Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[BlueSun]

 

Wait are you trying to claim Ishy didn't start the BA? They were targeted by the shadow. The BA was started centuries ago by Ishy during one of the intervals that he was loose from the bore. The WT was the premiere power and as such Ishy made it a mission to infiltrate from the inside. AS can not be held accountable for his actions.

 

I did NOT claim that..... Ishy had an enormous influence on events of the 3rd Age.... Was the WT "responsible" for creating the BA?... No.... We're they responsible for letting fester and spread? Absolutely... They were so terrified and willfully blind, they couldn't even admit the BA's existence to each other until the Tower was near to breaking..... We're they the best institution in the 3rd Age to stand against the Shadow? Without question or doubt........

 

 

As for the rest you are looking at it all wrong. That 1/3 rotates in and out, virtually every sisters room we see has mementos from a long life lived out working in the world. It is not solely the same 1/3 out working. You are taking the rest of those things far too literally, much of that is merely rumors and the like. Certain countries do view them with trepidation while in others they are openly welcomed and treated far differently.

 

Please don't tell me I'm "looking at things wrong". It is a common vibe I get from your replies and it is unnecessary.

 

The main point I was trying to make is that there is not much evidence of the AS working in society itself. A few sentences here and there an epic 14 novels series is simply unfulfilling to me. As I said earlier, no mention was made of AS using the Power to enhance crops or help preserve food stores for the winter or create Power-forged tools or educate the children or simply integrate into the world at large. Quibbling about percentages and rotations out of the Tower doesn't change deficiency for me.

 

And, yes, different countries have different openness to AS//WT, but are reminded thousands of that they have their own agenda and you gotta watch where you put your foot.

 

EDIT: attempt to correct Quote format

Edited January 21, 2013 by BlueSun

[Suttree]

@BlueSun

 

I thought you were looking at it wrong because:

 

If 1/3 were out in the world, 2/3 never left Tar Valon.... Not really a good ratio.

 

Let me know if I misunderstood but there was no "vibe" in my post. I get your overall point and I thought I was agreeing in part when talking about how the WT is a "failed institution". It's one of the themes RJ was trying to convey, this is a fallen world. Populations are shrinking and the AS along with everyone else is a shadow of their former selves.

[fionwe1987]

I haven't read all the pages of this discussion, but it seems clear to me that, predictably, the discussion on Egwene has veered into a discussion on the Aes Sedai. Because that's what it boils down to, doesn't it? If the Tower had been portrayed as a universally lovable, filled-with-noble-women, self-sacrificing, perfect organization, then Egwene's work for it would have been lauded, and no one would have denied she was doing the right thing.

 

Instead, Egwene got handed the leadership of a divided, flawed, achingly human bunch of women. Yet, we never see her doubt that working for its betterment is a good thing. And the sentiment seems to be... how dare she?

 

I think people need to step back and look at the whole field here. Any number of Aes Sedai have a less than rosy view of the Tower, from Moiraine to Verin to Cadsuane. Yet all these women also love the Tower. Heck, even Nynaeve does. We see in WH that even she was talking about "upholding Aes Sedai dignity". We just don't have as much air-time about these women thinking of the Tower because they're focussed on other tasks.

 

But let's be clear. None of these women would have been able to play their wholly critical roles for the Last Battle but for Egwene. But for Egwene distracting, and later replacing, Elaida, not one of these women would have had as much freedom to do as they did. Or does anyone here want to seriously claim that any Amyrlin but Egwene would have been fine with Nynaeve going to Rand's side of the tent in Merrilor? Do you really see Elaida standing for Moiraine insisting she remember what she Dreamed?

 

But this is the lesser of the reasons to not dislike Egwene's obsession with the Tower. The greater reason is that barring the Dragon Reborn, the Tower was the greatest bulwark against the Shadow. And even the Dragon Reborn wouldn't have had a chance but for them. In the four-front strategy the leaders of the Light command, it is the Tower that dominates the field. It is the Tower that is such a threat to the Shadow that no less than three Foresaken focussed their attentions on it to divide and destroy it. No less a member of the Shadow than Demandred struck at them first, and Demandred's battle in Merrilor would have been a runaway success but for the Tower's heroic battles with the Sharans.

 

When it came down to the end, when the politicking was done (and there wad politicking everywhere but the Borderlands), the Tower banded together, and despite being less skilled in battle than the Sharans, they gave them a battle to remember. Even leaving aside Egwene's final actions, the other Sisters did mighty fine work. They penned up the Sharans by giving up their own lives and their Wader's. And that let Mat deploy whatever other strategy he wanted to in the rest of the battlefield. 

