Taim's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Barid Bel Medar]

There was no reveal like that. The first time Rand actually confirms he knows Taim is evil is in aMoL. However, it is clear he knows beforehand. 

 

I don't think this is a particularly big one, Taim's loyalty was always in question, Rand never trusted him and was always suspcious. Not of being a Dreadlord, but definitely didn't trust him. 

 

Then Logain comes in CoT and reveals his suspicions. Rand doesn't act on it, he avoid the subject because he doesn't want to deal with it, and while he is sceptical of Logain's words, the "seed is sown" so to speak.

 

My own opinion is that Rand does believe him, but he doesn't want to confront the possibility, because he is afraid to go back to the BT - so he sends Logain off to buy time.  However, that's not confirmed. Point being, Logain brings up Taim being a DF - which sits in Rand's mind. 

 

I think the certainty comes after his VoG moment. I think he may have accepted the fact that he was avoiding the Black Tower mess. However, the actual confirmation comes when he can't Travel to it. Having Lews Therin's memories, he would know about the Dreamspike, and know that only one of the Forsaken could have set it - or taught Taim how to set it. 

 

Apart from that, the Black Tower stuff was sorted out and Taim revealed - Rand got news before the scene where he tries to kill Taim. 

[mbuehner]

Given how many of LTT's close friends and peers betrayed him and became Forsaken, its not surprising that his paranoia leaked into Rand. Of course its not paranoia when everybody really is out to get you.

[Vambram]

There was no reveal like that. The first time Rand actually confirms he knows Taim is evil is in aMoL. However, it is clear he knows beforehand. 

 

I don't think this is a particularly big one, Taim's loyalty was always in question, Rand never trusted him and was always suspcious. Not of being a Dreadlord, but definitely didn't trust him. 

 

Then Logain comes in CoT and reveals his suspicions. Rand doesn't act on it, he avoid the subject because he doesn't want to deal with it, and while he is sceptical of Logain's words, the "seed is sown" so to speak.

 

My own opinion is that Rand does believe him, but he doesn't want to confront the possibility, because he is afraid to go back to the BT - so he sends Logain off to buy time.  However, that's not confirmed. Point being, Logain brings up Taim being a DF - which sits in Rand's mind. 

 

I think the certainty comes after his VoG moment. I think he may have accepted the fact that he was avoiding the Black Tower mess. However, the actual confirmation comes when he can't Travel to it. Having Lews Therin's memories, he would know about the Dreamspike, and know that only one of the Forsaken could have set it - or taught Taim how to set it. 

 

Apart from that, the Black Tower stuff was sorted out and Taim revealed - Rand got news before the scene where he tries to kill Taim. 

 

Thank you, Barid.

[Magus sedai]

Yes there's a scene in ToM I believe where Rand thinks on how things are much worse than he had thought when traveling doesn't work, but he dare not go there the trap may be to good for him to escape.

Anyway the Taim arc makes sense to me, the shadow went for him, freed him, Dem trained him then sent him to rand after his proclamation on men who can channel thinking LTT would form another hundred companions, when he left Taim in charge of the farm Dem moved on and was occupied whith his Shara conquest, don't forget Dem alliance with Sem and Mess was focused on places with potential OP forces to either break or bring to the LB

[ZorValachan]

 

Not sure if  it struck anyone else as odd, but it seemed off that Moridin/the Dark One, gave Taim his BT title as his Chosen name. I assume in the Forsaken gatherings, they would speak their native tongue, the old tongue. As otherwise they'd all be sounding differently to each other than they are used to as well as holding a lot of contempt for this new 'inferior' age. But anyway, Moridin presents him to the other Chosen as M'Hael. And now they have to call him M'Hael. Which in their native tongue is 'Leader'. Lanfear was known as the only Chosen to Chose her own name. It's said 100 times (ok, maybe not 100 times, but at least more than a handful of times) in the in the series. So now Taim choses his own Chosen name.

 

Precedents on naming Chosen:

1) Enemies name you back in the AoL and you took it as a badge of Pride (everyone except Lanfear)

2) Lanfear chose her own name

3) The Dark One specifically names you (all the Chosen brought back after death)

 

I guess I just think that if the Last Battle was a 'Last War', then the Light would name him and as this is a short time the DO would. If the DO named him M'Hael, I thin kit would have brought up some questions (at least internally) with the Chosen.  Having to call someone 'Leader' would be similar to calling the Nae'Blis. or at least would have had more sarcasm dripping when they spoke this name.

