Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Yamezt]

 

I think Egwene's death would have worked better if the reaction to it was more than four throwaway lines from Leanne, Mat, Perrin and Nynaeve. That was just dumb, and completely unrealistic. Elayne couldn't possibly have reacted to it as sanguinely as she's depicted to. Would have been nice to see the WO mourn too, as well as her closest Aes Sedai friends.

 

I felt it was completely absurd that we didn't get some of that in Rand's last PoV. Maybe RJ would have added it in his second pass at the scene, and Brandon just didn't want to change what RJ wrote, but to me, it seemed like it would have been perfect if, when Rand left SG, he planned to make a trip of the world, but start with a trip to Merrilor to pay his respects to the fallen heroes, Egwene at the top of the list. It would have been a perfect resolution to the "list", if he planned to go there and make sure all the dead were remembered and honored. Maybe he'd visit the pillar of crystal Egwene left behind, her own Dragonmount, of sorts. 

 

Of course, another thing that would have made this better is if 'the Flame of Tar Valon" had more buildup. Brandon said the weave was noted, so it isn't like the weave was to die with her. I'd have liked to see more discussion of what it was, its connection to cuendillar (if it exists), and how Egwene came up with it. Would have been nice to see some Aes Sedai use it too, to further shore up the Pattern, and kill some Trollocs. Would have been awesome if the remaining AS linked and started throwing it at the Trolloc hordes.

 

Plus, did anyone find it weird that she didn't link with Narishma and Merise? When I saw those two nearby when she was fighting Taim, I thought it was the perfect mirror to Rand facing the DO with a circle. She could have released them and made the conscious choice to overextend herself after Taim was killed. I just found it weird that she never used saidin. Seemed to be a major thematic miss, for me.

 

Er, Egwene pillar is buried under rubble.No dragonmount there!!

A mountain protruding from the land and a cave-in.

 

Hmm.... 

[fionwe1987]

I am wondering, in the end can we say the Gawyn killed Egwene? Without him dying pointlessly Egwene wouldn't draw as much as she did. Demandred was dead anyway so arguably the army of Light doesn't really need her to wipe out of enemy channelers in one strike. Surely Logain with a circle or maybe with Taim's sa'angreal and wipe them out easily?

Egwene drew more than she could handle because she was evenly matched with Taim, and she needed to kill him before he destabilized the Pattern further. She didn't do it accidentally. It was a calculated decision. Once she'd finished him, she drew on even more of the OP because she knew she had to make an absolutely gigantic weave to overcome the effects of hours of excessive Balefire use. I doubt she'd have done any different if Gawyn were alive.

 

@Master Ablar:

 

How else do you suggest she should have beaten Taim? I doubt she could have formed a circle on the spot or anything.

[MasterAblar]

@Master Ablar:

 

How else do you suggest she should have beaten Taim? I doubt she could have formed a circle on the spot or anything.

 

I honestly have no idea . I just thought she resorted to brute strength a little too quickly. Maybe someone else could have distracted Taim while they were fighting *shrug*.

[Elan Tedronai]

egwene's death was a product of sanderson. Nothing more nothing less.

 

eventually after years and the enclyopedia already out the truth will eventually merge.

 

To be honest, you could tell.

 

The lack of emotion on the super girls, the laughable taim battle, the addition of 'oh noes vora's sangreal has no buffer' last minute etc etc.

 

His refusal to come out and say outright whether he nerfed egwene or was it RJ just seals the deal.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Elan Tedronai

[Agitel]

I don't doubt that Brandon is responsible for Egwene's death sequence. I'm not ruling out a simple note from Jordan either saying that she would die or that he was considering killing her off. The matter of her dying doesn't seem wrong though, even if it was Brandon's choice. My issue is that the execution (pun only slightly intended) was a little corny.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Agitel

[Yamezt]

egwene's death was a product of sanderson. Nothing more nothing less.

 

eventually after years and the enclyopedia already out the truth will eventually merge.