 

And White Tower training and indoctrination has done many bad things. Its made its women stubborn, arrogant, unbending. Its allowed the Black Ajah to exist unquestioned. But it also directly led to hundreds of women with ridiculous amounts of courage standing against impossible odds and refusing to consider surrender. They were professional soldiers as much as those from any of the other armies, but pitted against the toughest foes.

 

Imagine for a minute that Last Battle without the Tower's forces. And that is what they've been preparing for. And that's what Egwene saw them as. A force to be reckoned with, against the Shadow. As they were in the Trolloc Wars, so they were again. 

 

Given how easy it is to detest the Aes Sedai as a whole, its easy to forget how important their unification was. It did not get as much airtime as it did because RJ was trying to make story arcs synchronize (like he did with Elayne's and Perrin's stories). Its there because the fight for the integration for the two halves of the Tower was as important as the fight for the integration of "Lews Therin" and Rand. As hard as the Shadow worked to drive Rand insane, it did as much to destroy the Tower. They had good reason, and but for Egwene, they'd have been the ones throwing the party at Shayol Ghul.

[megalomax]

 

Am I the only one who found the whole anti-Balefire thing to be a bit of an ass-pull?

Not really, Nynaeve did the same thing with compulsion. But the name was cheesy. Flame of Tarvalon

[Celebel]

Yea, while I feel that RJ dumbed the AS down beyond what was reasonable after book 6, there is no doubt that breaking and unification of the White Tower was supposed to to be an extremely important plot-line from early on. Isn't it the longest-running continuous story-line in WoT, the one featuring the largest number of somewhat detailed characters, etc?

 

 

And, as has been mentioned, the White Tower had been targeted and sabotaged by the Shadow over the millenia like no other group of people, no other asociation of channelers. Heck, during the series itself nearly all of the Forsaken tried to do something to undermine it and/or to sick peoples under their control at it. That, apart from the 2(!) specifically dedicated to ruining it and Ishy.

 

 

We saw what happened in lands wholly outside of the White Tower influence, such as Seanchan and Shara and it was much worse. Even the Sea Folk and the Aiel were massively, if indirectly influenced by the White Tower in the terms of preventing the One Power abuse among their channelers so as not to attract the Aes Sedai attention!

 

 

Re: Egwene, I always liked her, even though she was never my favorite character. I am always perplexed that she is reproached for being a bad friend to the superboys when she :

 

 

was the only one of the younger set not to distance herself from Rand once his channeling became known

 

Hid him in Fal Dara

 

Ran away from the White Tower (where she very much wanted to be, despite the hardships) because she was told that the boys were in danger

 

Told Mat about the red ter'angreal doorway despite Moiraine forbidding it, because she wanted to help him and cheer him up

 

Fought for Rand in the battle of Cahirien despite Moiraine's and Wise One's disapproval

 

Intended to go with him to fight Rahvin

 

Tried to protect him from Lanfear

 

IIRC, gave Rand a good advice about Elaida's embassy, that would have spared him capture if he had listened. etc.

 

Her stated goal as Amyrlin was to protect Rand from Elaida and make an alliance beyween him and the WT possible

 

 

Yes, Egwene was also depicted as abrasive and nagging, but apart from legitimate character flaw, that was also due to RJ's quirks in writing female characters in general.

 

 

Also, the things that particularly infuriated a certain sub-set of fans - i.e. Egwene daring to criticize Rand's arrogance, disagreeing with him on some issues and comparing herself to him, have been revealed as somewhat legitimate and even necessary, given Rand's/LTT's very real flaws and Egwene's role as a required counter-balance to Rand, if not an equal.

 

 

So, I am kinda perplexed why the vitriol continues unabated?

Edited January 21, 2013 by Celebel

[Agitel]

 

 

Am I the only one who found the whole anti-Balefire thing to be a bit of an ass-pull?

Not really, Nynaeve did the same thing with compulsion. But the name was cheesy. Flame of Tarvalon

 

It was a bit of a cheesy moment, but we don't need to take the Flame of Tar Valon as an official name like some people want to. That's what it was a symbol of to Egwene. It held the world together against the Shadow, a beacon of light in the dark. 

[XXX]

Egwene is not the equal of Rand.Deal with it.

[megalomax]

 

Egwene is not the equal of Rand.Deal with it.

nice to see you in a thread all about Egwene Edited January 21, 2013 by megalomax

[megalomax]

 

 

 

 

Am I the only one who found the whole anti-Balefire thing to be a bit of an ass-pull?

