Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Suttree]

Logain breaks the seals after hearing Egwenes last words - look for the light (to paraphrase).  Breaking the seals at the wrong time would have been disastrous.

 

Additionally as Sutt says, she healed much of the damage done by balefire and took out most of the Sharan Channelers. 

 

Given that Moiraine was crucial for bringing Rand and Eg together, then Eg was important.

 

Indeed, as I said above she set the WT to studying the situation in the archives and they found:

 

AMoL

Elayne shuffled through the sheets of paper, then stopped on one of them. " 'His blood shall give us the Light . . .' " She rubbed the page with her thumb, as if lost in thought. " 'Wait upon the Light.' Who added this note?"

 

"That is Doniella Alievin's copy of the Termendal translation of The Karaethon Cycle," Egwene said. "Doniella made her own notes, and they have been the subject of nearly as much discussion among scholars as the Prophecies themselves. She was a Dreamer, you know. The only Amyrlin that we know of to have been one. Before me, anyway."

 

"Yes," Elayne said.

 

"The sisters who gathered these for me came to the same conclusion that I have," Egwene said. "There may be a time to break the seals, but that time is not at the start of the Last Battle, whatever Rand thinks. We must wait for the right moment...

She then later passed on the correct time to Logain with her last words.

 

Time for a reread Goat. It's clear our dislike of the character seems to be seriously clouding your judgement. There are plenty of Egwene hate threads around here for you to vent in but they don't realy help advance any serious discussion on the topic.

 

It's not only things like the above either. The WT culture was largely broken and had failed despite all the good it has done over the years. Her reforms and the reunification will go a long way in helping lead it back to it's true purpose.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Suttree

[Richard Hoffman]

 

 

Her character became irrelevant after she was named Amyrlin in Salidar she couldn't speak 2 sentences without proclaiming she was Amyrlin. The whole split of the White Tower lasted much too long and was never a real player in the story after the Battle of Dumai's Wells. Yes certain Aes Sedai still played major roles but they were largely independent of Tar Valon.  I was happy to see her die I was pissed that it happened at the very end of the series all that time wasted on a self centered character which brought so little to the whole in the end.      

She really started grinding my gears when she considered herself Rand's equal, or quite possibly his better and actually had the gall to attempt to unite nations against him!

 

 

ZOMFG! The gall to try and unite the countries against the DR!?!?!

 

 

 

Simply my opinion. Judging from your post count you have several opinions yourself

 

Edited September 4, 2013 by Cotillion

[Yamezt]

Though as Suttree asked above:

 

Curious as to what else you would have her do considering she had been hearing word of Dark Rand's atrocities and at that point his plan was basically break the seals and pray Min came up with the key to sealing the bore(essentially he had no plan). There was no other realistic option for her to take.

 

What did you think her course of action should have been then? I am curious too.

[Suttree]

Though as Suttree asked above:

 

 

Curious as to what else you would have her do considering she had been hearing word of Dark Rand's atrocities and at that point his plan was basically break the seals and pray Min came up with the key to sealing the bore(essentially he had no plan). There was no other realistic option for her to take.

 

What did you think her course of action should have been then? I am curious too.

Indeed. Was hoping to actually hear your opinion Cotillion... Edited September 4, 2013 by Suttree

[Durinax]

what atrocities of rands are you referring too?

[lilltempest]

 

Logain breaks the seals after hearing Egwenes last words - look for the light (to paraphrase).  Breaking the seals at the wrong time would have been disastrous.

 

Additionally as Sutt says, she healed much of the damage done by balefire and took out most of the Sharan Channelers. 

 

Given that Moiraine was crucial for bringing Rand and Eg together, then Eg was important.

 

Indeed, as I said above she set the WT to studying the situation in the archives and they found:

 

AMoL

Elayne shuffled through the sheets of paper, then stopped on one of them. " 'His blood shall give us the Light . . .' " She rubbed the page with her thumb, as if lost in thought. " 'Wait upon the Light.' Who added this note?"

 

"That is Doniella Alievin's copy of the Termendal translation of The Karaethon Cycle," Egwene said. "Doniella made her own notes, and they have been the subject of nearly as much discussion among scholars as the Prophecies themselves. She was a Dreamer, you know. The only Amyrlin that we know of to have been one. Before me, anyway."

 

"Yes," Elayne said.

 

"The sisters who gathered these for me came to the same conclusion that I have," Egwene said. "There may be a time to break the seals, but that time is not at the start of the Last Battle, whatever Rand thinks. We must wait for the right moment...

 

 

Two things about this reference...

 

First, I've seen numerous people blast Rand for not sharing information with Egwene, but I wonder if those people see anything wrong with the fact that she failed to share this bit of info with him. She certainly saw no problem ramming her dream down his throat as evidence that the seals should not be broken, so why not share this, as well as the fact that the sisters who found it came to the conclusion that the seals have to be broken but didn't think they should be broken immediately. 

 

Additionally, since other sisters found the info and read it - and came to the same conclusion - then those sisters could have easily passed that info along to someone like, say, Cadsuane or Nynaeve (someone Rand trusts and would listen to if she presented the info to him), so Egwene wasn't exactly the end-all-be-all of necessity that some people like to pretend. In fact, I think Rand would've entrusted the seals to Nyn without a thought. Egwene would never have agreed, of course, because she thinks Rand is somehow mind-controlling Nyn to keep her from agreeing with every foul thing Egwene utters about him. 

 

As far as the damage done by balefire, Brandon was quoted as saying that damage would've eventually healed once the DO was locked away again, so that wasn't really 'necessary' except as a means to get Egwene out of the picture so the 4th age could begin without a wannabe world dictator (who would never be able to negotiate with the Seanchan due to her hatred of them and had no intention of treating the Asha'man as anything but enemies or Warders-to-be) in charge of the WT. So there goes reason number two that she was so irreplaceable for the Last Battle. 

 

I know I won't change anyone's mind, anymore than the Egwene lovers will change mine, but that's how I see it. It's in the text. How you interpret it is dependent on whether you think Egwene is awesome or you think she's little better than Elaida (and just as much of a despot). 

Edited September 4, 2013 by lilltempest

[MasterAblar]

Egwene in ToM and Egwene in aMoL are rather... different. In ToM she opposed the seals being broken at all. In aMoL, she's still not convinced that the risk should be taken, but if it's necessary there's a right time to do it. Her opposition to breaking the seals is definitely toned down in aMoL. In ToM her opposition to it was rather irrational. Sure it's not a pleasant scenario, and there are probably risks, but it should still be on the table no? According to her in ToM, it really shouldn't. Had that changed over the course of the book, her stance in aMoL would have been more understandable. But seeing as even at the end of the book, she remains adamant that they should not be broken, with nothing to suggest that it's simply their immediate breaking that she opposes, her sudden change of heart in aMoL really comes out of nowhere.

