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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Emily Jarrold

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  1. Thank you! In point 3 of your dislikes you have summed up my feelings about how it all ended better than I have even in my own head. We need an epilogue booklet to fluff it out more, I would love it if they brought out an extra few chapters or a novella to explain the characters thoughts, feelings and next few moves, my imagination is great but I keep thinking how it may go next but not quite believing my own version as I made it up and it isn't certain x
  2. It seems to me that the powers she displays in ToM were akin to what Rand did in the end with his pipe, as well as how he made food taste good again. She seemed to have managed to add more coals to the fire, and make delicious food. Plus, the inspiration for her comes from deep in RJ's notes on Rand. All this suggests there is a connection to Rand. Another thing to note is that Nakomi's name is an obvious derivative of Nokomis, an Iroquois name meaning "Daughter of the Moon" as well as "Grandmother". These names can fit Lanfear very well, but even though I can imagine a situation where she wants the Aiel to survive, I can't see her helping Aviendha of all people, nor can she possibly have said anything to Rand when he came out of SG (she was dead by then). The only other character that can be called Daughter of the Moon, and Grand Mother, is Egwene. I really resist this idea, because for Nakomi to be Egwene, we'd need to have time travel involved. But consider these quotes: Its been constantly remarked that Egwene could easily be Aiel. She even considers that she has an Aiel heart... could she just be Aiel at heart? And then there's the manner of her death. One way or another, her weave plays with time. Its supposed to freeze someone in time, but what if it does more? After all, there are ripple effects to balefire's burning of threads back in time. What if there are ripple effects to the Flame too? What if, instead of unspooling the Pattern, using the Flame does the opposite, and creates events in the past that allow the Pattern to be stabilized in the future? This is admittedly so far out as to be ridiculous. But perhaps by this or some other mechanism, Egwene was actually there for Aviendha and the Aiel, and is responsible for the remnant of the remnant (the heart of the Aiel?) surviving? And her role with Rand in the end also would make sense. We had a lot of foreshadowing of Egwene "killing" Rand. Instead, she nudges him along the path that will "help him die" but not kill him. So, my theory is this: Nakomi is an ancient name, referring to a soul that's a counterpart to the Dragon's. She complements his purpose (as did Egwene), and also has strong ties to the Aiel. Perhaps her last birth was as an Aiel Wise One, and this is the form she choses to take even after her death in this life. After the death of Egwene's body, perhaps because of the manner of her death, Nakomi was able to do several things. Firstly, as Egwene, she conversed with Rand about death. Then she saw to the Aiel. Then she returned one last time to nudge Rand towards his "death". And a little bit more to hint at a connection: Egwene does seem to "see to nature" quite a bit in aMoL. Anyway, this is admittedly a whacky theory. Feel free not to add Egwene to the voting list. But... thoughts? I like it. Very interesting, especially the part about it being a counterpart to balefire. I bet you many of the answers we seek will be revealed when we see these issues in the light of Jordan's fundemental concept of this series, the idea of balance. One or the other alone doens't work well, but together things are as they should be. Me too! have been very curious for a while but hadn't drawn that conclusion at all, I will take this as the truth of it unless a better theory pops up, cheers.xx. have just read the above theory as well as the Egwqene one and i prefer the top one!
  3. @jack of the shadows Yay! A reply! Yeah, it would have been nice if he had sorted Aviendha out on his way, but maybe he can help her later on? I keep wishing there was a prologue booklet being written, just to get a teeny bit of insight into what happens after, Brandon if you bother reading all this......I'd buy it straight away. On the other hand, maybe having lost the use of her legs will help Aviendha to be a better wise one, and not mourn the loss of her Far Dareis Mai status, Although I did think she had largely come to terms with that transition anyway.