Not really, Nynaeve did the same thing with compulsion. But the name was cheesy. Flame of Tarvalon

It was a bit of a cheesy moment, but we don't need to take the Flame of Tar Valon as an official name like some people want to. That's what it was a symbol of to Egwene. It held the world together against the Shadow, a beacon of light in the dark.

I guess so. Sounded like Flavonols to me. But I guess the absurdity of it all, Egwene went dragonmount style. Only hers were crystal pillars.

[Rhienne]

I think people need to step back and look at the whole field here. Any number of Aes Sedai have a less than rosy view of the Tower, from Moiraine to Verin to Cadsuane. Yet all these women also love the Tower. Heck, even Nynaeve does. We see in WH that even she was talking about "upholding Aes Sedai dignity".

 

I don't think its very accurate to say Nynaeve loves the White Tower.  Yes, she now has some respect for it, and recognises its potential to do good which she didn't at the beginning of the series, but the majority of her views on it are pretty critical.

 

 

But let's be clear. None of these women would have been able to play their wholly critical roles for the Last Battle but for Egwene. But for Egwene distracting, and later replacing, Elaida, not one of these women would have had as much freedom to do as they did. Or does anyone here want to seriously claim that any Amyrlin but Egwene would have been fine with Nynaeve going to Rand's side of the tent in Merrilor? Do you really see Elaida standing for Moiraine insisting she remember what she Dreamed?

 

I don't think this is something that Egwene can be credited with.  Nynaeve would have been at Rand's side with or without permission.  We saw by the fact that a large part of the Tower rebelled against Elaida that many of the regular Aes Sedai refused to just do whatever Elaida told them to.  Moiraine, Cadsuane, Nynaeve, etc. would have been at the Last Battle even in Elaida had ordered them not to be.

 

I'm not taking anything away from Egwene's major improvements to the White Tower.  Her strength of will and refusal to back down reunited the Tower and brought it to the Last Battle as a major force.  I completely agree that it is bizarre to criticise her for wanting to improve a fallen institution that she had faith could be improved (and to be willing to suffer and sacrifice for her ideals). 

 

It can be difficult to be sympathetic to her goals though, largely because although they are morally very good, the White Tower and Aes Sedai have spent 10+ books being knocked down further and further from the pinnacle they started on.  Because Egwene sees herself as an embodiment of the White Tower as Amyrlin, readers who have become disillusioned with the White Tower aren't inclined to be supportive of someone who sees herself as inseparable from an organisation that has been repeatedly portrayed as self-serving, manipulative, and distant.  Even though Egwene's goals for the WT are noble, she comes across as the embodiment of the WT including all its very prominent current flaws.

 

The WT really does need to earn its right to respect.  Egwene sees in her head the WT as she wants it to be. When in reality she hasn't had anywhere near enough time to implement enough changes, or time for the changes she has made to have wide reaching widely known positive effects.  I think this is why she comes off as arrogant, especially in many of her internal POVs where she sees the WT as the ''steward of the land'', or her as the ''embodiment of the Light''.  Yes, the WT of the AoL and the WT she plans are deserving of this kind of respect.  The current WT however is definitely not.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Rhienne

[Gisli]

I haven't read all the pages of this discussion, but it seems clear to me that, predictably, the discussion on Egwene has veered into a discussion on the Aes Sedai. Because that's what it boils down to, doesn't it? If the Tower had been portrayed as a universally lovable, filled-with-noble-women, self-sacrificing, perfect organization, then Egwene's work for it would have been lauded, and no one would have denied she was doing the right thing.

 

Instead, Egwene got handed the leadership of a divided, flawed, achingly human bunch of women. Yet, we never see her doubt that working for its betterment is a good thing. And the sentiment seems to be... how dare she?

 

I think people need to step back and look at the whole field here. Any number of Aes Sedai have a less than rosy view of the Tower, from Moiraine to Verin to Cadsuane. Yet all these women also love the Tower. Heck, even Nynaeve does. We see in WH that even she was talking about "upholding Aes Sedai dignity". We just don't have as much air-time about these women thinking of the Tower because they're focussed on other tasks.

 

But let's be clear. None of these women would have been able to play their wholly critical roles for the Last Battle but for Egwene. But for Egwene distracting, and later replacing, Elaida, not one of these women would have had as much freedom to do as they did. Or does anyone here want to seriously claim that any Amyrlin but Egwene would have been fine with Nynaeve going to Rand's side of the tent in Merrilor? Do you really see Elaida standing for Moiraine insisting she remember what she Dreamed?

