Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[jack of shadows]

@bfg, @raggamuffin swagger,

"regarding alivia,i think she must have been told what to do offscreen".

i came(belatedly)to the same conclusion myself,alivia must have been told about

the body swap offscreen,but who told her? here is a small list of impossibilities,

unlikelies and maybes:

1.moiraine.the one person i am absolutely sure knew nothing about the body swap.

she and alivia were practically strangers,furthermore,moiraine and thom were part

of the crowd around moridin's bier,holding hands and looking solemn.grade=impossible.

2.elayne.was not present when rand got out of the pit of doom.on arrival,was always

surrounded by people and couldn't say anything to alivia privately.grade=unlikely.

3.min.same as elayne.additionally,min never fully trusted alivia.grade=highly unlikely.

4.aviendha.wounded in the last battle and was tended in a different sickbay tent than rand,

like elayne,was never alone and couldn't say anything to alivia.grade=unlikely.

5.alivia.no one had to tell her about the body swap because she was the unnamed old woman

with gray hair wearing aiel clothing outside the pit of doom.(and not one word about nakomi)

grade=maybe.

6.nynaeve.it is clearly evident that she knew nothing about the body swap,not until "rand"'s death

anyway.tried to intimidate aviendha for answers and got a very strange response:"let us prepare

his pyre".more about nynaeve next time.

the last name on my list is of course rand.more about him next time.

 

on a side note,one thing did strike me as ironic,the girls plan to hide the fact that rand was alive

backfired when they intentionally avoided the sickbay tent,their absence from rand's side was very

conspicuous.

[jack of shadows]

alivia,rand and the body swap.

when min figured out(offscreen)that callandor is a true power sa'angreal,it did give rand the ability

to solve his most imperative need, i.e. seal the bore/kill the dark one and leave saidin clean,and to

achieve this goal,rand had to make sure moridin would show up in shayol ghul.

initially,rand's attitude towards moridin(in a memory of light)puzzled me,it was a strange melange of

politeness and total disregard.later i understood that part of rand's disdain was an act,a calculated

attempt to provoke moridin into a specific course of action,"tell him i've tired of minions,that i'm

finished with his petty movement of pawns.tell him that i'm coming for him".(poor moridin,relegated

from nae'blis to pawn).luckily,all the taunting and belittling did work,and moridin was waiting exactly

where he was supposed to wait(apparently,not everyone was a stark raving idiot like demandred).

when rand decided to put his escape plan in motion and talk to alivia,he already knew three important

facts:

1.moridin will be waiting in shayol ghul.

2.both of them shared a strange physical bond.

3.his plan for sealing the bore/killing the dark one was fully developed.

i could envision rand manipulating,trapping and using moridin as a true power human conduit for the sake of the world,but could he go even further and plan something so brutal and so ruthless as a body

swap for his own self interest?

i honestly don't know. months ago,i wrote in this thread that rand forced the body swap,because right at the end,moridin was completely comatose,and rand took control of the situation and forced the exchange.

these days,i am not so sure anymore.

 

by the way,we have had an offscreen conversation between rand and alivia,an offscreen discovery from

min,an offscreen reunion between moiraine and siuan,an offscreen body swap between rand and moridin,

so why not an offscreen bonding between rand and alivia?(this could solve everything).

[iceknight27377]

(Balefires Jak)

[thehoovedone1]

Firstly I did not read the whole thread its huge but this is my view on the whole why rand didnt kill the dark one and all that.

 

Firstly I think the overal idea and one that rand realises right at the end is that the dark one can not win, (it is imposible for the world to be destroyed. rand states this and we see it with the whole devine intervention from LTT on dragon mount)

 

Secondly it is imposible for the dark one to be destroyed. (the dragon will ALWAYS make the desision to seal away and not kill the dark one)

 

what rand realsises is that this cycle is essentialy a staging ground for all the other wonders and lives that take place around it. Thats why at the end he just wants to leave and explore the world. The patten must and always will fight the DO but while they do other stuff happens other lives happen and that is what rand realises.

[jack of shadows]

@thehoovedone1,

"it is impossible for the dark one to be destroyed".

according to rand,killing the dark one was feasible:"standing in a column of light,rand pulled

the dark one into the pattern.only here was there time.only here could the shadow itself be killed".

a little later,rand changed his mind and reversed his course of action:"rand yelled thrusting the

dark one through the pit from where it had come".

and then he sealed the bore.

leaving the question of rand's decision aside,rand didn't kill the dark one because(in his opinion)

it was wrong,not because he was unable to do it.

