its simply a precaution since

the breaking to gentle the men before they go mad, so they do not cause

another breaking.

 

Well the wording of taking them in for a trial and then gentling is used many times in the books, if someone is put on trial for something that usually means that something is considered a crime.