 

But this is the lesser of the reasons to not dislike Egwene's obsession with the Tower. The greater reason is that barring the Dragon Reborn, the Tower was the greatest bulwark against the Shadow. And even the Dragon Reborn wouldn't have had a chance but for them. In the four-front strategy the leaders of the Light command, it is the Tower that dominates the field. It is the Tower that is such a threat to the Shadow that no less than three Foresaken focussed their attentions on it to divide and destroy it. No less a member of the Shadow than Demandred struck at them first, and Demandred's battle in Merrilor would have been a runaway success but for the Tower's heroic battles with the Sharans.

 

When it came down to the end, when the politicking was done (and there wad politicking everywhere but the Borderlands), the Tower banded together, and despite being less skilled in battle than the Sharans, they gave them a battle to remember. Even leaving aside Egwene's final actions, the other Sisters did mighty fine work. They penned up the Sharans by giving up their own lives and their Wader's. And that let Mat deploy whatever other strategy he wanted to in the rest of the battlefield. 

 

And White Tower training and indoctrination has done many bad things. Its made its women stubborn, arrogant, unbending. Its allowed the Black Ajah to exist unquestioned. But it also directly led to hundreds of women with ridiculous amounts of courage standing against impossible odds and refusing to consider surrender. They were professional soldiers as much as those from any of the other armies, but pitted against the toughest foes.

 

Imagine for a minute that Last Battle without the Tower's forces. And that is what they've been preparing for. And that's what Egwene saw them as. A force to be reckoned with, against the Shadow. As they were in the Trolloc Wars, so they were again. 

 

Given how easy it is to detest the Aes Sedai as a whole, its easy to forget how important their unification was. It did not get as much airtime as it did because RJ was trying to make story arcs synchronize (like he did with Elayne's and Perrin's stories). Its there because the fight for the integration for the two halves of the Tower was as important as the fight for the integration of "Lews Therin" and Rand. As hard as the Shadow worked to drive Rand insane, it did as much to destroy the Tower. They had good reason, and but for Egwene, they'd have been the ones throwing the party at Shayol Ghul.

 

 

Overall I more or less agree.

Nevertheless it was a bit annoying for me that the WT got their heroic fight and critical role in the LB, while WOs, Findfinders and Ashaman did practically nothing (and most of them are missing) except some individuals (e.g. Androl who I really dislike). I have nothing against the WT outshining every other "institution". I expected that and it was also logical. But the contrast was too big and unreasonable for my liking.

 

PS. I think you have overestimated Egwene's role here a little bit. Make no mistake I am not saying she wasn't one of the most important character, but I don't think she was the only one who could achieve everyting(!) you wrote. For example Cadsuane etc. could have done their "job" with an other Amyrlin as well.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Gisli

[Vin21]

i am far from an Egwene defender.  while i enjoyed reading her POV's for most of the series, Id be lying if I didnt say that she had me wanting to smack her on more than on occasion.

 

Does she treat the 3 taveren like childrn?  absolutely. But the thing that most of us are conviently forgetting here is that Egwene doesnt have the same information that the rest of us do regarding Rand, Matt and Perrin.  She doesnt know what theyve all gone through internally over the last 2 years.  shes seen matt, what, twice?  She has no idea that he even HAD holes in his memory, much less that they were filled with the thoughts of all of the greatest generals that the world has ever known.

 

Im not saying you cant criticize, just to keep in mind that Egwene doesnt know what we know.

[Gisli]

It can be difficult to be sympathetic to her goals though, largely because although they are morally very good, the White Tower and Aes Sedai have spent 10+ books being knocked down further and further from the pinnacle they started on.  Because Egwene sees herself as an embodiment of the White Tower as Amyrlin, readers who have become disillusioned with the White Tower aren't inclined to be supportive of someone who sees herself as inseparable from an organisation that has been repeatedly portrayed as self-serving, manipulative, and distant.  Even though Egwene's goals for the WT are noble, she comes across as the embodiment of the WT including all its very prominent current flaws.

 

The WT really does need to earn its right to respect.  Egwene sees in her head the WT as she wants it to be. When in reality she hasn't had anywhere near enough time to implement enough changes, or time for the changes she has made to have wide reaching widely known positive effects.  I think this is why she comes off as arrogant, especially in many of her internal POVs where she sees the WT as the ''steward of the land'', or her as the ''embodiment of the Light''.  Yes, the WT of the AoL and the WT she plans are deserving of this kind of respect.  The current WT however is definitely not.

 

I totally agree (except from maybe the WT of the AoL), it is a good conclusion of my view as well.

[meeker]

 

The Black Ajah had existed for centuries. The corruption by the time of Gitara was systemic and institutional, the results of which we saw for 13 novels.