[Suttree]

Firstly I think the overal idea and one that rand realises right at the end is that the dark one can not win,

 

Interview: Nov 1st, 1998

SciFi.com Chat (Verbatim)

Rothaar

When Rand takes Verin and the others through a Portal Stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

Robert Jordan

There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.

we see it with the whole devine intervention from LTT on dragon mount)

Can you clarify what you mean by this? Are you referring to Rand gaining access to all his past life memories?

[thehoovedone1]

In relply to jack of shadows and Suttree

 

I my opinon.  The reason Rand canot win (kill the dark one for good) is not due to the fact that he does not have enough power (physicly canot do it) but because he will not do it. the dragon will always realsies the need for balence before he kills the dark one and so will trap him instead.

 

In a similar situation rand canot destoy the world with balfire as he will always realise that he should give it another go so to speek before he releases the destruction

 

once again in a similar situation the only way the dark one can win is if the race of humans (wolfs Oger and others) give up and stop fighting. this is not posable as rand says the more the dark one trys to crush the them the harder they resist. (rand talk about lan as an example)

 

I hope this clarifys my Idea

[InfinLuminous]

You know, if it is true that each time the Dragon has the opportunity to kill the DO but decided not to in order to maintain balance, then I have to believe that the DO realizes this. And if the DO does realize this, he certainly talks a big game with Rand, even knowing that he continuously fails in his attempts to break free. Deep down, the DO must be incredibly frustrated and feel kind of silly trash-talking the Dragon during each turning of the Wheel.

[Ipavaiva]

You know, if it is true that each time the Dragon has the opportunity to kill the DO but decided not to in order to maintain balance, then I have to believe that the DO realizes this. And if the DO does realize this, he certainly talks a big game with Rand, even knowing that he continuously fails in his attempts to break free. Deep down, the DO must be incredibly frustrated and feel kind of silly trash-talking the Dragon during each turning of the Wheel.

As I had predicted almost from the beginning, and as Rand realized at the end, DO is not a being but a power, so even it seems to be talking to Rand, it may very well be that there is only Rand's good and bad sides - because there is good and bad in everywhere and in every one of us - fighting against each other. Only, the bad side is feed straight from the DO and it first gets a big advantage. Later, how ever, Rand's good side which is stronger take's the upper hand.

But, the most important part:  Ultimately, the sides balance out themselves, and seal the DO away. That way both, essence of good and evil can affect the world equally. Rand could have destroyed that CAPS VOICE for ever by killing - or rather destroying - the DO essence, but in a progress that CAPS VOICE, being part of him would have been destroyed. Possibly destroying or at least damaging Rand.

 

Other possibility for the voices origin might "be" Moridin although I find it highly unlikely. Moridin, being dedicated to DO, is used as a "vessel" and DO using Moridin's mind as a chart is able to bring his position clear to Rand. DO is so different from anything living creature, that it can't comprehend them without using one of them as kind of "mindchart". This theory popped to my mind because Moridin was frozen, just like Rand when he hit the Bore, but Moridin didn't show up in the darkness.

I also know that this theory barely fits into this thread anymore... I also know it's really hard to understand but frankly I can't explain it much better :(. Wanted to bring it out anyways alongside the first theory which I think is more believable.

[jack of shadows]

@infinluminous,

"deep down,the do must be incredibly frustrated..."

if the dark one is feeling frustrated from the endless repetition of "last battles"

against the dragon,what about elan morin tedronai's frustrations?

the guy is eternally seeking oblivion,only to be denied again and again and again.

look at his last encounter with the dragon,rand manipulated him,trapped him with

callandor,used him brutally as a true power human conduit(effectively blocking the

dark one's ability to taint saidin again) and to add insult to injury,after sealing the bore

rand took his body!!

i almost felt sorry for the poor bastard.

at least this time he was cremated with full honors as the dragon reborn.

[InfinLuminous]

It's unclear how much Elan remembers from the past turning of the Wheel. He claims to have knowledge in the early books, but his musings in The Path of Daggers suggest that he does not remember the details.