[Suttree]

what atrocities of rands are you referring too?

Leaving a city to starve to death since it could not be used as a tool:

 

ToM

"Rand, you aren't responsible for this," Min said. "You weren't here to . . ."

 

His pain increased, and she realized she'd said the wrong thing. "Yes," he replied softly, "I wasn't here. I abandoned this city when I saw that I could not use it as the tool I wished it to be.

Balefiring Natrins Barrow, klling his own troops in the Damona's, etc.

 

@lill

 

There really is no point in speculating who else could have potentially passed on info to Logain if Egwene was absent, as you said we have to go off what's in the text and she was the one who did it(as an aside do we know Egwene's letter she wrote to Rand with her findings was never sent?). She even brings up the research done at the FoM and he dismisses it as "Aes Sedai speculation".

 

In terms of the balefire your take seems to ignore what would have happened had the cracks continued or gotten worse. The point isn't that the pattern could have healed itself down the line as ages come and go. It is stopping things from reaching a tipping point in the present.

 

@MA

 

You make a valid point and it's part of what makes it so hard to truly discuss the ending. Terez had this to say on the topic at Theoryland the other day:

I can understand why people think there are still many details to be discussed in the last volume, but for me it just all falls apart due to a web of inconsistencies and retcons. Disbelief has been suspended too far.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Suttree

[Richard Hoffman]

Though as Suttree asked above:

 

Curious as to what else you would have her do considering she had been hearing word of Dark Rand's atrocities and at that point his plan was basically break the seals and pray Min came up with the key to sealing the bore(essentially he had no plan). There was no other realistic option for her to take.

 

What did you think her course of action should have been then? I am curious too.

I would have liked to see her approach him as Egwene talking to Rand rather than the AS talking to the DR. I think that is a major reason why Rand put so must trust into Nyn. She also accepted the fact that Rand was the champion of the light and she needed to do what she could to help him rather than oppose him at every turn. I think that is why she ended up as a character favorite and Egwene ended up disliked by the majority. I also felt like bringing nations together against him with full military force was an unnecessary threat and another testament to how delusional she was.  

 

@ Suttree- You are right that essentially he had no plan ( even though the plan to destroy the seals ended up being the correct one ) but can you honestly say that collecting nations of military might is anything short of an attempt to bully Rand into Egwene's choice of actions? The lack of assistance or counsel was what ultimately lead to the failure of Lews Therin and the breaking of the world. ( imo )

 

Egwene did some good things. She did bring the White Tower back together and went out with a bang in the end, however it doesn't change the fact that I viewed her in the end as a Tyrant who considered herself a just a small step under the creator. I know this has no weight as an argument with someone who is Pro Egwene, in fact it would carry about as much weight as any argument brought to me against the Seanchen, who were hands down my favorite    

[Suttree]

 

@ Suttree- You are right that essentially he had no plan ( even though the plan to destroy the seals ended up being the correct one ) but can you honestly say that collecting nations of military might is anything short of an attempt to bully Rand into Egwene's choice of actions?

But Rand left her no choice, he purposely manipulated the situation so he would get that exact reaction.

 

ToM

 

I've poured hot oil into the White Tower, and it will be boiling soon. Time. We don't have time! I will get help to Lan, I vow it to you, but right now I must prepare to face Egwene."

 

Considering that he was insane until shortly before the meeting, she has been hearing about his dark actions(slaughtering his own men in the Damona Campaign, Natrin's Barrow, leaving a city to starve when he couldnt use them as "tools") and how much he has changed from Nyn she really couldn't handle it any other way. You can't think of it from a readers perspective, you need to view it from what she knows. No one can fault her for questioning him at this point. She tried to have an exchange of info and plan:

 

ToM

"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."

 

"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed."

 

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

 

"That is why I cam to you. To let you plan."

 

He seemed amused. Light!

 

Rand refuses and goads her into that course of action. This is an idea  that can threaten the entire world and goes against what every single person in Randland believes to be true except possibly 3 or 4 people who have been told why it needs to happen and are working towards what needs to be done. Again you can't fault her for questioning him at this point. The WT has been the main force for the light for 3,000 years, of course she would question something like this.

 

I said all along that he should have set Cads and Min to working with the WT and use the resources in the library(where the AS ended up finding a crucial piece of info). He could have gathered the armies just as easily without the subterfuge. Her own thoughts in the meeting show she was ready to trust him, contrary to your assertion that she only viewed him as the DR:

 

 

ToM

Light, she thought. I'm wrong. I can't think of him only as the Dragon Reborn. I'm here for a reason. He's here for a reason. To me, he must be Rand. Because Rand can be trusted, while the Dragon Reborn must be feared.

 

"Which are you?" she whispered unconsciously.

 

He heard. "I am both, Egwene. I remember him. Lews Therin. I can see his entire life, every desperate moment. I see it like a dream, but a clear dream. My own dream. It's part of me."

 

The words were those of a madman, but they were spoken evenly. She looked at him, and remembered the youth that he had been. The earnest young man. Not solemn like Perrin, but not wild like Mat. Solid, straightforward. The type of man you could trust with anything.

 

Even the fate of the world.

 

The lack of assistance or counsel was what ultimately lead to the failure of Lews Therin and the breaking of the world. ( imo )

Actually, we know that isn't true. The plan was flawed:

 

Robert Jordan

Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the...and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [it was actually the “Fateful Concord”], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted.

 

Egwene did some good things. She did bring the White Tower back together and went out with a bang in the end, however it doesn't change the fact that I viewed her in the end as a Tyrant who considered herself a just a small step under the creator. I know this has no weight as an argument with someone who is Pro Egwene, in fact it would carry about as much weight as any argument brought to me against the Seanchen, who were hands down my favorite 

Ha. There has been some pretty intense Seanchen debates here over the years. As for Egwene I think you will find most people are pretty open to various interpretations. There are some who took it waaaaaay overboard on each side of the debate(ie. Kael pro-Eggy, lilltempest anti-Eggy)but for the most part people are reasonable.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Suttree

[MasterAblar]

I highly doubt Egwene believed Rand killing his own men during the Damona campaign was anything but an accident, and hardly intentional. She wouldn't know about Natrin's Burrow either. Only Rand, Nyneave, Min, Cadsuane, Merise, and the Wise Ones. None of them were in contact with Egwene at that time, and Egwene doesn't think about his actions either. And only a few days had passed since Rand had left Arad Doman, not enough for Egwene to surmise that Rand is abandoning them to starvation, if she's even heard of him leaving, which is hardly certain.