  4. Aaaaah, well said, there were some bits I wasn't into but overall I was so pleased someone was finishing it, and although it would have been better left in its creator's hands, I very much enjoyed it with BS on board, and the horror and sadness I felt when I heard that RJ was dying was appeased a little ( for the story's sake, obviously not for the people who knew and loved him) when I heard a while later that another was taking on the task Again, cheers and well done, xxxxxxx
  5. It seems to me that the powers she displays in ToM were akin to what Rand did in the end with his pipe, as well as how he made food taste good again. She seemed to have managed to add more coals to the fire, and make delicious food. Plus, the inspiration for her comes from deep in RJ's notes on Rand. All this suggests there is a connection to Rand. Another thing to note is that Nakomi's name is an obvious derivative of Nokomis, an Iroquois name meaning "Daughter of the Moon" as well as "Grandmother". These names can fit Lanfear very well, but even though I can imagine a situation where she wants the Aiel to survive, I can't see her helping Aviendha of all people, nor can she possibly have said anything to Rand when he came out of SG (she was dead by then). The only other character that can be called Daughter of the Moon, and Grand Mother, is Egwene. I really resist this idea, because for Nakomi to be Egwene, we'd need to have time travel involved. But consider these quotes: Its been constantly remarked that Egwene could easily be Aiel. She even considers that she has an Aiel heart... could she just be Aiel at heart? And then there's the manner of her death. One way or another, her weave plays with time. Its supposed to freeze someone in time, but what if it does more? After all, there are ripple effects to balefire's burning of threads back in time. What if there are ripple effects to the Flame too? What if, instead of unspooling the Pattern, using the Flame does the opposite, and creates events in the past that allow the Pattern to be stabilized in the future? This is admittedly so far out as to be ridiculous. But perhaps by this or some other mechanism, Egwene was actually there for Aviendha and the Aiel, and is responsible for the remnant of the remnant (the heart of the Aiel?) surviving? And her role with Rand in the end also would make sense. We had a lot of foreshadowing of Egwene "killing" Rand. Instead, she nudges him along the path that will "help him die" but not kill him. So, my theory is this: Nakomi is an ancient name, referring to a soul that's a counterpart to the Dragon's. She complements his purpose (as did Egwene), and also has strong ties to the Aiel. Perhaps her last birth was as an Aiel Wise One, and this is the form she choses to take even after her death in this life. After the death of Egwene's body, perhaps because of the manner of her death, Nakomi was able to do several things. Firstly, as Egwene, she conversed with Rand about death. Then she saw to the Aiel. Then she returned one last time to nudge Rand towards his "death". And a little bit more to hint at a connection: Egwene does seem to "see to nature" quite a bit in aMoL. Anyway, this is admittedly a whacky theory. Feel free not to add Egwene to the voting list. But... thoughts? I like it. Very interesting, especially the part about it being a counterpart to balefire. I bet you many of the answers we seek will be revealed when we see these issues in the light of Jordan's fundemental concept of this series, the idea of balance. One or the other alone doens't work well, but together things are as they should be. Me too! have been very curious for a while but hadn't drawn that conclusion at all, I will take this as the truth of it unless a better theory pops up, cheers.xx.
  6. It doesn't have anything to do with telepathy. The girls were watching him. They saw him take out his pipe. They saw him raise his hand, then look at the pipe with a look of resigned acceptance. They're not dumb, either of them (but sounds like ELayne to me) could have guessed what happened and lit his pipe for him. I think he was left with the ability to bend the pattern to his will, I don't think the girls lit it for him, I think he got beyond the usual restrictions and rules of the world.