[jack of shadows]

@thehoovedone1,

you know,before i started to read a memory of light,i was absolutely sure that rand is going

to kill the dark one and this last battle is going to be the final one.

with hindsight,knowing the outcome of the last battle and finally fully understanding the cyclical

nature of the wheel of time,scenarios like 'rand is going to destroy the shadow' or 'the dark one's victory

is going to be a decisive one this time' were never meant to happen,robert jordan never intended to make

this third age any special,although the outcome of this last battle is better than lews therin's actions(dragon

peace,saidin is clean,etc) rand's last battle is just a phase in the endless turning of the wheel.

so in a way(a very convoluted way-lol) i agree with you.

 

by the way,there was no divine intervention from lews therin on top of dragonmount,rand and lews therin

are one and the same,lews therin's memories and knowledge were always inside rand's head.

[InfinLuminous]

If the Dragon was defeated or "broke bad" in previous turnings of the Wheel as Jordan suggests in Suttree's quote above, this would mean that someone else (or a group of people) would need to stop the DO from breaking free in those turnings, since we know the DO has never broken free. If that is the case, then is the Dragon really even necessary? The more I've thought about the mythology of the series and Jordan's quotes, the more I think that Jordan really had clear idea of the details of the mythology.

[damandred]

Im not really convinced rand has turned in previous turnings, RJ was pretty ambiguous in his answer about that. I think the message at the end of the last battle is that the DO' goal is not to drestroy the world or rule it but to break the human spirit, to beat them down so much that they give up or beg for oblivion. Thats what he tries to do to rand, and rands job is to keep on fighting.

I see it as, if he breaks Rand then he breaks by exstension the whole of humanity, as rand is the human races champion. So by that reasoning rand has never been turned in his Al'thor incarnation when he has to fight the decisive battle, but i think it possible he has been turned as LTT and someone else has patched the bore up.

 

 

 

Edit. I also think the reason the DO keeps trying is its his nature he has to keep trying to break rand he cant stop. Though maybe he should tell moridin to stay at home next time.

[Suttree]

Im not really convinced rand has turned in previous turnings, RJ was pretty ambiguous in his answer about that.

 

He wasn't though. RJ answered straight out that Ishy wasn't lying when he told Rand "you" have served me in past turnings. He wasn't just referring to some generic CoL, it was Rand's soul specifically.

[damandred]

 

 

Im not really convinced rand has turned in previous turnings, RJ was pretty ambiguous in his answer about that.

He wasn't though. RJ answered straight out that Ishy wasn't lying when he told Rand "you" have served me in past turnings. He wasn't just referring to some generic CoL, it was Rand's soul specifically.

I remember one when he gave a AS answer, something like " do you believe ishamael". Though if you say he stated flat out that ishy was telling the truth then i'll take your word for it. Though would like to see the quote.

 

As the dragon soul has been turned, i still dont think the Rand/third age carnation has ever been turned as all prophersy states in that age that only he can defeat the DO, so if he turns the DO wins final victory. Were as a LTT/second age turning would only be a limited victory and not even for that long as he would still get trapped in the bore and LTT would still be reborn to face him in the third age.

 

Which brings me to a question. How do souls escape the DO to be reborn after swearing to him, as the way i have read in the books once you swear ( double for a channler ) he has you soul forever?

[jack of shadows]

@suttree,

maybe rand served elan morin in past turnings,

BUT-NOT-THIS-TIME,this time rand did give elan morin's nihilistic arse a damn good thrashing.lol.

[Suttree]

Though would like to see the quote.

 

Interview: Feb 26th, 2003

tarvalon.net Q&A (Verbatim)

Question

Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to the Shadow in other lifetimes?

Robert Jordan

No he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

Rand is the dragon soul/champion of the light and that was specifically in reference to Ishy telling Rand "you" have served him before.

 

Interview: Jan 16th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tim Kington (Paraphrased)

Question

(inaudible)

Robert Jordan

Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

 

@suttree,

maybe rand served elan morin in past turnings,

BUT-NOT-THIS-TIME,this time rand did give elan morin's nihilistic arse a damn good thrashing.lol.