 

She'd heard that he was arrogant, temperamental, mistrusting, somewhat irrational, possibly verging on insanity. All things to keep in mind and reasons to be skeptical of what he claims, to question his plans. But not reasons to disregard them completely as insanity. Not without further proof. Not considering who and what he is, and what he has already accomplished, particularly the Cleansing, which also sound crazy at first. Had he come forward and said he was going to break the seals with no plan whatsoever and just see what happens without even considering her objections, then her opposition would have been justified. But as it is, that's not what he did, and he sounded perfectly sane troughout the meeting something she thought was peculiar, and something she should have investigated before making any decisions about him and his ideas. She was rash in deciding that breaking the seals was unnecessary, something she had no proof of at that point. That she acted precisely as Rand expected her to is irrelevant. She made an extremely important decision, in spite of the fact that she was in the dark and severely lacking in information, and yet had time to at least attempt to gain greater understanding of the situation. And for a person in her position with all that relies on her, that's a pretty big mistake. There's no doubt that her intentions were good, she just didn't think it through very well.

[Suttree]

. Had he come forward and said he was going to break the seals with no plan whatsoever and just see what happens without even considering her objections, then her opposition would have been justified. But as it is, that's not what he did, and he sounded perfectly sane troughout the meeting something she thought was peculiar, and something she should have investigated before making any decisions about him and his ideas. She was rash in deciding that breaking the seals was unnecessary, something she had no proof of at that point. That she acted precisely as Rand expected her to is irrelevant. She made an extremely important decision, in spite of the fact that she was in the dark and severely lacking in information, and yet had time to at least attempt to gain greater understanding of the situation. And for a person in her position with all that relies on her, that's a pretty big mistake. There's no doubt that her intentions were good, she just didn't think it through very well.

 

But here is the thing MA, she didn't just try to stop him and again there is no other realistic reaction given the circumstances. She raised the forces as a buffer and continued studying the situation to discuss it at the FoM. She then comes around to saying the seals could possibly be broken but it needed to happen at the correct time. As for lacking information I also found it very odd that Rand would just offhandedly dismiss the research as "AS speculation".

 

Look the reality is her multiple personality disorder post-TGS makes it impossible to really gauge the situation. Barid said it well here...

 

Eh, Egwene was a hit and miss through the book.

 

Her death was heroic and truly fitting end to a great woman.

 

However, she was all over the place in the rest of the book, you couldn't determine what she was going to do or say, she was so inconsistent. Her research and words to Elayne about the Seals were totally thrown out the window in the Dragon's Farce.

 

Her and Rand both were so ridiculous in that scene, she changed completely and acted like a total idiot, all her development thrown out the window. First she goes in and intends to have the White Tower in control of the Last Battle (inconsistent in itself) then when Rand says the Amyrlin is no good to lead, she doesn't say a thing. Not to mention that bloody farce of a paragraph when she suggests Rand takes the "safe" option and gets saidin tainted again! Of course, she is not doing what Rand says, but there is no way I am buying Egwene would suggest that, no matter the reasons. Since when has she ever shirked from a difficult task. Rand's reaction to it was similarly ridiculous, but at least understandable in the slightest, it was so out of character that it almost seemed like a reasonable conclusion for Rand.

 

Her meeting with Tuon was good for her, but it made Tuon out to be a total idiot - which she is most definitely not, whatever else you may call her. Egwene was awesome, but unfortunately it required replacing Tuon with Mesaana.

 

I was angry that Gawyn did that too her, she deserved so much more, and while she did hold the world together, dying well, perhaps it was even needed to keep the world alive, it was annoying nonetheless, that Gawyn practically killed her.

 

Then the random flip with the Seals was ridiculous. It reminds me off the cliche of a villain "righting all their wrongs" on their deathbed. It was good that she came to the conclusion, but poorly done. She should have slowly changed her mind, seeing the horrors of the Last Battle, and the balefire, slowly realise that it was necessary.

 

So while I admire her heroic end, and her as a character, the inconsistencies really took away from her death, I SHOULD have felt more sorrow, but it was just so strange that I can only do it in hindsight.

 

The above take about inconsistencies fits just the same with ToM.

 

Edit:

 

Also curious to hear why you think she had zero contact with Nyn or the WO's to hear about Rand's growing darkness? It had been developing for books.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Suttree

[fionwe1987]

@Illtempest:

 

 

 

 

First, I've seen numerous people blast Rand for not sharing information with Egwene, but I wonder if those people see anything wrong with the fact that she failed to share this bit of info with him. She certainly saw no problem ramming her dream down his throat as evidence that the seals should not be broken, so why not share this, as well as the fact that the sisters who found it came to the conclusion that the seals have to be broken but didn't think they should be broken immediately.

But she did ask him for a discussion where they could argue this out and plan things. He flatly refused. It was at that point that she decided to gather opposition against him. 

 

Now, as to why Rand decided to refuse her entirely reasonable request for a meeting... only Brandon can answer. For myself, I think the entire one month ultimatum to Merillor was a result of the book split. Brandon needed a way to end ToM, and a way to keep up suspense for aMoL. This ludicrous one month time gap that was based on no logical motivation was the way to achieve it.

 

 

 

Additionally, since other sisters found the info and read it - and came to the same conclusion - then those sisters could have easily passed that info along to someone like, say, Cadsuane or Nynaeve (someone Rand trusts and would listen to if she presented the info to him), so Egwene wasn't exactly the end-all-be-all of necessity that some people like to pretend.

 

Except he dismissed that as Aes Sedai speculation. He'd certainly have asked Nynaeve and Cads where they got their info from, and once they revealed it was the Tower, he wouldn't have listened. Egwene's role wasn't only to gather the info. It was to be a serious enough hurdle to Rand's plan that even when he refused to heed her knowledge, she could frustrate it. The reverse was also true, of course.

 

 

 

As far as the damage done by balefire, Brandon was quoted as saying that damage would've eventually healed once the DO was locked away again

No, he said the remaining Balefire damage that Egwene didn't heal would eventually be healed as the Pattern carries on. I know of no quote where he says Egwene was flat out wrong in her assessment that the rift in the Pattern in front of her was a new entry point for the DO, and could completely destroy the DO. The way her the effects of her weave are described, in fact, it seems pretty obvious that the "thinness" in the Pattern that will be detected in the next Second Age will be this patch. Which ties into Rand's point that the Dark One was something humans inflicted on themselves.

 

@Master Ablar

Egwene in ToM and Egwene in aMoL are rather... different. In ToM she opposed the seals being broken at all. In aMoL, she's still not convinced that the risk should be taken, but if it's necessary there's a right time to do it. Her opposition to breaking the seals is definitely toned down in aMoL. In ToM her opposition to it was rather irrational. Sure it's not a pleasant scenario, and there are probably risks, but it should still be on the table no? According to her in ToM, it really shouldn't. Had that changed over the course of the book, her stance in aMoL would have been more understandable. But seeing as even at the end of the book, she remains adamant that they should not be broken, with nothing to suggest that it's simply their immediate breaking that she opposes, her sudden change of heart in aMoL really comes out of nowhere. 