 

I compare it to Immortals Ghengis, Attila, and Stalin meeting up with Sadam Hussein in the 1990s and immortal Hitler telling them Saddam's new name is The Boss.

[Kahsm]

Taim, as I predicted, was an enormous let down. Another crappy big-bad who wasn't even that big. All the potential in him was sucked out (literally?) by Demandred. As if Taim's entire role was to convince us that Dem was as bad ass as we were told without actually needing story line to prove it.

 

Heaven forbid we have a legit wildcard character in WOT. If anyone should have gone shadow it'd be Logain with his likely-madness-driven need for power to protect himself from the world. Seems like a ripe candidate for the DO. But he resisted you say? Yeah because Taim was dumb and tried to FORCE him. Had one of the chosen personally just offer him the strength to protect himself and they probably could of had him.

[Mardragon]

 

Why did he use AOL language ( calling Rand's Aiel "so-called Aiel" and "renegade Aiel") if he was recruited by Demandred, someone who was buried in the Bore until TGH?

 

 

I interpret Taim's reference to 'so called Aiel' more of his disbelief that Aiel would follow Rand or anyone apart from their own Clan chiefs for that matter. Hence in his mind, they can't really be Aiel. Taim often considers Rand with contempt (although he respects his level of power). I can't speak for other possible AoL terminology he might have used as it's been a while since I read those earlier books and my memory is hazy.

 

As for when Taim turned? I think he was a Dark friend pretty much from the beginning. Before he came to meet Rand and was placed as leader of the Black Tower anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if the Black Ajah were involved as has been mentioned by others earlier. He came along to suss out Rand, and when recruited to train men for the Black Tower jumped at the opportunity of recruiting Dreadlords for the Shadow. That works for me.

 

And yes, I think a confrontation with Logain would have been satisfying. What we got worked well though. It's nice to be surprised, although I wish they'd done more with Taim and Logain as well. (That being said I like Androl a lot.)

[NeverTame]

Apologies for the thread necromancy again, but the subject of when exactly Taim joined the Shadow is one I have given a lot of thought to (I'm not even kidding when I say it has kept me up at night, and isn't that all kinds of messed up? Anyway).

 

I think that he wasn't a Darkfriend when he first appeared in LoC. I just don't think his behaviour throughout the book is consistent with him already being a Darkfriend. Granted, we don't see all that much of him, but I think Rand's three on-screen visits to "the farm" and that one time Taim showed up on his balcony in Caemlyn are very telling.

 

Taim came to Rand thinking he'd be part of an inner circle of male channellers that Rand was gathering around himself, like the Companions or something. He did not like being sent to "the farm", not only out of the spotlight but just about as far from the spotlight as you can get (if you'll excuse the slight hyperbole). No, he hated it, and it shows, (I don't think he is a particularly good actor,) but he can't afford to get sent away again so he has no choice but to obey.

 

We see him again in chapter 11, when Rand visits the farm to warn Taim that there are Aes Sedai in Caemlyn. At this point there are a handful of students and a bunch of chickens. Not particularly glamorous. Taim seems resigned to his fate but by no means happy about it. He gains permission to go out recruiting.

 

The next time we see him, the scene with the grey man, he appears much more comfortable with his position – and we can see that the black uniforms have been established, and I wouldn't be surprised if the name Black Tower was, too, even though it's not mentioned in this scene. While he's still away from the spotlight, he feels that he has some measure of control again – Rand barely visits the farm, it's Taim's territory. It's not huge yet, but it has reached a point where it's growing really fast, and he's seeing results.

 

Then, in chapter 42, we have what is in my opinion one of the most important scenes regarding Taim's character since his first appearance; Rand makes the Asha'man speech and names him the second Asha'man. (The whole episode is rather cringeworthy and I feel deep embarrassment on Rand's behalf every time I read it – but enough of that.) We see an unusual scale of emotion from Taim in this chapter. We see him in relatively good spirits when Rand arrives – even though the muppet Torval threatens to embarrass him in front of Rand. He's in charge, he's the highest authority here – he may have even forgotten for a while that Rand can, and in all likelihood will, one day just waltz in and overrule him simply by virtue of being the Dragon Reborn.