 

If 1/3 were out in the world, 2/3 never left Tar Valon.... Not really a good ratio. Without question, the 33% were out doing all that stuff you rightly cite.....yet over and over we are told the Aes Sedai reasons are not what you think they are"; "don't let an AesSedai tie a string around you"; "manipulating events"; etc......ALLrulers stepped carefully around them, and EVERYONE treated them with the sort of trepidation given to a Mafia member...... This perception/reaction is repeated time after time, in book after book.

 

Wait are you trying to claim Ishy didn't start the BA? They were targeted by the shadow. The BA was started centuries ago by Ishy during one of the intervals that he was loose from the bore. The WT was the premiere power and as such Ishy made it a mission to infiltrate from the inside. AS can not be held accountable for his actions.

 

As for the rest you are looking at it all wrong. That 1/3 rotates in and out, virtually every sisters room we see has mementos from a long life lived out working in the world. It is not solely the same 1/3 out working. You are taking  the rest of those things far too literally, much of that is merely rumors and the like. Certain countries do view them with trepidation while in others they are openly welcomed and treated far differently.

 

The issue is that the White Tower created a culture that produced people inclined to turn to the shadow.  Sure they may have been targeted by Ishy but he was not lose 100% of the time.  Seems that it took barely any effort to start and was quickly self-sufficient.  Even when IShy was not directly involved Sisters turned to the shadow at an astronomically higher rate than the general population.  Black and Light sisters had completely opposing end goals in day to day matters they were pretty indistinguishable.

 

The Black sisters are able to constantly initiate plans, like kidnapping Rand, that the light sisters wholeheartedly buy into.  The White tower breeds into all its members a supreme arrogance and belief that they are better than anyone else.  They are not special because they can channel, they can channel because they are special.  This attitude, that was created by the Light sisters, created the perfect recruiting ground for the dark.

[Agitel]

The Aes Sedai do have a claim to fame aside from channeling as an institution. They were the first group to pull back together after the Breaking. They are the one's who have preserved what history they can, and were probably the first to start redeveloping technology (such as printing presses). Civilization recovered as well as it did because of the White Tower. They've also been a major mediator and negotiator between the nations of the westlands for thousands of years; their influence has only just recently waned. Should Aes Sedai today be proud of that legacy? Some certainly take it too far, but they don't feel special because they can channel, they feel special because they identify with the institution, for their high education and for their training.

[Suttree]

@Meeker

 

There is no inclination to the shadow. No other group was targeted like that and the BA structure really was ingenious. It certainly wasn't totally self sufficient as we know Ishy ran things at every interval he was spun out. As I've said a number of times in this thread however the WT could have done a better job facing the reality of the situation(although Cadsuane almost rooted them out, she calls it her most bitter failure) regardless AS can't be held accountable for one of Ishy's master plans.

[megalomax]

The Aes Sedai do have a claim to fame aside from channeling as an institution. They were the first group to pull back together after the Breaking. They are the one's who have preserved what history they can, and were probably the first to start redeveloping technology (such as printing presses). Civilization recovered as well as it did because of the White Tower. They've also been a major mediator and negotiator between the nations of the westlands for thousands of years; their influence has only just recently waned. Should Aes Sedai today be proud of that legacy? Some certainly take it too far, but they don't feel special because they can channel, they feel special because they identify with the institution, for their high education and for their training.

they lost contact with the people. I think Egwene knew that for people to trust AS they have to return to the time AS did serve the people. At least Elayne did when she wanted free healing and gates for everybody.

 

I found it annoying that the WT became so swellheaded that they would withold their healing from the sick and that refusal to use the one power for everyday use resulted to their lost talents, diminished power and made AS weaker compared to the likes of Forsaken and even the kin like Sumeko and that kin with her spirit shield that could theoretically hold a forsaken, or sea Folk wind mastery and aiel WO dreaming (and other stuff)

 

Egwene wanted the training of the kin that use healing always, the Aiel WO that also use the OP for the clan and the sea Folk that use the OP when sailing.

 

You don't see the sea Folk and Aiel distrusting their channelers something that the WT has failed.

[Suttree]

 

The Aes Sedai do have a claim to fame aside from channeling as an institution. They were the first group to pull back together after the Breaking. They are the one's who have preserved what history they can, and were probably the first to start redeveloping technology (such as printing presses). Civilization recovered as well as it did because of the White Tower. They've also been a major mediator and negotiator between the nations of the westlands for thousands of years; their influence has only just recently waned. Should Aes Sedai today be proud of that legacy? Some certainly take it too far, but they don't feel special because they can channel, they feel special because they identify with the institution, for their high education and for their training.

they lost contact with the people. I think Egwene knew that for people to trust AS they have to return to the time AS did serve the people. At least Elayne did when she wanted free healing and gates for everybody.