Agree that it was inconsistent as hell. But we can figure out why it was that way. Had Brandon revealed that Egwene had been researching in the Tower library, and that her position had evolved, and she had begun to better understand her Dream, there would have been less suspense about what would happen in aMoL. 

 

I remember multiple threads where people complained that Egwene wasn't using the Tower library. I remember pointing out that her suddenly quoting obscure Brown scholars to Saerin was a hint of her actually doing research. But that's about all we got. Brandon simply hid everything else, giving the impression that Egwene spent the month before Merrilor writing a few letters and stopping one attempted coup by the Hall. Which is so massively inconsistent with her character that I just refused to believe it.

 

I also find it baffling that she didn't discuss her Dream with Rand, or bring it up at Merillor at all. After the Seanchan actually attacked as her Dream suggested, her oracular powers certainly must have gotten greater respect from the AS. Its confusing that what pretty much amounted to the central reson she opposed Rand's plan was completely forgotten in aMoL.

 

 

[MasterAblar]

 

But here is the thing MA, she didn't just try to stop him and again there is no other realistic reaction given the circumstances. She raised the forces as a buffer and continued studying the situation to discuss it at the FoM. She then comes around to saying the seals could possibly be broken but it needed to happen at the correct time. As for lacking information I also found it very odd that Rand would just offhandedly dismiss the research as "AS speculation".

 

 

The very ending of the chapter in which Rand and Egwene meet shows Egwene thinking that he must be stopped, not that he might need to be stopped. Over and over in ToM and in aMoL, it's portrayed as a confrontation between them, not a discussion.

 

Her immediate reaction is understandable. Anyone would be shocked by that. But for it to last until the end of the book is the problem. Not once does she consider that he may be right and that the seals need to be broken. She's far to self assured. Just because Rand did not bother giving her an explanation then and there, does not mean he doesn't have one.

 

If we account for her sudden change of heart in aMoL regarding whether or not the seals need to be broken, then the question has to be asked of why she's trying to make this meeting look like a confrontation, because that is definitely her doing. Why not account for the possibility that they can all come to an agreement, that they both have a portion of the truth? She never seems to consider that.

 

As for Rand dismissing the research I can think of two reasons: Rand is LTT, and LTT may not have a very high opinion of the Aes Sedai of this age. He may doubt the worth of Aes Sedai theories that have nothing to really back them up. And secondly it may seem very convenient from his pov that there happens to be obscure research done by some Aes Sedai that goes against precisely what he wishes to do. He's still shortsighted to dismiss it so easily though.

 

 

Look the reality is her multiple personality disorder post-TGS makes it impossible to really gauge the situation. Barid said it well here...

 

 

Also curious to hear why you think she had zero contact with Nyn or the WO's to hear about Rand's growing darkness? It had been developing for books.

 

 

It makes it harder, but not impossible. She still made the mistake of turning the meeting into a confrontation. Her opinion on the breaking of the seals however is indeed impossible to judge, because it's no longer possible just what her opinion is.

 

She was in contact with them earlier in the books. But at the very least she didn't contact them at any point after the Semirhage incident, and that's when Rand really went dark. The last time she talked to them was significantly prior to it as far as I can recall. She hadn't talked to Nyneave in forever considering their discussion in ToM. I believe she talked to Aviendha in CoT, but I don't remember her talking to the Wise Ones. She probably believes Rand is similar to how she left him in LoC. Worse actually considering his imprisonement, but still no reason to believe he was anything like he was post-Semirhage.

[MasterAblar]

 

But she did ask him for a discussion where they could argue this out and plan things. He flatly refused. It was at that point that she decided to gather opposition against him. 

 

Now, as to why Rand decided to refuse her entirely reasonable request for a meeting... only Brandon can answer. For myself, I think the entire one month ultimatum to Merillor was a result of the book split. Brandon needed a way to end ToM, and a way to keep up suspense for aMoL. This ludicrous one month time gap that was based on no logical motivation was the way to achieve it.

 

And that's where she was too hasty. She had a month worth of time to figure out if there was any truth to what he was saying about the seals (her conclusion about this is what varies between the two books), and she had the meeting at Merrilor, to attempt to resolve the situation without resorting to pressuring him by forming sides. As it is forming sides only added to the tension and created cracks in the forces of the Light. It's an understandable mistake, particularly when confronted with such a volatile situation, but i still think she was too quick to resort to these kinds of methods.

 

It seems to me that Rand refused her offer, precisely because he knew she would react as she did, allowing him to only need to convince her of his plan so that the rest would follow suit. Or basically what Faile said to Perrin.

 

 

Agree that it was inconsistent as hell. But we can figure out why it was that way. Had Brandon revealed that Egwene had been researching in the Tower library, and that her position had evolved, and she had begun to better understand her Dream, there would have been less suspense about what would happen in aMoL. 

 

I remember multiple threads where people complained that Egwene wasn't using the Tower library. I remember pointing out that her suddenly quoting obscure Brown scholars to Saerin was a hint of her actually doing research. But that's about all we got. Brandon simply hid everything else, giving the impression that Egwene spent the month before Merrilor writing a few letters and stopping one attempted coup by the Hall. Which is so massively inconsistent with her character that I just refused to believe it.

 

Right, but he still could have given hints of some kind. As it is you have Egwene in ToM showing complete opposition to the idea that breaking the seals might be necessary, for seemingly no good reason. And then you have Egwene in aMoL, who's not against it at all, although hardly convinced, yet, that it is necessary. He had the opportunity in Egwene's last scene at the Fields of Merrilor, at the end of ToM, to suggest that at some point in the book Egwene had discovered something. As it is it just seems like Egwene is trying to fool the readers or something.

 

 

 

I also find it baffling that she didn't discuss her Dream with Rand, or bring it up at Merillor at all. After the Seanchan actually attacked as her Dream suggested, her oracular powers certainly must have gotten greater respect from the AS. Its confusing that what pretty much amounted to the central reason she opposed Rand's plan was completely forgotten in aMoL.

 

Yeah it would have been nice to actually learn what the dream meant, to know if she misinterpreted it or something. It was just kind of left by the wayside.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

But here is the thing MA, she didn't just try to stop him and again there is no other realistic reaction given the circumstances. She raised the forces as a buffer and continued studying the situation to discuss it at the FoM. She then comes around to saying the seals could possibly be broken but it needed to happen at the correct time. As for lacking information I also found it very odd that Rand would just offhandedly dismiss the research as "AS speculation".