 

[InfinLuminous]

I find Jordan's quotes very troubling. If the Dragon has gone over to the Shadow before (and thus the Shadow claims a "lesser" victory but not a complete victory), then that means someone had to stop both the Dark One AND the turned-Dragon to avoid the Dark One breaking free completely. If that is the case, then the Dragon almost seems superfluous in the grand scheme of things. The Dragon is obviously not the only person capable of preventing the Dark One from breaking free and sealing him away again. Someone (or a group of people) is capable of not only re-sealing the DO, but defeating an evil Dragon while doing it!! Jordan's quotes render the Dragon/CoL almost meaningless.

[mbuehner]

I find Jordan's quotes very troubling. If the Dragon has gone over to the Shadow before (and thus the Shadow claims a "lesser" victory but not a complete victory), then that means someone had to stop both the Dark One AND the turned-Dragon to avoid the Dark One breaking free completely. If that is the case, then the Dragon almost seems superfluous in the grand scheme of things. The Dragon is obviously not the only person capable of preventing the Dark One from breaking free and sealing him away again. Someone (or a group of people) is capable of not only re-sealing the DO, but defeating an evil Dragon while doing it!! Jordan's quotes render the Dragon/CoL almost meaningless.

 

To me, this indicates there must be a fail-safe spinnable out by the pattern.  Now the prophecy says the Dragon will stop the DO, and the Dragon is the same soul, always. So to square this circle, I suggest that the 'Dark Dragon' would have to be killed, and the Dragon Soul spun back out (perhaps even in a different age), so that he can ultimate defeat the DO in that turning of the wheel. Wasn't there a suggestion that there have been entire ages ruled by the DO? 

 

I mentioned in the Nakomi thread that Team Jordan has always been very nuanced, even at times perhaps contradictory in the way they talk about Dragon Soul and Champion of the Light. I'd say there's a possibility that this is a result of us asking slightly the wrong questions. Yes, the Dragon is the Champion of the Light always, always male, always the same soul (though not always 'Rand Al Thor' or LTT).  But that doesn't exclude other extraordinary possibilities that the wheel might be able to spin out if the pattern flies far enough off kilter, perhaps even far more interesting than the usual Heroes of the Horn.  Perhaps Nakomi is that 'fail-safe' that would be there to put a stop to a Dark Dragon. Or perhaps not, and its something beyond what we've been shown. But it seems to me that given everything we've been told, the DO always loses, and the Dragon always ultimately defeats him, there must be other possibilities to bring the pattern back into focus if the one we saw in this age went wrong.

 

I was also thinking about the question of killing the DO. I think that ends up being the only way the DO wins. If Rand either destroys creation with the CK, or squishes the DO to death with Callandor creating a world devoid of free will, which is slavery. That explains the DOs motivations, everything he does is aimed at pissing the Dragon off enough or causing him enough despair that he will kill him. Everything else on earth is a pawn to that goal, so who lives and dies, is victorious or defeated, is all irrelevant ultimately. As long as Rand suffers enough.

[damandred]

I find Jordan's quotes very troubling. If the Dragon has gone over to the Shadow before (and thus the Shadow claims a "lesser" victory but not a complete victory), then that means someone had to stop both the Dark One AND the turned-Dragon to avoid the Dark One breaking free completely. If that is the case, then the Dragon almost seems superfluous in the grand scheme of things. The Dragon is obviously not the only person capable of preventing the Dark One from breaking free and sealing him away again. Someone (or a group of people) is capable of not only re-sealing the DO, but defeating an evil Dragon while doing it!! Jordan's quotes render the Dragon/CoL almost meaningless.

This is a problem i also have. Thats why i maintain that the Rand/third age dragon has never been turned and Isamael/RJ had to of been refering to a LTT/AoL dragon as that one isnt so vital. Were someone else could patch up the bore, only the DR can forge it anew.

That would solve the problem for me, but leaves more questions like, how do souls who have gone over to the DO escape to be reborn.

 

I'll ask that question in the simple answers thread.

[Suttree]

That would solve the problem for me, but leaves more questions like, how do souls who have gone over to the DO escape to be reborn.

 

IMO just as balefire isn't the eternal death of the soul, making the wrong decision in one lifetime does not damn you for eternity.

[thehoovedone1]

Correct me if i spin off the path of logic here

 

The wheel is cyclic in other words the ages keep repeating just slightly differently each time

This age is somewhere in this infinite loop

It is almost certain that about half of infinity ages went before this particular story.

For all intents and purposes half of infinity is infinity (1/0)=(0.5/0)

So if it was possible for either side to win and so stop the repeating it would have happened already.