 

I found it annoying that the WT became so swellheaded that they would withold their healing from the sick and that refusal to use the one power for everyday use resulted to their lost talents, diminished power and made AS weaker compared to the likes of Forsaken and even the kin like Sumeko and that kin with her spirit shield that could theoretically hold a forsaken, or sea Folk wind mastery and aiel WO dreaming (and other stuff)

That isn't true mega. The Yellow's use their eyes and ears network to search out outbreaks of disease and the like and anyone is welcome to come to TV for free healing. As for talents that has nothing to do with refusal to use OP for every day use(which btw isn't true either). The two are totally unrelated.

 

Although they truly are not "servants of all" they certainly are out in the world working so saying they have lost contact with the people is false as well. As stated at any given time a 1/3 of the WT is out doing specifically that.

[shaiel]

Reading this book, I remembered that I don't particularly like Egwene. More like the other way around. I had honestly forgot about it - or, probably, it was reading Leight Butler's reread that made me forget about it - but I ended up being really disappointed by Egwene's attitude in this book. The last WOT books I had reread before AMOL were Path of Daggers and Lord of Chaos, and I absolutely adored Egwene there, how she was clever and smarter than half of the Hall put together. Then, well, we're back to the I-know-better-than-you version of the character and I really disliked that. At first I thought it was Sanderson not getting the characterization right (for example, Egwene's dealings with/ thought about Mat in chapters 26 and 31 seem to contraddict her arc in Lord of Chaos almost point by point) until I checked out book 10 and realized that the problem is the character itself, rather than the writer. I'm kind of disappointed, and kind of glad that was seh who died instead of one of the others major characters. 
Just a big Boh. 

[megalomax]

 

 

 

The Aes Sedai do have a claim to fame aside from channeling as an institution. They were the first group to pull back together after the Breaking. They are the one's who have preserved what history they can, and were probably the first to start redeveloping technology (such as printing presses). Civilization recovered as well as it did because of the White Tower. They've also been a major mediator and negotiator between the nations of the westlands for thousands of years; their influence has only just recently waned. Should Aes Sedai today be proud of that legacy? Some certainly take it too far, but they don't feel special because they can channel, they feel special because they identify with the institution, for their high education and for their training.

they lost contact with the people. I think Egwene knew that for people to trust AS they have to return to the time AS did serve the people. At least Elayne did when she wanted free healing and gates for everybody.

 

I found it annoying that the WT became so swellheaded that they would withold their healing from the sick and that refusal to use the one power for everyday use resulted to their lost talents, diminished power and made AS weaker compared to the likes of Forsaken and even the kin like Sumeko and that kin with her spirit shield that could theoretically hold a forsaken, or sea Folk wind mastery and aiel WO dreaming (and other stuff)

That isn't true mega. The Yellow's use their eyes and ears network to search out outbreaks of disease and the like and anyone is welcome to come to TV for free healing. As for talents that has nothing to do with refusal to use OP for every day use(which btw isn't true either). The two are totally unrelated.

 

Although they truly are not "servants of all" they certainly are out in the world working so saying they have lost contact with the people is false as well. As stated at any given time a 1/3 of the WT is out doing specifically that.

I think during the time Mat got sick they expressed that they only heal the very sick and that Mat was lucky they had time to heal him. I don't mean lost contact as no communication at all. I meant the AS use the OP only if they can gain something such as their help with rulers in exchange of the game of houses. Look at the level of distrust the people have of AS even with the 3 oaths, even Egwene experienced it. And AS treated themselves like nobles only talking mostly to rulers and nobles.

 

The sea folk and aiel female channelers on the other hand were revered by their people even without the oaths.i think that was Egwene's goal when she made the agreements.

 

As for talent and strength Logain and Taim had the ashaman use the one power in doing chores and exercises. They developed faster than the AS, learning healing at a very short time. I know males grow in spurts and females as steady as they aged but the WT had old AS.

 

Meanwhile, I think BS forgot about the oath rod and what Egwene knew about it. The rod or binder reduces life span depending on the number of oaths you make (or type of rod).

[Suttree]

I think during the time Mat got sick they expressed that they only heal the very sick and that Mat was lucky they had time to heal him.

Once again this isn't true and that was never said when Mat was being healed. As I said sisters use their eyes and ears network to search out problems and go heal them and everyone gets free healing at the WT. Hospitals in major cities of course would be far more effective however.

 

I don't mean lost contact as no communication at all. I meant the AS use the OP only if they can gain something such as their help with rulers in exchange of the game of houses. Look at the level of distrust the people have of AS even with the 3 oaths, even Egwene experienced it. And AS treated themselves like nobles only talking mostly to rulers and nobles.