 

 

The very ending of the chapter in which Rand and Egwene meet shows Egwene thinking that he must be stopped, not that he might need to be stopped. Over and over in ToM and in aMoL, it's portrayed as a confrontation between them, not a discussion.

 

Her immediate reaction is understandable. Anyone would be shocked by that. But for it to last until the end of the book is the problem. Not once does she consider that he may be right and that the seals need to be broken. She's far to self assured. Just because Rand did not bother giving her an explanation then and there, does not mean he doesn't have one.

Yes, but she can hardly wait for a month on the off chance that there may be an explanation before she collects opposition in case there isn't one. She did the only thing she could: collect those likely to oppose Rand, then give him a chance to explain himself. If what he said was satisfactory, no harm done, since those gathered would all get the reason from the horse's mouth. If he had no explanation, she had her supporters ready at hand to do whatever was needed. It would have been remarkably remiss of her not to account for both those eventualities.

 

Now, as to her inner thoughts, I agree that it is absurd that she doesn't consider that he may have a point till aMoL begins. That was written in too abruptly, and precisely because Brandon didn't want that avenue left open in the readers minds going into aMoL. He failed, as far as anyone who read the series closely enough was concerned.

 

 

If we account for her sudden change of heart in aMoL regarding whether or not the seals need to be broken, then the question has to be asked of why she's trying to make this meeting look like a confrontation, because that is definitely her doing. Why not account for the possibility that they can all come to an agreement, that they both have a portion of the truth? She never seems to consider that.

 

She may not have considered that, but none of her actions made a confrontation inevitable. She gathered opposition, including men like Darlin who were openly loyal to Rand. To the very end, she states she doesn't want it to devolve into conflict, but she's ready for it if it comes to that. That's hardly an unreasonable course of action, though her thoughts should have been written to match them, not be presented in a schizophrenic manner.

 

 

As for Rand dismissing the research I can think of two reasons: Rand is LTT, and LTT may not have a very high opinion of the Aes Sedai of this age. He may doubt the worth of Aes Sedai theories that have nothing to really back them up. And secondly it may seem very convenient from his pov that there happens to be obscure research done by some Aes Sedai that goes against precisely what he wishes to do. He's still shortsighted to dismiss it so easily though.

Neither of those reasons compute. If Rand was simply dismissing Third Age Aes Sedai for the sake of being Third Age AS, he's no better than the Foresaken who got their asses handed to them. And Aes Sedai cannot lie, so however "convenient" it looks, they can't fake the research.

 

 

And that's where she was too hasty. She had a month worth of time to figure out if there was any truth to what he was saying about the seals (her conclusion about this is what varies between the two books), and she had the meeting at Merrilor, to attempt to resolve the situation without resorting to pressuring him by forming sides. As it is forming sides only added to the tension and created cracks in the forces of the Light. It's an understandable mistake, particularly when confronted with such a volatile situation, but i still think she was too quick to resort to these kinds of methods.

 

 

Not quick at all, since Rand said he was going to break the Seals the day after their meeting in a month. She could hardly have marshaled her opposition in a day's time!

 

 

 

It seems to me that Rand refused her offer, precisely because he knew she would react as she did, allowing him to only need to convince her of his plan so that the rest would follow suit. Or basically what Faile said to Perrin.

Then why not convince her right then, and then ask her to bring the other's together and convince them? That way, there's no "cracks in the forces of the Light". You can't deny that Rand's plan was pretty absurd. If he needed a month to come up with an argument that would convince Egwene, he should simply have gone to her then, instead of issuing ultimatums and designing a situation that looked like inevitable conflict.

 

Right, but he still could have given hints of some kind. As it is you have Egwene in ToM showing complete opposition to the idea that breaking the seals might be necessary, for seemingly no good reason. And then you have Egwene in aMoL, who's not against it at all, although hardly convinced, yet, that it is necessary. He had the opportunity in Egwene's last scene at the Fields of Merrilor, at the end of ToM, to suggest that at some point in the book Egwene had discovered something. As it is it just seems like Egwene is trying to fool the readers or something.

 

Yup. She was just badly written, here.

 

 

Yeah it would have been nice to actually learn what the dream meant, to know if she misinterpreted it or something. It was just kind of left by the wayside.

 

I don't think she misinterpreted it completely. The warning was about timing, not whether it had to be done at all, I think. I'm pretty sure that's how it would have played without the book split. Rand would come to Tar Valon, Egwene would have a Dream, they'd disagree on timing, they would quickly collect their allies and meet, things would be at an impasse, then Moiraine would broker a deal. 

 

[MasterAblar]

Yes, but she can hardly wait for a month on the off chance that there may be an explanation before she collects opposition in case there isn't one. She did the only thing she could: collect those likely to oppose Rand, then give him a chance to explain himself. If what he said was satisfactory, no harm done, since those gathered would all get the reason from the horse's mouth. If he had no explanation, she had her supporters ready at hand to do whatever was needed. It would have been remarkably remiss of her not to account for both those eventualities.

 

 

 

Not quick at all, since Rand said he was going to break the Seals the day after their meeting in a month. She could hardly have marshaled her opposition in a day's time!

 

 

 

She may not have considered that, but none of her actions made a confrontation inevitable. She gathered opposition, including men like Darlin who were openly loyal to Rand. To the very end, she states she doesn't want it to devolve into conflict, but she's ready for it if it comes to that. That's hardly an unreasonable course of action, though her thoughts should have been written to match them, not be presented in a schizophrenic manner.

 

Oh, she should definitely collect everyone in case he needs to be opposed, but what she should not have done is announce to them that she is opposing him, and that they must do so as well, before the meeting. If at the meeting things didn't go well, and it was clear that he needed to be stopped, then that is when she should have formed the opposition. What she did is choose a side, and make others choose a side, before being certain whether or not there were even sides to choose in the first place. She'd already decided that he was wrong before the meeting. The conflict may not have been a violent, physical one, but they were clearly of diverging opinions, in spite of the fact that they didn't even know the reasons for the other's opinion in the first place. Basically she should have made absolutely 100% certain that Rand had to be stopped before announcing it the various rulers, who she would have of course gathered beforehand. It was a communication mistake more than anything.

 

 

 

Neither of those reasons compute. If Rand was simply dismissing Third Age Aes Sedai for the sake of being Third Age AS, he's no better than the Foresaken who got their asses handed to them. And Aes Sedai cannot lie, so however "convenient" it looks, they can't fake the research.

 

I guess he just didn't believe there was anyway they could possibly know anything about the nature of the bore, or at least more than those in the Age of Legends who should of had a much greater understanding of it. So, I suppose if there's any explanation it's arrogance to me, although frankly both Rand and Egwene came across as amazingly dense during the meeting anyway.