So it is logical to conclude that neither side can win

[Barid Bel Medar]

Correct me if i spin off the path of logic here

 

The wheel is cyclic in other words the ages keep repeating just slightly differently each time

This age is somewhere in this infinite loop

It is almost certain that about half of infinity ages went before this particular story.

For all intents and purposes half of infinity is infinity (1/0)=(0.5/0)

So if it was possible for either side to win and so stop the repeating it would have happened already.

So it is logical to conclude that neither side can win

 

Yes, that makes sense. 

 

I think it's tricky when we are talking about the Wheel and DO possibly winning. 

 

RJ has said as mentioned that the DO CAN win. However, that need not be at odds with the conclusion that neither can fully win. 

 

Sounds crazy right? I'll try to explain, if I don't do a very good job, apologies in advance. 

 

I believe (apart from the obvious reasons why he didn't say the DO can't win before the series had ended) RJ could possibly have given an AS answer here, which he is known for doing. 

 

The question is basically, can the DO win? 

 

Technically, it is possible. The DO does have the power to destroy the Pattern and do whatever it is he wants. If things were to go his way, the threats wouldn't be empty, and the wheel would be unmade. 

 

At the same time, the nature of humanity and the DO prevents this from happening. So while the technical possibility is there if the right circumstances are achieved, it is not possible for those circumstances to come about. 

 

That's if we take Rand at his word when he believes the DO can never win. His whole reasoning behind the belief that the DO can't win is that he will never make humanity submit, and there will always be hope. This is at a point where he has just come out of a really dark phase and is all Jesus Rand, so he would believe that humans could never give up naturally. That's not to say it's a total impossibility. I mean, the likelihood of it happening is very very very very small - hence Rand's belief - but when we are talking about infinite turnings and infinite possibilities, it becomes possible enough. 

 

That's getting a bit too far into unknown territory. Anyhow, I essentially agree that neither Light nor Shadow can totally prevail. However, just as Rand had the opportunity to kill the DO forever, the DO also has the chance to win, but it won't happen because the Pattern (or whatever other forces may come into play) demands balance. 

[mbuehner]

 

Correct me if i spin off the path of logic here

 

The wheel is cyclic in other words the ages keep repeating just slightly differently each time

This age is somewhere in this infinite loop

It is almost certain that about half of infinity ages went before this particular story.

For all intents and purposes half of infinity is infinity (1/0)=(0.5/0)

So if it was possible for either side to win and so stop the repeating it would have happened already.

So it is logical to conclude that neither side can win

 

Yes, that makes sense. 

 

I think it's tricky when we are talking about the Wheel and DO possibly winning. 

 

RJ has said as mentioned that the DO CAN win. However, that need not be at odds with the conclusion that neither can fully win. 

 

Sounds crazy right? I'll try to explain, if I don't do a very good job, apologies in advance. 

 

I believe (apart from the obvious reasons why he didn't say the DO can't win before the series had ended) RJ could possibly have given an AS answer here, which he is known for doing. 

 

The question is basically, can the DO win? 

 

Technically, it is possible. The DO does have the power to destroy the Pattern and do whatever it is he wants. If things were to go his way, the threats wouldn't be empty, and the wheel would be unmade. 

 

At the same time, the nature of humanity and the DO prevents this from happening. So while the technical possibility is there if the right circumstances are achieved, it is not possible for those circumstances to come about. 

 

That's if we take Rand at his word when he believes the DO can never win. His whole reasoning behind the belief that the DO can't win is that he will never make humanity submit, and there will always be hope. This is at a point where he has just come out of a really dark phase and is all Jesus Rand, so he would believe that humans could never give up naturally. That's not to say it's a total impossibility. I mean, the likelihood of it happening is very very very very small - hence Rand's belief - but when we are talking about infinite turnings and infinite possibilities, it becomes possible enough. 

 

That's getting a bit too far into unknown territory. Anyhow, I essentially agree that neither Light nor Shadow can totally prevail. However, just as Rand had the opportunity to kill the DO forever, the DO also has the chance to win, but it won't happen because the Pattern (or whatever other forces may come into play) demands balance. 

 

 

Good stuff here. One possible way out is that perhaps something 'new' like Fain could potentially be enough of a wild card to flip the apple cart. If Fain had a better ending, his uniqueness could have been better explored.