Some AS focus on nobles and rulers. As advisors that is a crucial part of what they do. Regardless there are just as many if not more out working in the general populace.

TGS

Each had a small plaque explaining its significance. The marriage knife, for instance, had been presented to Meidani for her help in settling a dispute between two houses over the death of a particularly important landowner. His wife had given her the knife as a token of thanks.

 

Who would have thought that the cowering woman of the dinner a few weeks back would have such a proud collection? The rug itself was labeled, the gift of a trader who had purchased it on the closed docks of Shara, then bestowed it on Meidani in thanks for Healing his daughter.

We know they patrol the blight, we know they mediate disputes, we see parties of them criss crossing the world throughout the series distinctly separate from the groups we see working as advisors.

As for talent and strength Logain and Taim had the ashaman use the one power in doing chores and exercises. They developed faster than the AS, learning healing at a very short time. I know males grow in spurts and females as steady as they aged but the WT had old AS.

They also were killed at a astronomically higher rate during training. They only learned like that when they thought they were solely weapons and had no future due to the taint. Post cleansing and the lesson Cadsuane taught them here is of course a middle point between the AS and Ashaman way. That is merely for accepted and novices however, we know AS use the OP for everyday use.

[esvath]

The problem with Aes Sedai (and White Tower) is their basic thinking, that in order to guide and protect humanity, they need to be separated, above humanity. This, in time, make the Aes Sedai deviates from their noble goal and put the 'image of White Tower and Aes Sedai' as the first and foremost goal. This is exactly what Nynaeve thought after her test for the shawl, and Egwene agreed with her evaluation.

 

The Wise Ones, on the other hand, live with their community. They are leading the Aiel by being an integral part of Aiel. The hierarchy of Wise Ones is not determined by the strength of Power, so it is open to promotion by merit.

 

The Windfinders also live with their community, but imho their position is more restricted than Wise Ones (or even the Aes Sedai). The Windfinders's status is not determined by their own merit, but by their Sailmistress's achievement.

Edited January 21, 2013 by esvath

[Suttree]

Good point esvath. I think the "channeler exchange" reform that Egwene enacted will go a huge way towards moving them in the right direction on that count. Having accepted ingrained within those cultures and serving that role day in and day out will do more than anything else I can think of to change that thinking in a positive way.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Suttree

[PhoenixUK]

Egwene was neither my favourite character nor one I hated. She had rather a difficult relationship with Nynaeve, trying to learn how to deal with her now that htey were both theoretically equals (as Accepted). Then she became Amyrlin. I did like their relationship in TOM when Nynaeve undergoes the test for Aes Sedai and Nynaeve openly admits she would rather leave the white tower than carry on with their obtuse system. 

 

She was quite childish in books 1-3 but so were the others, and they were children still. You can see that her time as an apprentice with the wise ones matured her. Someone mentioned that she lied about being aes sedai to the wise ones for ages and this shows her arrogance. That is possibly true, but i think she was just afraid that the wise ones would otherwise leave her out of things, and at that time she was desperate to learn as much as possible to help Rand and later to help the forces of the Light in general. Perhaps it was arrogance on her part but in any case the events showed she WAS essential. If she hadnt pushed ahead faster than the Wise Ones wanted, would she have been ready in time to fight Mesaana in telaranrhiod?

 

She did a v impressive job in outmaneuvering the rebel aes sedai and getting them moving against Elaida when all they wanted to really do was just sit there. I think someone mentioned that she was power hungry and should have just surrendered to Elaida ASAP to unite the tower, but Elaida was remarkably stupid (sadly she became increasingly stupid and pathetic, all too easy to show up as an idiot who didnt deserve to rule, whereas she started off as someone with potentially rather good reasons for getting rid of Suian) and also under blackmail from Alviarin and the black ajah. (Its a shame that alviarin gets one quick mention and no more in AMOL). Yes she did lie and connive and bend the rules, but if you see how stupid and pig headed the rebels were, it was justified. Keeping Moghedien captive, was possibly not. In the end, i dont think Moghedien did all that much damage when she was rescued - in fact she did some good when she attacked Nynaeve with balefire, she forced nynaeve to break her mental block to channelling. But it could have been worse.

 

The way she rallied the white tower against the seanchan attack was AWESOME. Even better was the way she used Verin's sacrifice and broke the Black Ajah, defeated Mesaana, and reunited the Tower in humility.

 

Egwene was v good at learning from everyone - nynaeve, her father, moiraine, wise ones. She was good at creating alliances - with the wise ones and Windfinders. I agree it was v annoying how she treated Mat, saying she would rescue him, and rolling her eyes at his suggestions. 

