Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[jack of shadows]

@jedman67,

breakfast at milliways?

rand's done enough throughout the wheel of time story to merit a full andoran breakfast

at the winespring inn,no need to send him to the end of the universe.lol.

hopefully in the future,rand will find time to visit emond's field and talk to marin al'vere

about egwene's part in the last battle.

[jedman67]

Jack, youre responding to my post in a different thread :P

[jack of shadows]

@jedman67,

yes i know,i do consider rand's arc and rand's power almost one and the same,

so i was absolutely sure that you were going to find my response to your post in

a different thread.(after all,it is about rand's breakfast location,not his powers lol).

[v2nkata]

Rand's arc ending was the most uncharacteristic of everything i've ever read. I mean he was raised as a decent man by Tram, he got the memories of LTT and at the end he just went to travel the world, leaving his 3 wives, 2 of which have his babies. Also his family and closest friends think he's dead. Did he completely changed when he switched bodies? I just can't understand this ending.

 

 

 

Edit: I saw it was discussed before. He can visit his friends,family and wives but still is he gonna pop up in a couple of months in front of his father "Hi i traveled the world a little, sorry that i didn't tell you anything and left you to burn me".  I mean with his powers he could have just appear in front of the people at his funeral and at least show them he's alive. He can just disappear after that.

[jack of shadows]

was rand al'thor a worthy dragon?

 

from the very beginning,i.e. a young man walking beside his father's wagon,

rand was my focal point,my true compass of this series-the powerhouse that moved

the story onwards.

even on my first read through,i was old enough to understand his choices,why he made

the decisions he did,i understood the forces that were trying to manipulate him,the struggle

he was going through,and the heavy burden he was carrying on his shoulders:

"at times,moiraine,my entire life-all that i've done-feels like a fool's task.what  is one more

impossible challange? i've met all the others.perhaps i can accomplish this one too."

 

rand did meet lanfear once in a memory of light,at the end of their meeting he showed her

what was (probably) his utmost desire--to leave a better world than he had the last time(as lews therin).

in the end,i think rand proved a worthy hero.he proved himself worthy of the faith the world and

his lovers/friends had put in him.

so yes,in my opinion,rand was a worthy dragon,and like moirain said:"the wheel wove as it willed".

[muddasssir]

Jack that was perhaps one of the best comments that I have read here at DM. Thank you, you just summed up what I wanted to say very nicely.

[jack of shadows]

@v2nkata,

"he could just appear in front of the people at his funeral and at least show them he's alive.

he can just disappear after that."

no.there is no middle ground for rand,at least not in the immediate future.

post last battle,rand is still the ruler of ilian and tear with many political and familial connections

all over randland e.g.malkier,andor,aiel clans,saldaea etc.

so either you go directly to the funeral pyre professing yourself alive and ready to carry on with your

duties as a ruler,or you slip out during moridin's funeral and disappear.

rand chose the latter,good for him!

[Hondo]

I've seen alot of unfounded assumptions and agnst over Rand and the ending of the book.  The book ends as Rand is riding away from his FUNERAL and he has only been conscious a very short time.   Do you really think that it would be a good idea to go up and give everyone a hug at the funeral pyre and say "see you soon"?   

 

We don't know what he is going to do that night, the next morning, the next week, etc.    We don't know what the three girls are going to do either.   For goodness sakes, Rand doesn't even know the extent of his new power.   I simply don't understand how anyone can read this series and assume that the four of them aren't going to see each other again.   I'll repeat what I wrote at Tor's website on the TOM review....if you really think that Rand and the three girls aren't going to see each other again, then please pack up all your WOT books and give them to someone with an ounce of imagination.

 

I guess a lot of the same people were disturbed by the ending of Cast Away with Tom Hanks too.

[Rhienne]

 

 

We don't know what he is going to do that night, the next morning, the next week, etc.    We don't know what the three girls are going to do either.   For goodness sakes, Rand doesn't even know the extent of his new power.   I simply don't understand how anyone can read this series and assume that the four of them aren't going to see each other again.   I'll repeat what I wrote at Tor's website on the TOM review....if you really think that Rand and the three girls aren't going to see each other again, then please pack up all your WOT books and give them to someone with an ounce of imagination.

I agree with you.  From Rand's scene with Elayne prior to the Las Battle it is very evident how much he cares about his girlfriends and unborn children.  

 

I think the ending is pretty thematic, rather than being a cast-iron indication of Rand's plans for the future.  As you say, his frame of mind must be pretty unusual.  He was almost certain he was going to die in the Last Battle, so he must be absolutely euphoric on the one hand, while on the other, very sad over the loss of Egwene (and also to a lesser extent Bashere and Rhuarc).