 

To be honest, you could tell.

 

The lack of emotion on the super girls, the laughable taim battle, the addition of 'oh noes vora's sangreal has no buffer' last minute etc etc.

 

His refusal to come out and say outright whether he nerfed egwene or was it RJ just seals the deal.

Vora's Sa'angreal lack of buffer was apparently in RJ's notes. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=940

 

 

 

Q: Vora's sa'angreal - was it always in the notes that it didn't have the buffer against over-drawing? 

A: Yes, that was always it’s setup according to the notes, though Brandon gets credit for naming the thing.

Edited April 3, 2013 by James Tham

[Rhienne]

egwene's death was a product of sanderson. Nothing more nothing less.

 

eventually after years and the enclyopedia already out the truth will eventually merge.

 

To be honest, you could tell.

 

The lack of emotion on the super girls, the laughable taim battle, the addition of 'oh noes vora's sangreal has no buffer' last minute etc etc.

 

His refusal to come out and say outright whether he nerfed egwene or was it RJ just seals the deal.

Not sure why BS didn't come out and say whether he or RJ had planned Egwene's death as one of the parts RJ wrote in the epilogue refers to Cadsuane being cornered to be made Amyrlin (I think its Rand's POV which RJ definitely wrote) which wouldn't happen if Egwene wasn't dead.

[Yamezt]

Maybe Egwene's fate was one of those multiple choice options RJ left BS. Shrug. Though that seems unlikely.

[XXX]

egwene's death was a product of sanderson. Nothing more nothing less.

 

eventually after years and the enclyopedia already out the truth will eventually merge.

 

To be honest, you could tell.

 

The lack of emotion on the super girls, the laughable taim battle, the addition of 'oh noes vora's sangreal has no buffer' last minute etc etc.

 

His refusal to come out and say outright whether he nerfed egwene or was it RJ just seals the deal.

 

If RJ intended Cads to become Amyrlin,he intended Egwene to die.Doubt tht u can blame Sanderson for it. However the manner of death was real cheesy,tht I think was pure Sanderson.

[Suttree]

Not saying it was Brandon's call as we truly don't know but death isn't the only reason Cads could have become Amyrlin. There are a number of other scenarios like burning out etc.

[Rhienne]

Not saying it was Brandon's call as we truly don't know but death isn't the only reason Cads could have become Amyrlin. There are a number of other scenarios like burning out etc.

Good point r.e. burning out.  I can't think of too many other scenarios where it would happen though as Egwene was obviously planning on staying Amyrlin from her speech to Tuon.  I think even if Egwene had been burnt out it is unrealistic that RJ wouldn't have written her a POV for the epilogue as he wrote one for all the main surviving characters.  Additionally, Egwene isn't present or mentioned as alive in any other POVs written by RJ.  Plus Perrin's epiogue POV references her death.  I think RJ wrote that one?

Edited April 3, 2013 by Rhienne

[Yamezt]

With regards to Vora's Sa'angreal lack of buffer, I have always found characters commenting about it being "perhaps the most powerful" always a bit odd. Perhaps there can be certain situations where another Sa'angreal can be more powerful than another, or their relative strength granted differ from person to person, but I did not try to work out any. But if it was intended to be a foreshadowing by RJ, it was somewhat vague. And if it was intended to be read as a foreshadowing, then it implies there is another Sa'angreal of around Vora's Sa'angreal's strength.

Edited April 4, 2013 by James Tham

[Rhienne]

With regards to Vora's Sa'angreal lack of buffer, I have always found characters commenting about it being "perhaps the most powerful" always a bit odd. Perhaps there can be certain situations where another Sa'angreal can be more powerful than another, or their relative strength granted differ from person to person, but I did not try to work out any. But if it was intended to be a foreshadowing by RJ, it was somewhat vague. And if it was intended to be read as a foreshadowing, then it implies there is another Sa'angreal of around Vora's Sa'angreal's strength.