  7. Agreed, felt really ripped off for them, but in my imaginings of what may have come after, Rand would have gone to see them and spend time and explained it all to Tam and Nyneave, and some of the other characters. He just needed to get out of there at this point, and needed at least some of his loved ones to grieve for him at his funeral otherwise it would not be very convincing as a fake death, already bad enough that his girls are not seeming. sad he is gone
  8. After reading the whole thread, there are only three things I feel like I can add. Lots of good info, well worth the 45 pages. In response to the above, as others have said, Rand seems to have been burned out. This makes perfect sense--it is clear from a POV from Moiraine in New Spring that I just read (her first POV, Chapter 2, I believe), that someone who is stilled can sense the One Power but cannot touch it, but that someone who has been burned out cannot sense the power at all. I believe the Setalle Anan a'dam incident referred to this as well. Rand's condition is exactly what we would expect someone who has been burned out to be (Real Power weirdness aside). The bond survived Rand's burning out either because Elayne "owns" the bond (in that case the warder being burned out doesn't effect it at all), or because of the other bond voodoo she did to include Min, which probably applied to Rand as well, or both. Damer Flinn Healed some Aes Sedai who got severed from Rand breaking the shield at Dumai's Wells. I cannot recall if these Aes Sedai were burned out or stilled from this, but if they were burned out and he Healed them, then it would stand to reason that Rand could be Healed and be able to channel the One Power. If they were just stilled, then I'm not sure we know if burning out can be Healed or not. However, Rand seemed pretty excited about not being able to channel, so it's doubtful he would want to be Healed, unless it's to live longer. The second thing is, I wasn't bothered at all by Rand riding away at the end. I expected him to ride away. He needed to get out of there--he is, for all intents and purposes, Moridin. He's one of the Forsaken; Nae'blis, one of the most evil people to ever live. He deserves to die for the countless deaths he's caused. I can't imagine that he would be treated very well. I don't think convincing people that he's Rand would be that easy. WE know it's Rand, but a Lightfollower might find it easier to believe that sometime before Rand died, Moridin snatched some memories and assumed the bond. Pevara and Androl have some memory swapping going on. Who knows what might happen when you get your flows all linked up with the Dragon Reborn and mess with the Dark One? Thereafter Moridin creepily (but smartly) sends warm and loving thoughts to Aviendha, Min, and Elyane, yet is otherwise clearly stark raving mad; little seals floating about in his eyes, talking about body swaps, and lighting little fires with his mind. Memory planting and weird bond trickiness are all stuff we've seen in the series. The Light could just as easily believe that as a body swap. So Rand trying to explain away the body swap seems a bit problematic to me. Much better to sneak away and lay low for a while. They're even probably going to look for him; and heads will roll for letting him escape. I knew the body swap was coming, and I kept wondering how he was going to get out of there as Moridin without being noticed. Not to mention the Dragon's Peace needs him to be dead. Lastly, just a quick comparison of the final moments we see of Lews Therin vs. the final moments we see of Rand al'Thor. At beginning of The Eye of the World, Lews Therin has gone mad and destroyed the world. In healing him, Ishamael gives him his life back. Lews Therin "awakes" and sees himself alive, and his family dead. He killed them. He goes away. He takes in the One Power in massive quantities. He leaves behind a huge mountain. He kills himself, thinking of those he loved. Contrast that with... At the end of A Memory of Light, Rand has survived madness and saved the world. Moridin, willing or not, gives Rand his life back. Rand awakes and sees himself dead, and his family alive. He kept them alive. He goes away. The One Power is gone, a relief. He leaves behind an empty tent. He lives, thinking of those he loved. And has a smoke. Beginning and end. Opposite, yet the same. Pain, selfishness, a mountain, a legacy of fear and dread, vs. joy, selflessness, nothing, a legacy of peace and hope. Very striking to me. That's all I have to add. I greatly enjoyed this thread. Really enjoyed reading this post, hadn't thought of the ending/beginning balance thing in that way before, Cheers x
  9. I think we just didn't get to read about Alivia being assigned her task, we know she knew she had to help him die, and I think she would have known that she was helping Rand Al Thor the saver of the world to die, to enable rand the person to live on unmolested, to free him of connection to his previous role, I don't think she was acting blindly, thinking she was helping the other man to escape. I reckon that Min, Rand, Nyneave and Moiraine worked this out and told her how they figured her role would be, and shared this information with Elayne and Aviendha.