 

RJ said that he liked open endings - he didn't want to pin down exactly what would happen to the characters because he felt that meant the story really would be ended.  This way its up to our imaginations whether Rand decides to go and live in Caemlyn, or whether he tries to sort out Seanchan culture, or goes and lives with the Aiel, or back to the Two Rivers, etc., etc.

[Hondo]

 

From Rand's scene with Elayne prior to the Las Battle it is very evident how much he cares about his girlfriends and unborn children.  

 

This reminded me....From Rand's scene with Avi we know that the 3 girls will decide who and when.

 

[jack of shadows]

@hondo,

i am absolutely sure that in the future rand and his three lovers will find a way to be together,

at least partially.

aviendha,elayne,min and rand share too much love,respect,trust and six (well,not yet) children

between them just to let this amazing four way love affair fade away.

my biggest problem with the ending lies elsewhere,the fact that tam and nynaeve were left in the

dark,unaware of the real situation with rand.

my heart went out for tam when he stood near the pyre,torch in hand,tears in his eyes,saying goodbye

to his son,his only family,not knowing that rand is alive and well only a short distance away.

same with nynaeve,from winter heart onwards,(barring a short stint at the white tower),she was always

with rand,she cared deeply for him and was one of his staunchest supporters.

in my opinion,both of them,tam and nynaeve, deserved better than the way they were treated in the epilogue.

[jack of shadows]

I did notice that a few posters wrote that had the fact of rand's survival

after the last battle become a common knowledge it would annulled the dragon peace.

I don't see why?

sure,rand was the driving force behind this peace treaty but the covenant itself is between

the rulers themselves including the seanchan empire and the six aiel clans, not between

the dragon reborn and the rest of the rulers.

it is clearly evident that rand's disappearance after the last battle was premeditated,but

his motives for doing so were personal, not political, in my opinion, the dragon peace was

meant to be a political world treaty for the next 50 years or so, a way to countermeasure

last time chaos created by himself(as lews therin), not necessarily his legacy.

lastly,we cannot ignore the fear factor, I dare any ruler(including the seanchan empress)

to be bold enough or crazy enough to break the dragon peace knowing that the dragon

reborn is still alive, and hovering over everyone's head, the same dragon who defeated

the dark one.

[BFG]

I think it's because Rand forced the treaty through on the understanding that he was giving his life to save the world, not wrecking it for the next 50 years is the least they can do in return.  If Rand lived then why should they go through with it either?

[jack of shadows]

@bfg,

you're correct-up to a point

rand needed ...leverage to force the treaty through,and the only

thing the rulers didn't have is another dragon reborn,so he offered himself

as a bargaining chip, "i have something you want,something you need.me. my blood".

rand completed his side of the bargain when he defeated the dark one and sealed

the bore,and in return for his efforts,the rulers of randland are now bound to honor their

signatures and stick to the dragon peace(light,i do sound like a lawyer,lol).

his blood,or his dying,has nothing to do with their pact,it was just rand's way of

emphasising how far he was willing to go to ensure the safety of randland.

rand of course,took the decision from everyone when he disappeared,and like i said

before,his motives for doing so were personal,not potitical.

[Fanatic Mr Fox]

To me, Rand's arc was to be the rift healer, due to the bore created by Lanfears thirst for power, and Demandreds envy, etc etc. The way RJ describes the bore has got to be a man-made black hole; I lke to think of the black lines that connect the DO to the forsaken as threads of Hawkings radiation omitted by black holes. When Rand faces the DO and steps beyond, isn't what RJ describes Super-String theory?? Isn't it then that Rand figures he can't kill the DO?? And if he did, wouldn't it essentially be like a collision of matter and anti-matter cancelling each other out?? Moiraine does say to Rand that killing the DO would be worse than if the DO won. Rand and Moridin's arc seem to be the opposite sides of the same coin, making me think that the woman with the grey hair is actually Tigraine, Moridin's mother. As the seals weakened, would the DO be able to pull Tigraine and Moridin from the multi-verse?? From a reality where Tigraine ignores Gitana, and gives birth to Galad's younger brother instead.

[jack of shadows]

@fanatic mr fox,

"moiraine does say to rand that killing the do would be worse

than if the do won."

when did she say it?

when rand revealed his intention to kill the dark one,moiraine said:

"the dark one is part of the wheel,we are the threads that make up the

pattern's substance,and the dark one affects us. you cannot kill him."

knowing the outcome of the last battle,it is clearly evident that moiraine

was completely wrong in her assumptions regarding the dark one.

is there another conversation between rand and moiraine on the same subject?