 

I am not entirely sure why she married gawyn in the end. They were v different people by the time they were reunited. She was v dismissive of him. Maybe she was overly emotional about the way he nearly died saving her. Fine, bond him but marrying him? They didnt seem to go together. I was glad that elayne and gawyn had that chat where elayne forced gawyn to realise he was basically an idiot. As for his decision to attack demandred, he really SHOULD have told egwene. He knows v well the effect that his death would have on her via the bond, let alone her normal emotional attachment to her husband. She is a lynchpin in the alliance to fight the shadow, so distracting her with his death was v foolish. As others have said, it was worth trying to attack demandred. Gawyn thought he had a chance with the seanchan terangreal, and it was worth taking the risk. Demandred was clearly the general in charge and his circle was doing devestating damage to Light army and to the Pattern itself. Even if he didnt kill him, at least gawyn distracted him and potentially bought the Light army a bit more time. 

 

I wasnt entirely satisfied with the fulfillment of Egwene and the seanchan woman helping her = leilwin . Did leilwin even do all that much to help egwene?

 

As for egwene death, i was disappointed. Maybe its true, she was so overblown as a legend (v strong, re united the tower, brought in so many new recruits, reformed many bad Tower traditions, first Dreamer in the tower in years, friend of Dragon, rediscovered cuendillar and travelling, defeated mesaana and Black ajah, saved Tower from seanchan attack) that she kinda had to die. I just didnt think Mhael was the right opponent. True, she is leader of unified White Tower and he is leader of corrupted Black Tower but it felt like there should have been a Mhael Taim vs Logain battle. 

 

The whole Flame of Tar valon thing felt pretty silly too. The idea of cuendillar was a good one, that would have made more sense than this weird new weave that she learns at the last second. At least when she figured out how to enter telaranrhiod in the flesh, she did it after thinking about it a long time and she figured out travelling via moghedien's description. Although nynaeve figured out balefire randomly so they all seem to do it. It just felt badly written though. 

 

I also do not believe that RJ would have left the fate of a major character like egwene up in the air, Sanderson must have had some idea that at the minimum she had to die.

[megalomax]

The problem with Aes Sedai (and White Tower) is their basic thinking, that in order to guide and protect humanity, they need to be separated, above humanity. This, in time, make the Aes Sedai deviates from their noble goal and put the 'image of White Tower and Aes Sedai' as the first and foremost goal. This is exactly what Nynaeve thought after her test for the shawl, and Egwene agreed with her evaluation.

 

The Wise Ones, on the other hand, live with their community. They are leading the Aiel by being an integral part of Aiel. The hierarchy of Wise Ones is not determined by the strength of Power, so it is open to promotion by merit.

 

The Windfinders also live with their community, but imho their position is more restricted than Wise Ones (or even the Aes Sedai). The Windfinders's status is not determined by their own merit, but by their Sailmistress's achievement.

Those were the points I was Trying to make at least the other channelers lived with the people and tend to use the OP for daily use unlike the AS that have strict edicts of only using the OP when needed.

 

As for the Yellow's, do remember that in the age of legends healing was fine using all weaves. I find it impossible that the type of healing would be lost and the AS have been using only wind water and spirit, something the forsaken laughed at because it was a battle emergency type of weaving, weak and dangerous but useful on the field.

 

Even Moggy called Chesmal's healing as minor talent even though the AS regarded her as a talented healer using a type of healing Nynaeve does. Even with chesmal having lived in the tower long enough the AS still use a weak form of healing, preferring to stick to tradition and not even bothering to really USE the OP for anything else. Evidence is when Nynaeve got scolded after healing Logain, Magla exclaimed that healing was water wind and spirit. It was then the AS started speculating on on using "fire for problems for the heart" and I think it was Siuan again that said that the Yellow's took what Nynaeve did and started making marvels.

 

I think it was also siuan or elaida who scoffed at the eyes and ears of the yellow because there weren't any disease that couldn't be healed but the healing the AS do was basic. Which often times killed the patient. Unlike sumeko and Nynaeve' s healing. They couldn't heal mind problems because they kept on using wind water and spirit unlike Nynaeve.

 

I just think that was the failure of the AS, they placed themselves above the people that they stopped innovating things.

 

Take for example construction, they still use stone masons and stuff in building Elaida's mansion. In age of legends the AS use OP and they managed to make great structures.

 

That's why I think one of Egwene's great achievements was to break traditions in the WT such as the exchange students, no more over zealous capturing of girls with talents and Egwene could have done more instead she died sadly.