  10. So Rand would have had to seriously affect and damage all of mankind, removing an aspect of every single person's personality, to "kill' the dark one, as the DO is a manifestation of the darker side of human nature, that should never have been allowed tho touch the world as he did after the bore was made. I was pretty pleased with how existential and philosophical the whole sequence between the DO and Rand got, as I have had trouble with the idea of the DO as a 'person' or entity from the beginning, the idea was out of keeping with the well thought out complexity of the rest of the world, and I love the idea that all the people in the story pretty much thought of the DO as an entity til near the end, that their long held beliefs turned out to be not quite right. It all add to the layers of complexity and realism of the world created. But the Dark One is no longer touching the Pattern. The Wheel still spins, the Pattern still weaves. There is both good and evil in their world. Free will and choice remain. Yet the Dark One does not. Rand's just doomed the world to another cycle and another battle. I think that's the whole point, the inevitability of the situation. Kill the dark one? I was slight incredulous when I was reading that. To me, that's like trying to kill Fear. I thought the imagined world without the Dark One was appropriate, It was a completely new world, not the one after the Last Battle, So these people would have never known the negative emotions associated with the Dark One, ie Fear, Hate, Jealousy, Anger. I find the decision to not "Kill" the Dark One appropriate. It seems apparent to me that although the Dark One is said to exist outside of the Pattern, It is also still very much apart of the Pattern. That the True Power co exists with Saidar and Saidin as making up the pattern. Which to me fits with the notion that the Bore was drilled by channellers trying to find a new source of power. If the True Power had not been part of the Pattern or at least connected then how could anyone possibly have known to go looking for it. I have a question regarding the final scene with Rand, He reaches for the One Power and find he has no ability anymore, But then wills his pipe to ignite? What exactly is going on there? Is this alluding to the fact he no longer requires the One Power and weaving it to still have abilities to create and destroy? Or is he something else now? I agree with all your points, and as to your question at the end, I equate his ability to will the pipe alight and to make things grow as akin to or something similar to how things can be changed at will in Tel'aran'rhiod, by a person with enough strength of mind and the right training and experience. I think after all he went through and the things he learned about the world and the pattern, he is left able to bend it to his will, just like Perrin and Egwene mastered the World of Dreams. That is just my opinion, but I liked how neatly it fit. I think for Rand it may have been a relief to no longer be a channeller, and to no longer look like or be Rand Al Thor, so he could be free to live as he wished from then on, but it would have been a bit anticlimactic for him to end up just like other normals, with normal lifespan and no cool abilities at all, and being burned out or stilled often kills a person, as there seems nothing left to live for, but with his ability to bend the pattern to his will this would not have been an issue. That's what I thought, any further opinions welcome, i love reading about everyone's personal reasoning out of these issues that were left for us to reason out, of which there were many. As to the doom of another cycle.... isn't that just the nature of people, both in the WoT and our world? The ebb and flow of light and dark and lessons learned, unlearned and learned again? Life wouldn't be a journey without this constant process.
  11. So Rand would have had to seriously affect and damage all of mankind, removing an aspect of every single person's personality, to "kill' the dark one, as the DO is a manifestation of the darker side of human nature, that should never have been allowed tho touch the world as he did after the bore was made. I was pretty pleased with how existential and philosophical the whole sequence between the DO and Rand got, as I have had trouble with the idea of the DO as a 'person' or entity from the beginning, the idea was out of keeping with the well thought out complexity of the rest of the world, and I love the idea that all the people in the story pretty much thought of the DO as an entity til near the end, that their long held beliefs turned out to be not quite right. It all add to the layers of complexity and realism of the world created. But the Dark One is no longer touching the Pattern. The Wheel still spins, the Pattern still weaves. There is both good and evil in their world. Free will and choice remain. Yet the Dark One does not. Rand's just doomed the world to another cycle and another battle. I think that's the whole point, the inevitability of the situation. Kill the dark one? I was slight incredulous when I was reading that. To me, that's like trying to kill Fear. I thought the imagined world without the Dark One was appropriate, It was a completely new world, not the one after the Last Battle, So these people would have never known the negative emotions associated with the Dark One, ie Fear, Hate, Jealousy, Anger. I find the decision to not "Kill" the Dark One appropriate. It seems apparent to me that although the Dark One is said to exist outside of the Pattern, It is also still very much apart of the Pattern. That the True Power co exists with Saidar and Saidin as making up the pattern. Which to me fits with the notion that the Bore was drilled by channellers trying to find a new source of power. If the True Power had not been part of the Pattern or at least connected then how could anyone possibly have known to go looking for it. I have a question regarding the final scene with Rand, He reaches for the One Power and find he has no ability anymore, But then wills his pipe to ignite? What exactly is going on there? Is this alluding to the fact he no longer requires the One Power and weaving it to still have abilities to create and destroy? Or is he something else now? I agree with all your points, and as to your question at the end, I equate his ability to will the pipe alight and to make things grow as akin to or something similar to how things can be changed at will in Tel'aran'rhiod, by a person with enough strength of mind and the right training and experience. I think after all he went through and the things he learned about the world and the pattern, he is left able to bend it to his will, just like Perrin and Egwene mastered the World of Dreams. That is just my opinion, but I liked how neatly it fit. I think for Rand it may have been a relief to no longer be a channeller, and to no longer look like or be Rand Al Thor, so he could be free to live as he wished from then on, but it would have been a bit anticlimactic for him to end up just like other normals, with normal lifespan and no cool abilities at all, and being burned out or stilled often kills a person, as there seems nothing left to live for, but with his ability to bend the pattern to his will this would not have been an issue. That's what I thought, any further opinions welcome, i love reading about everyone's personal reasoning out of these issues that were left for us to reason out, of which there were many.