 

We see anger, no, fury, when Rand does exactly that – waltzes along and presumes to take charge. In his eyes, Rand sticking those pins on his collar is public humiliation. The students see Taim as their leader, the highest authority, and here Rand is making it very clear that Taim's authority is but secondary to his. Rand doesn't even have the grace to name him the first Asha'man, but second. The humiliation of that is nigh unbearable. Aaand Rand can't even leave it well enough alone. No, he has to go and twist the knife; "What has gotten into you?" And the rest of that lovely monologue, suggesting that the display might have enhanced Taim's authority instead of undermining it. And Taim can't very well tell him just how wrong he is because of course his authority is technically supposed to come from Rand. I think Taim's vision of the Black Tower was an organisation loyal to him, and saw himself leading them into battle "standing at the Lord Dragon's right hand" as he put it himself earlier. Whereas the way Rand treats him he's little more than a... steward of the Black Tower. A substitute for a leader instead of an actual leader.

 

And then we see... something that Rand at least interprets as concern, after Lews Therin tries to take over and kill all the things. Yes, it could perfectly well be concern for himself in case Rand did go mad and start killing all the things, so I'm not putting a huge emphasis on this detail in my argument. But it is there.

 

Then we have Dumai's Wells, in which Taim is in charge again, practically dancing with joy at the chance to show the world what he has created. And if he played straight into the Shadow's hand with his actions during and after the battle (as I've seen people point out, and I don't disagree), I think it's unintentional. I think he's just not looking past his own nose – he is a fairly self-centred, vain man, concerned (now that the Lord Dragon has been recovered) mainly with his own status and that of his Asha'man. After the battle, most of what we see him doing is aimed towards one purpose: to establish himself as the Lord Dragon's BFF in the eyes of the world. “And the histories will say Mazrim Taim stood at your right hand.”

 

Okay, sorry, this is getting really long. I swear I'm a flaming ogier when I get started on the subject... Anyway. So, it's an analysis of Taim's behaviour; so what? Well, the way I see it, is that if he had been a Darkfriend all along, he would have been, first of all, under orders to gain Rand's trust. Now, if I were to attempt to gain someone's trust, I wouldn't start by baiting their existing allies. And secondly, he would have had a purpose, a reason to do exactly as Rand says. I think he would have had more patience with Rand's blundering; he would have, after all, had his eyes on a bigger prize. Think of it as having an especially difficult customer in the last 30 minutes of your shift on a Friday afternoon; you plaster that smile on your face and take a deep breath and draw strength from the knowledge that you'll be out of there soon. If you're already looking at the prospect of eternal life in the new world order under the Dark One's rule, what are a few months of putting up with Rand's treatment? But Taim, I think, isn't yet a Darkfriend and doesn't have that to look forward to; Rand is literally all he has in terms of chances for glory, and then the Black Tower.

 

And – if I may go on for a while longer? Yes? Thank you. This is what I think happened: He may have been broken free from the Aes Sedai by the Black Ajah or other Darkfriends, but I think they just set him loose at that point to potentially sow chaos. When he was put in charge of Rand's male channellers, I think “Dashiva” was sent there with the eventual purpose of bringing him over. It's at least strongly implied that the Old Tongue titles (Gedwyn and Rochaid's ridiculously long titles that I'm not even going to try to spell right now; probably M'Hael itself, too) came from Dashiva – the guy is a self-titled “scholar of the Old Tongue” and why else would he need to show off (and then explain) his knowledge of the Old Tongue? I could see him dropping seemingly casual comments here and there, amidst his mumbling and spaced-out act, giving affirmation to Taim's view that he is and should be the leader of the Black Tower. But Dashiva got plucked out of there before he could bring Taim over, and then some time after Dumai's Wells Demandred came along and probably had a fairly easy job of convincing Taim.

 

I keep having the feeling that I had other points to make but this post is ridiculously long already so I'll just leave it there. Except for one more thing. Whoever dubbed Taim M'Fail a while back in this thread – I hope you won't mind if I adopt it as a user title? It speaks to me on a deeply profound level. x)