 

 

 

Then why not convince her right then, and then ask her to bring the other's together and convince them? That way, there's no "cracks in the forces of the Light". You can't deny that Rand's plan was pretty absurd. If he needed a month to come up with an argument that would convince Egwene, he should simply have gone to her then, instead of issuing ultimatums and designing a situation that looked like inevitable conflict.

 

Had he gone to her in a month's time, the forces of the Light would not have been gathered and ready to move. I think he probably thought it was necessary for all of them to witness the Amyrlin being convinced before their very eyes. They were always going to be two most important people at any meeting, and the Amyrlin has a huge amount of institutional influence over the rulers. If she is convinced then sure they must follow. Perhaps he believed the rulers would feel bullied if both he and Egwene were trying to convince them.

 

Also I think he didn't try to convince simply because, well, he couldn't. Ultimately he tried to coerce everyone into signing the treaty. Egwene still ended up calling his bluff, even in such a volatile situation as the meeting of Merrilor. Surely she would have done so as well, in the WT, surrounded by Aes Sedai, against Rand who stood alone.

 

And there's the treaty itself to be considered. Egwene only cared about the seals, the peace she was fine with, and Rand being commander in chief wasn't as big a deal even if she disagreed with it. But Rand needed to convince everyone of all three, particularly the peace part, and he might have had difficulty doing that if the rulers didn't see Egwene being convinced and signing.

 

What didn't make sense to me is that Rand wanted to be both commander in chief.... but also break the seals right away and go fight the DO. I mean it's pretty clear he can't do both at once. It's understandable that he wouldn't know that there was a precise moment at which the seals had to be broken according to prophecy, but how he could believe that he could both fight the DO and lead the armies at the same time, I have no idea. Thankfully Moiraine reasoned with him quickly on that point.

 

Egwene actually mentions her dream from ToM at the meeting with Moiraine, when Moiraine convinces her that the seals need to be broken. But she basically just says that it showed Rand destroying the seals.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Master Ablar

[BFG]

 

 

What didn't make sense to me is that Rand wanted to be both commander in chief.... but also break the seals right away and go fight the DO. I mean it's pretty clear he can't do both at once. It's understandable that he wouldn't know that there was a precise moment at which the seals had to be broken according to prophecy, but how he could believe that he could both fight the DO and lead the armies at the same time, I have no idea. Thankfully Moiraine reasoned with him quickly on that point.

 

 

 

This bugs me in the books, it's almost as schizo as Eg.  In Towers he's very clear when he says that he won't be fighting the Last Battle alongside the rest as he'll be at the bore fighting the DO directly.  Then at the meeting he's demanding the right to be commander.

 

The only explanation I can come up with is that he asked for it knowing he wouldn't get it, but that he could back away and use that to make Eg back away from the position as well.  As it's Perrins pov, we only hear his actions and not his thoughts.

[fionwe1987]

 

Oh, she should definitely collect everyone in case he needs to be opposed, but what she should not have done is announce to them that she is opposing him, and that they must do so as well, before the meeting. If at the meeting things didn't go well, and it was clear that he needed to be stopped, then that is when she should have formed the opposition. What she did is choose a side, and make others choose a side, before being certain whether or not there were even sides to choose in the first place. She'd already decided that he was wrong before the meeting. The conflict may not have been a violent, physical one, but they were clearly of diverging opinions, in spite of the fact that they didn't even know the reasons for the other's opinion in the first place. Basically she should have made absolutely 100% certain that Rand had to be stopped before announcing it the various rulers, who she would have of course gathered beforehand. It was a communication mistake more than anything.

 

 

 

 

 

That wouldn't work either. She can't afford to let them all come there with no clue what was to happen, then have Rand shutter their opposition with his ta'veren nature, as he did in the Hall. Not on the off chance that Rand had an explanation that he simply refused to give her for unexplained reasons. 

 

Think for a moment what you're asking her to do. She's supposed to divine that there's some secret explanation that Rand refused to give her. Why? She has no logical reason for something like that. And based on this logic-less speculation, she should collect multiple armies that may suddenly have to go to war against each other?

 

I'm not saying she shouldn't have sounded reasonable about it. Though truth be told, we don't know how she sounded. Sure, in her letter to Darlin she said she wants to oppose Rand. But she also clearly says that his loyalty to Rand is "well measured". She can't lie, and Darlin knows that, so she made it pretty damn clear that she wasn't interested in a power struggle with Rand with the nations in the middle. 

 

I guess he just didn't believe there was anyway they could possibly know anything about the nature of the bore, or at least more than those in the Age of Legends who should of had a much greater understanding of it. So, I suppose if there's any explanation it's arrogance to me, although frankly both Rand and Egwene came across as amazingly dense during the meeting anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree. And its a damned shame. They did have a genuine point of disagreement. Unfortunately, it wasn't close to big enough to work for the book split, so Brandon had to amp it up. He did so by making both look like idiots.

 

 

Had he gone to her in a month's time, the forces of the Light would not have been gathered and ready to move.

Why ever not? They were all loyal to him. All he had to do was send emissaries to call them to Merrilor, and send one to the Tower as well, requesting their presence. He directly ruled, or had strong alliances with, every person Egwene called to Merillor save Roderan. And if the idea of the entire ruse was to bring Demandred out, there's certainly nothing in his thoughts to indicate this. 

 

 

I think he probably thought it was necessary for all of them to witness the Amyrlin being convinced before their very eyes. They were always going to be two most important people at any meeting, and the Amyrlin has a huge amount of institutional influence over the rulers. If she is convinced then sure they must follow. Perhaps he believed the rulers would feel bullied if both he and Egwene were trying to convince them.

Then he still could have called a meeting of everyone, and announced his plans then. Why give Egwene time to rally opposition? It makes zero sense.

 

 

Also I think he didn't try to convince simply because, well, he couldn't. Ultimately he tried to coerce everyone into signing the treaty. Egwene still ended up calling his bluff, even in such a volatile situation as the meeting of Merrilor. Surely she would have done so as well, in the WT, surrounded by Aes Sedai, against Rand who stood alone.

Exactly. So wouldn't it have been better to meet her for the first time in Merillor, and give her no time to form any sort of alliance against him?

 

 

And there's the treaty itself to be considered. Egwene only cared about the seals, the peace she was fine with, and Rand being commander in chief wasn't as big a deal even if she disagreed with it. But Rand needed to convince everyone of all three, particularly the peace part, and he might have had difficulty doing that if the rulers didn't see Egwene being convinced and signing.

Except the Aes Sedai would have jumped with joy at being asked to help with such a treaty. He knows for a fact that they have wanted something like this for a long time. If he had doubts, there are tons of sisters in his retinue who'd have told him that the Tower has no issues at all with the Westlands being unified. Again, if he'd just met them all at Merillor and announced his plan, the Tower would have had no issues with his peace treaty. As ended up happening anyway.