  12. I agree, there was that bit when Thom is musing for the right words to use to describe the last bit of Tarmon Gaidon, and i was thrown as if physically from the story, as I pictured the writer just typing exactly what was going on for him in his head, ah, blood and ashes, I can't think of a good enough word for this, it's too big a moment for a word, right, I'll write about the story teller trying to think of the right way of phrasing it. I also would have loved a more flowing conclusion, with slightly more info about the characters and what becomes of the main ones, at least tell me about Elayne birthing and naming her babes, a couple pf paragraphs about what began just after the last battle, how many kids does Perrin have with Faile? What about Lan and Nyneave etc The list would be pretty long and I'm just being greedy,I guess. I didn't want it to end. For me, the big problem with the Thom scene was that it wasn't describing the Brandon writing process - rather than work to find the best word, the perfect phrasing, he just threw down some words, went back and tidied them up, and then called it done. The problem with that is that changing how the characters sound after so many books is jarring. There is a similar example in the series Malazan Book of the Fallen, where characters spend the fist six books using exclusively curses native to their world - Togg's Teats, Beru fend, and so on - but then in book seven onwards, the word f**k is used (he uses it without asterisks, of course - bloody PG 13 rules on this site stop you using all the fun words. Well, except hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliaphobia). People picked up on it and were annoyed, in a way they wouldn't have been had the characters simply said f**k from the beginning. I would prefer it if the characters in WoT sounded like characters in WoT, not like characters in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Most people weren't annoyed when he took over. When he took over, his work was unfamiliar to most of us, but we were glad we had someone to finish it. We were annoyed when the books were split into three (to the point when debate on the subject got banned here for a period of several months, in order to let people cool down). TGS was well received, despite a few quibbles. ToM was not as well received - it was between that and AMoL that people really started to voice complaints in earnest about how BS and TJ were doing things. Hee hee! What does hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliaphobia mean??? best word I've never heard of. I guess I just love the story so so much that I embraced a lot of the differences in style and got on with it in my excitement to find out what happens. I'm glad I'm not the only one who found the Thom scene lacking a bit, and I read in earlier posts that others also didn't like some of how the battle was written, so much going on so fast that a bit of re-reading had to be done to follow it properly. More than anything though I'm really pleased to have found this forum, it is a joy to discuss my favourite story with others who share my obsession, and have read to the end, whether they liked it or not, as although I have managed to get my boyfriend to read them (after 3 years of going on about it) he is only halfway through FoH, and soo many bits are still off limit for me to talk about. Halfway through tEotW he asked if Moiraine is good or evil, and I had to just tell him to keep reading and find out, then a bit later in the series he said, 'So, what's with Verin Sedai? Is she good or bad? She seems well dodgy but then helps the girls out loads, and I don't buy her innatentive/distracted act one bit, something's going on there' and I just had to tell him that that particular plotline is a long one, and to persevere. I am very wary of him hearing all the complaints about the last book, as I don't want him to be put off, it is still the most amazing tale, and I am very glad to have read them all, even if some things could have been done differently towards the end. So it's great to be able to freely chat on here about it and get other peoples opinions on stuff, Thank you for your input x
  13. the covers for a crown of swords and winters heart are amazing, but I think towers of midight has the best
  14. Critique ≠ bashing. There were a small handfull of trolls who took it into bashing but the vast majority of us have offered a reasoned critique and thanked Brandon for his work. Not sure why you are trying to present some revisionist history but let's look at what I said about the book for instance: Now just because I thought the above does not mean I am going to pull punches for the issues that presented themselves. Those issues jump out even more so on subsequent re-reads. Btw it's not just Brandon when people discuss some of the issues. Team Jordan and how rushed the books were get called out as well. thank you for reminding me of the Cup of Sleep and the Malkieri, i got goosebumps all over again, and well said for the rest
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