I took it to mean that the it was the most powerful sa'angreal the AS had come across, and they just didn't know if there were any in existence which were more powerful.

[Yamezt]

 

With regards to Vora's Sa'angreal lack of buffer, I have always found characters commenting about it being "perhaps the most powerful" always a bit odd. Perhaps there can be certain situations where another Sa'angreal can be more powerful than another, or their relative strength granted differ from person to person, but I did not try to work out any. But if it was intended to be a foreshadowing by RJ, it was somewhat vague. And if it was intended to be read as a foreshadowing, then it implies there is another Sa'angreal of around Vora's Sa'angreal's strength.

I took it to mean that the it was the most powerful sa'angreal the AS had come across, and they just didn't know if there were any in existence which were more powerful.

In tDR:

 

"Egwene had never seen the wand before, but she recognized it from a lecture Anaiya had given the novices. One of the few sa’angreal, and perhaps the most powerful, that the Tower possessed."

 

In tGS, I think Egwene commented it was "one of the most powerful" - instead of "the most powerful." - Which was a fair continuity on that line of thought she had in tDR. Though, I am pretty sure Siuan subsequently commented it was the strongest in tGS

 

Anyway it has always struck me as odd.

 

Did Anaiya suggest that it -might- be the most powerful the Tower possessed in the novice lectures?

Or was it the only Sa'angreal ever mentioned in the lectures and so Egwene inferred it was the most powerful?

 

If it was former, then why the ambiguity on the relative strength the Sa'angreals the WT possessed. It also implies at least 1 other Sa'angreal of close strength the WT possessed (not that it matters since I cannot imagine Vora Sa'angreal being anywhere in the upper echelons of Sa'angreal) - This could imply the other Sa'angreal(s) of close strength has a buffer, and the lack of buffer gives the ambiguity. Again, I would say that even if it was even intended to be a hint Vora's Sa'angreal had no buffer (and I am doubtful), it was a very very thin hint barely worth noting.

If the latter, then Egwene made a wild (and lucky ) stab in the dark that Siuan confirmed - and possibly others confirmed it. But I cannot remember.

Edited April 4, 2013 by James Tham

[fionwe1987]

Not saying it was Brandon's call as we truly don't know but death isn't the only reason Cads could have become Amyrlin. There are a number of other scenarios like burning out etc.

That's what I was thinking. A burned out, but alive-yet-no-longer-Amyrlin Egwene would be a gr8 parallel to Rand. On the other hand, a dead Egwene is a perfect parallel to Lews Therin and Eldrene as well. I think RJ left it open as to which option to pick, and Brandon picked the death.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

With regards to Vora's Sa'angreal lack of buffer, I have always found characters commenting about it being "perhaps the most powerful" always a bit odd. Perhaps there can be certain situations where another Sa'angreal can be more powerful than another, or their relative strength granted differ from person to person, but I did not try to work out any. But if it was intended to be a foreshadowing by RJ, it was somewhat vague. And if it was intended to be read as a foreshadowing, then it implies there is another Sa'angreal of around Vora's Sa'angreal's strength.

I took it to mean that the it was the most powerful sa'angreal the AS had come across, and they just didn't know if there were any in existence which were more powerful.

In tDR:

 

"Egwene had never seen the wand before, but she recognized it from a lecture Anaiya had given the novices. One of the few sa’angreal, and perhaps the most powerful, that the Tower possessed."

 

In tGS, I think Egwene commented it was "one of the most powerful" - instead of "the most powerful." - Which was a fair continuity on that line of thought she had in tDR. Though, I am pretty sure Siuan subsequently commented it was the strongest in tGS

 

Anyway it has always struck me as odd.

 

Did Anaiya suggest that it -might- be the most powerful the Tower possessed in the novice lectures?

Or was it the only Sa'angreal ever mentioned in the lectures and so Egwene inferred it was the most powerful?