 

 

What didn't make sense to me is that Rand wanted to be both commander in chief.... but also break the seals right away and go fight the DO. I mean it's pretty clear he can't do both at once. It's understandable that he wouldn't know that there was a precise moment at which the seals had to be broken according to prophecy, but how he could believe that he could both fight the DO and lead the armies at the same time, I have no idea. Thankfully Moiraine reasoned with him quickly on that point.

Yeah, this was simply absurd. Till aMoL came out, I had assumed, in a desperate hope that Rand's plans were actually logical, that he'd riled Egwene up into gathering all the rulers because he wanted her to take over, because he would have no time. Instead, he flipped on his entirely reasonable statement that he can't lead the battles. 

 

 

Egwene actually mentions her dream from ToM at the meeting with Moiraine, when Moiraine convinces her that the seals need to be broken. But she basically just says that it showed Rand destroying the seals.

Yes, but that was after Moiraine asked her about it. I'd have thought she'd have revealed it to Rand right away.

[Rhienne]

I think another reason why Rand didn't want to have a proper discussion with Egwene when he went to her at the White Tower was because he would have been extremely uncomfortable in that situation.  He is shielded, brought before the Hall of the Tower, in Egwene's seat of power, and Egwene wants to send him to Yellow Sisters to be checked over.  I think Egwene at some point thinks about if they can keep him there are guide him.  Rand seems very zen in this scene, but in AMoL we see that a lot of the Zen!Rand behaviour is actually a front.  He still has many of the same insecurities and fears that he always did, they are just better under control.  He is not completely trusting of the Aes Sedai (unsurprisingly given that the majority of his experiences with them have been unpleasant - kidnap, manipulation, lack of respect, a desire to guide him, etc.), and within the White Tower I get the impression that he would be expected to defer to Egwene (e.g. he bows to her while she does not show him any similar sign of respect).  I don't think the White Tower presents particularly favourable conditions for a meeting.

[Rhienne]

I think another reason why Rand didn't want to have a proper discussion with Egwene when he went to her at the White Tower was because he would have been extremely uncomfortable in that situation.  He is shielded, brought before the Hall of the Tower, in Egwene's seat of power, and Egwene wants to send him to Yellow Sisters to be checked over.  I think Egwene at some point thinks about if they can keep him there are guide him.  Rand seems very zen in this scene, but in AMoL we see that a lot of the Zen!Rand behaviour is actually a front.  He still has many of the same insecurities and fears that he always did, they are just better under control.  He is not completely trusting of the Aes Sedai (unsurprisingly given that the majority of his experiences with them have been unpleasant - kidnap, manipulation, lack of respect, a desire to guide him, etc.), and within the White Tower I get the impression that he would be expected to defer to Egwene (e.g. he bows to her while she does not show him any similar sign of respect).  I don't think the White Tower presents particularly favourable conditions for a meeting.

[fionwe1987]

I think another reason why Rand didn't want to have a proper discussion with Egwene when he went to her at the White Tower was because he would have been extremely uncomfortable in that situation.  He is shielded, brought before the Hall of the Tower, in Egwene's seat of power, and Egwene wants to send him to Yellow Sisters to be checked over.  I think Egwene at some point thinks about if they can keep him there are guide him.  Rand seems very zen in this scene, but in AMoL we see that a lot of the Zen!Rand behaviour is actually a front.  He still has many of the same insecurities and fears that he always did, they are just better under control.  He is not completely trusting of the Aes Sedai (unsurprisingly given that the majority of his experiences with them have been unpleasant - kidnap, manipulation, lack of respect, a desire to guide him, etc.), and within the White Tower I get the impression that he would be expected to defer to Egwene (e.g. he bows to her while she does not show him any similar sign of respect).  I don't think the White Tower presents particularly favourable conditions for a meeting.

Then why go at all? This has to be the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard. He was so insecure about the White Tower that instead of having a polite conversation, he went into their stronghold and riled them up? 

[Rhienne]

 

I think another reason why Rand didn't want to have a proper discussion with Egwene when he went to her at the White Tower was because he would have been extremely uncomfortable in that situation.  He is shielded, brought before the Hall of the Tower, in Egwene's seat of power, and Egwene wants to send him to Yellow Sisters to be checked over.  I think Egwene at some point thinks about if they can keep him there are guide him.  Rand seems very zen in this scene, but in AMoL we see that a lot of the Zen!Rand behaviour is actually a front.  He still has many of the same insecurities and fears that he always did, they are just better under control.  He is not completely trusting of the Aes Sedai (unsurprisingly given that the majority of his experiences with them have been unpleasant - kidnap, manipulation, lack of respect, a desire to guide him, etc.), and within the White Tower I get the impression that he would be expected to defer to Egwene (e.g. he bows to her while she does not show him any similar sign of respect).  I don't think the White Tower presents particularly favourable conditions for a meeting.

Then why go at all? This has to be the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard. He was so insecure about the White Tower that instead of having a polite conversation, he went into their stronghold and riled them up? 

 

That's a bit rude.  

 

I think Rand went there to get Egwene to gather the armies for him, and to get her to come to Merrilor where they could then decide/debate/fight about how to proceed.  I merely pointed out that I didn't think Rand would have felt comfortable staying there any longer than absolutely necessary.  Perhaps he didn't think his childhood friend would have had him shielded.  I don't think Egwene would have felt comfortable if she had gone to Rand and been shielded.

[MasterAblar]

That wouldn't work either. She can't afford to let them all come there with no clue what was to happen, then have Rand shutter their opposition with his ta'veren nature, as he did in the Hall. Not on the off chance that Rand had an explanation that he simply refused to give her for unexplained reasons. 

 

No, she can tell them about them bout the seals, she just shouldn't be trying to convince them that it is not the way to go, because she herself has no proof that it isn't. Until she can determine the validity of Rand's plan with the seals, she shouldn't be telling anyone what is the right or wrong thing to do. The truth would come out at the meeting anyway.

 

 

 

Exactly. So wouldn't it have been better to meet her for the first time in Merillor, and give her no time to form any sort of alliance against him?

 

 

 

Then he still could have called a meeting of everyone, and announced his plans then. Why give Egwene time to rally opposition? It makes zero sense.

 

You really think that's a good idea? On the eve of the Last Battle, possibly just hours before he goes to face the DO, he announces to everyone that he's going to break the seals, the one thing that holds the Dark One at bay. The risk that the meeting got out of hand was already pretty bad in the books, but dropping that kind of sudden information on them would be extremely dangerous. At least by informing everyone of what he plans to do a month beforehand, he gives them time to process that information, calm down, and it gives them an opportunity to come up with a way to convince them that he's wrong about the seals. This is why I don't hold Egwene's immediate reaction, when Rand first announced his intentions to her in the WT, against her. It would be anyone's instinctive reaction to oppose that, except perhaps a few to whom it is intuitively obvious, like Perrin.