[Sn33k3rS]

Um ok well I did not read everything on this topic, but I did see a lot of talk about Rand's pipe being lit. I will admit I first thought Rand had achieved some greater power. I read a lot of great ideas about where this power came from and what it is. Well after re-reading this part I really believe it was either Elayne or Aviendha(channeling). Rand "thought" of his pipe being lit and it was. Right after this he happens to turn south towards the three women and smiles...

[clutzyninja]

Um ok well I did not read everything on this topic, but I did see a lot of talk about Rand's pipe being lit. I will admit I first thought Rand had achieved some greater power. I read a lot of great ideas about where this power came from and what it is. Well after re-reading this part I really believe it was either Elayne or Aviendha(channeling). Rand "thought" of his pipe being lit and it was. Right after this he happens to turn south towards the three women and smiles...

Wow, that's so simple.  I think you may be right.  So no god powers for Rand, huh?  I think I like it better that way.

[Sn33k3rS]

Yea I know right? When I really think about Rand not having any kind of God like power or really any special power beyond vast knowledge is more then ok. All the time he spent being the Dragon was not a great time for Rand. Anyone in Rand's place would have gone mad long before he did. He was forced into so much and had to deal with so much pain and fear. I like that he is just a simple man again. He doesn't want to channel. He just wants to see the world as a simple man. He will for sure be with all three women. He loves them greatly and its not like he has a choice. Lets not forget who these women are and the fact they can sense exactly where he is and almost exactly what he's thinking. I believe eventually his friend's and family will know he is alive. It would be extremely difficult to prove the Dragon still lives. Especially because most who would know are close friends and family, so don't worry about the treaty :D

 

 

With what I said about the bond. I still don't know exactly how powerful their bond is. The veins of gold. The strong love they share for each other. Also the way Elayne bonded them and the fact of Elayne and Aviendha's first-sisters bond! A lot going on there!! ^_^

[Sn33k3rS]

Another thought I wanted to post which was quite a large source of discussion in this thread is about Rand sealing the DO away again. Some of you spoke a lot about killing the DO and a world with out evil would be better. I would have to disagree! With out the DO people would have no free will or choice. They would be forced to be a certain way. That alone is quite evil. If you don't choose of your own free will to be good then are you really good? If you cant choose then your just a puppet. With out evil there can be no good.  

[BFG]

Another thought I wanted to post which was quite a large source of discussion in this thread is about Rand sealing the DO away again. Some of you spoke a lot about killing the DO and a world with out evil would be better. I would have to disagree! With out the DO people would have no free will or choice. They would be forced to be a certain way. That alone is quite evil. If you don't choose of your own free will to be good then are you really good? If you cant choose then your just a puppet. With out evil there can be no good.  

 

The majority of the argument against this seems to be that people aren't comfortable with the Dark One being the source of all evil, especially given that we have Mordeth whose a separate evil.

[Sn33k3rS]

How do we know that Mordeth's evil could exist without the DO? The DO has never actually been destroyed.

[BFG]

The DO has won before, but never had an 'ultimate' victory.

 

Mordeth went to the Finns (and a lot of other places) looking for something to defeat the DO.  What he ended up with was an evil different to the DO, which is why they counter each other in Rands wounds, and also why he was able to use the evil at SHadar Logath to destroy the taint on the source.

[Sn33k3rS]

The DO has won before, but never had an 'ultimate' victory.

 

Mordeth went to the Finns (and a lot of other places) looking for something to defeat the DO.  What he ended up with was an evil different to the DO, which is why they counter each other in Rands wounds, and also why he was able to use the evil at SHadar Logath to destroy the taint on the source.

I know. I was saying he has never been destroyed. Not if he has ever won. I also know all about the evil in Shadar Logoth and how Rand cleansed saidin. When Rand created the conduit using saidin and saidar  the two evils where attracted to each other from having opposite polarities, and then destroyed each other in a huge explosion that destroyed the damn city!

 

I'm just saying we don't know if this evil could exist with out the DO. Maybe the evil within SL was from people not having freewill. Maybe Mordeth controlled them somehow(using a device from the finn...a mind control ray gun ^_^). That is the only evil I could think of existing with out the DO. People not having the freewill to choose to be good or evil.

[BFG]

Fair enough.  I guess it's a circular argument, the only reason Mordeth went looking for the alternative 'methods' was because of the DO, so if the DO never existed there would be no need for Mordeth to go looking.  Nonetheless, that specific evil is not sourced from the DO, so evil exists without him. 

 

Given the trolloc zombies that's an interesting point about the control - especially given the similarities between that and Rands opinion on the world without the DO.