 

If it was former, then why the ambiguity on the relative strength the Sa'angreals the WT possessed. It also implies at least 1 other Sa'angreal of close strength the WT possessed (not that it matters since I cannot imagine Vora Sa'angreal being anywhere in the upper echelons of Sa'angreal) - This could imply the other Sa'angreal(s) of close strength has a buffer, and the lack of buffer gives the ambiguity. Again, I would say that even if it was even intended to be a hint Vora's Sa'angreal had no buffer (and I am doubtful), it was a very very thin hint barely worth noting.

If the latter, then Egwene made a wild (and lucky ) stab in the dark that Siuan confirmed - and possibly others confirmed it. But I cannot remember.

I think what is likely the case is that it hadn't been tested out to its upper limits. The Aes Sedai seem to have a fear of too much saidar, and Vora's sa'angreal is probably overkill for most situations. There might be other sa'angreal that come close, but are weaker by a significant margin in truth, except no one found out because they never tested the limits of the white fluted wand. 

 

What is certain is that using it to its maximum extend short of overdrawing, Egwene was able to exactly match Taim with Sakarnen. And since Sakarnen is rated by the men to be in Callandor range, that is where we must place Vora's wand. 

[Rhienne]

 

Not saying it was Brandon's call as we truly don't know but death isn't the only reason Cads could have become Amyrlin. There are a number of other scenarios like burning out etc.

That's what I was thinking. A burned out, but alive-yet-no-longer-Amyrlin Egwene would be a gr8 parallel to Rand. On the other hand, a dead Egwene is a perfect parallel to Lews Therin and Eldrene as well. I think RJ left it open as to which option to pick, and Brandon picked the death.

Don't Perrin and Nynaeve talk about Egwene's death in Perrin's POV in the epligoue (which was written by RJ)?

[fionwe1987]

 

 

 

Not saying it was Brandon's call as we truly don't know but death isn't the only reason Cads could have become Amyrlin. There are a number of other scenarios like burning out etc.

 

That's what I was thinking. A burned out, but alive-yet-no-longer-Amyrlin Egwene would be a gr8 parallel to Rand. On the other hand, a dead Egwene is a perfect parallel to Lews Therin and Eldrene as well. I think RJ left it open as to which option to pick, and Brandon picked the death.

Don't Perrin and Nynaeve talk about Egwene's death in Perrin's POV in the epligoue (which was written by RJ)?

I think the scenario would be that Egwene is burned out but presumed dead. Not exactly sure how that works. Maybe she becomes a Wise One, and the Aiel protect her secret? There's a load of foreshadowing about Egwene becoming a Wise One...

[Mats Spare Hat]

I had this whackadoodle thought the other night about how the phantasm dressed in aiel clothes at the end, which alot of folks including myself believe to be Nakomi, is actually the form of Egwene a la hero of the horn...Which would then mean she would have to be one, or else have at that point in time become one.

It all goes downhill from there, and I didn't bother to check the timing of death vs. blowing of the horn, but hey, I did say it was whackadoodle, and it's more fun to think about it if you gloss over the terrible execution of including such a character in the manner of which we see, when Rand's making his way out of the Pit and such.

[fionwe1987]

I had this whackadoodle thought the other night about how the phantasm dressed in aiel clothes at the end, which alot of folks including myself believe to be Nakomi, is actually the form of Egwene a la hero of the horn...Which would then mean she would have to be one, or else have at that point in time become one.

 

It all goes downhill from there, and I didn't bother to check the timing of death vs. blowing of the horn, but hey, I did say it was whackadoodle, and it's more fun to think about it if you gloss over the terrible execution of including such a character in the manner of which we see, when Rand's making his way out of the Pit and such.

Yeah, I thought the same, with the argument being that she disguised herself because she didn't want to shock Rand into his senses and thereby interfere with his transfer to Moridin's body.