 

 

 

Think for a moment what you're asking her to do. She's supposed to divine that there's some secret explanation that Rand refused to give her. Why? She has no logical reason for something like that. And based on this logic-less speculation, she should collect multiple armies that may suddenly have to go to war against each other?

 

Why would it be so hard for her to admit the possibility that he may not have told her everything? Egwene herself complains in aMoL that Rand essentially left her completely in the dark, that he revealed nothing to her. The idea that the seals might need to be broken is hardly insane. And with all the strangeness surrounding Rand in ToM, something she heard about from various people, and witnessed herself, she should be all the more cautious. The armies need to be collected one way or another. There being tension between them is unfortunately the reality. They're going to have to fight together at the Last Battle anyway, so if they can't even stand to be in the same place without fighting each other, the Light is screwed anyway.

 

 

 

Why ever not? They were all loyal to him. All he had to do was send emissaries to call them to Merrilor, and send one to the Tower as well, requesting their presence. He directly ruled, or had strong alliances with, every person Egwene called to Merillor save Roderan. And if the idea of the entire ruse was to bring Demandred out, there's certainly nothing in his thoughts to indicate this. 

 

I'm no expert on military matters, but I'm guessing the logistics of having a nation's entire army ready to move out is rather... complicated. Probably not something that can be done at moment's notice. So if he tells them at the last second they won't have the time, but if he tells them several weeks in advance, he'll need to give them a damn good reason to be doing this considering the threat of the Seanchan. Remember how reluctant Darlin was to bring even a small amount of his army? And the reason he, or rather Egwene, gives them, is the seals. 

 

 

 

Except the Aes Sedai would have jumped with joy at being asked to help with such a treaty. He knows for a fact that they have wanted something like this for a long time. If he had doubts, there are tons of sisters in his retinue who'd have told him that the Tower has no issues at all with the Westlands being unified. Again, if he'd just met them all at Merillor and announced his plan, the Tower would have had no issues with his peace treaty. As ended up happening anyway.

 

Rand still doesn't trust the Aes Sedai and the WT, considering how things went at Merrilor. I don't think he would want them involved in his treaty. That said I've no doubt that the WT would have agreed to the peace part of the treaty, it's the rest of the nations that wouldn't. Psychologically, the WT accepting to sign a treaty that included the peace, was a massive win for Rand. The Amyrlin being convinced before their very eyes, even if it was really Moiraine who did the convincing, is what pressured the various rulers into to signing the treaty.

 

 

 

That said, I see where you're coming from. When I look at Rand's plan I can't help but think that surely there must have been a way to do it better, that he didn't need carry out such convoluted manipulation, and step on so many toes. But every alternative I think, has some flaw that would make it harder, or more dangerous, or something. I think Rand ultimately went with what was, if not the nicest, most diplomatic, or most straightforward of plans, the one that was most likely to succeed, keeping in mind that it was through coercion that he tried to get everyone to sign, and that even that would have failed had Moiraine not returned to knock some sense into everyone's skulls, including his.

 

 

 

I think another reason why Rand didn't want to have a proper discussion with Egwene when he went to her at the White Tower was because he would have been extremely uncomfortable in that situation.  He is shielded, brought before the Hall of the Tower, in Egwene's seat of power, and Egwene wants to send him to Yellow Sisters to be checked over.  I think Egwene at some point thinks about if they can keep him there are guide him.  Rand seems very zen in this scene, but in AMoL we see that a lot of the Zen!Rand behaviour is actually a front.  He still has many of the same insecurities and fears that he always did, they are just better under control.  He is not completely trusting of the Aes Sedai (unsurprisingly given that the majority of his experiences with them have been unpleasant - kidnap, manipulation, lack of respect, a desire to guide him, etc.), and within the White Tower I get the impression that he would be expected to defer to Egwene (e.g. he bows to her while she does not show him any similar sign of respect).  I don't think the White Tower presents particularly favourable conditions for a meeting.

Then why go at all? This has to be the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard. He was so insecure about the White Tower that instead of having a polite conversation, he went into their stronghold and riled them up?  

 

 

It's true he riled them up, but he was quite polite about it actually. Then again I think that just annoyed Egwene even more, or at least it seemed to at Merrilor.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Master Ablar

[Emily Jarrold]

 

Eh, Egwene was a hit and miss through the book.

 

Her death was heroic and truly fitting end to a great woman.

 

However, she was all over the place in the rest of the book, you couldn't determine what she was going to do or say, she was so inconsistent. Her research and words to Elayne about the Seals were totally thrown out the window in the Dragon's Farce.

 

Her and Rand both were so ridiculous in that scene, she changed completely and acted like a total idiot, all her development thrown out the window. First she goes in and intends to have the White Tower in control of the Last Battle (inconsistent in itself) then when Rand says the Amyrlin is no good to lead, she doesn't say a thing. Not to mention that bloody farce of a paragraph when she suggests Rand takes the "safe" option and gets saidin tainted again! Of course, she is not doing what Rand says, but there is no way I am buying Egwene would suggest that, no matter the reasons. Since when has she ever shirked from a difficult task. Rand's reaction to it was similarly ridiculous, but at least understandable in the slightest, it was so out of character that it almost seemed like a reasonable conclusion for Rand.

 

Her meeting with Tuon was good for her, but it made Tuon out to be a total idiot - which she is most definitely not, whatever else you may call her. Egwene was awesome, but unfortunately it required replacing Tuon with Mesaana.

 

I was angry that Gawyn did that too her, she deserved so much more, and while she did hold the world together, dying well, perhaps it was even needed to keep the world alive, it was annoying nonetheless, that Gawyn practically killed her.

 

Then the random flip with the Seals was ridiculous. It reminds me off the cliche of a villain "righting all their wrongs" on their deathbed. It was good that she came to the conclusion, but poorly done. She should have slowly changed her mind, seeing the horrors of the Last Battle, and the balefire, slowly realise that it was necessary.

 

So while I admire her heroic end, and her as a character, the inconsistencies really took away from her death, I SHOULD have felt more sorrow, but it was just so strange that I can only do it in hindsight.

Solid Barid. I should mention she has been veering wildly in ever since the meeting in the WT with Rand when it seemed as if she had split personalities with the constant contradictions however. The FoM seen was poorly done but unfortunately that doesn't stand out in the slightest at this point.

 

I thought she only got erratic after Gawyn first put on a Seanchan ring, so I thought she was being affected through the bond?