 

The only problem is, we've seen Nakomi before, and it defies reason for two old Aiel women with mysterious powers to appear. And while I had whacko ideas about the Nakomi Aviendha meets being Egwene too, as a side effect of her weave (it stabilizes the Pattern, and the Aiel's place in the Dragon's Peace does the same, I think). The argument basically was that just as Balefire kind of "travels back in time" and causes chaos by killing the target too early, the Flame of Tar Valon allows the person using the weave to Travel back and change certain things so the Pattern gets stronger.

 

But that was all shot to hell when Brandon said Nakomi was not anyone we've seen before. That shoots down Verin, and Egwene as well.

 

ETA: As for time of death vs. the blowing of the Horn, she died before the Horn was blown. As for what she was doing when the Horn was blown at Merrilor, the answer is simple: she shot straight off to talk to Rand and help him come to grips with her death, just as Noal and Birgette shot straight off to those who needed them most.

Edited April 4, 2013 by fionwe1987

[Yamezt]

I hold the view that heroes of the horn can't channel.

 

As cool as the idea that they could appear in the world with all their past lives knowledge of weaves from different ages (and within ages) (and that sounds like Avatar the Last Airbender), we have no evidence that anyone who can channel is tied to the horn. We do not know if the Dragon is/was dead, that the horn can summon him as well.

 

I can't see dead channellers being any greater than living channellers (baring all the knowledge of past lives). But dead archers seem to be greater than living archers for eg.

Edited April 4, 2013 by James Tham

[Suttree]

I hold the view that heroes of the horn can't channel.

 

As cool as the idea that they could appear in the world with all their past lives knowledge of weaves from different ages (and within ages) (and that sounds like Avatar the Last Airbender), we have no evidence that anyone who can channel is tied to the horn. We do not know if the Dragon is/was dead, that the horn can summon him as well. 

Per RJ Rand's soul is a HotH.

[fionwe1987]

I hold the view that heroes of the horn can't channel.

 

As cool as the idea that they could appear in the world with all their past lives knowledge of weaves from different ages (and within ages) (and that sounds like Avatar the Last Airbender), we have no evidence that anyone who can channel is tied to the horn. We do not know if the Dragon is/was dead, that the horn can summon him as well.

 

I can't see dead channellers being any greater than living channellers (baring all the knowledge of past lives). But dead archers seem to be greater than living archers for eg.

Maria, in a recent Q&A, confirmed that channelers can indeed be Heroes. Which makes sense, since Rand is one too. 

 

The real interesting question is how Heroes who're Dreamers/Dreamwalkers are different. We saw that Birgette, while not sucking at TAR as a Hero, was no match for Moghedien. But what happens when a Hero is a Dreamwalker? Could they, perhaps, do crazy things like step out of the Pattern at a place where TAR meets the real world? Could they, perhaps, do this and still manage to avoid being detected by the DO? That is certainly one way to explain Rand's conversation with Egwene in SG.

 

And if Egwene was the "old Aiel woman", it fits other foreshadowing linking her to Rand's "death". If she gave him encouragement and support in his body-swap, she can be said to have been involved in his death, just as was Foreshadowed in her Accepted Test, but with completely different interpretations. 

 

I'm beginning to wonder if Nakomi wasn't just created to throw us off this trail? After all, if RJ wrote that scene of Rand exiting SG, he wrote that old woman in. And if she's meant to be Egwene, then it makes perfect sense for Brandon to say that he won't comment on who killed Egwene, because she did come back, and that was RJ, but this wasn't obvious, and that was due to the way he wrote her death, and left it ambiguous whether she was actually outside the Pattern, talking to Rand. 

 

Her coming back this way for a brief time also nicely parallels Rand's end, to an extent, because she came back in a body no one could recognize. 

 

I know this is a pretty whacky theory. But it ties in a lot of things without us needing to come up with out-of-the-book mechanisms.

 

Thoughts?

[Yamezt]

Now and forever, channelling HotH are imprinted with 

 in my head QQ

 

Cool Nakomi-Egwene theory.

[BFG]

Please keep this on topic guys