Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Finnssss22]

 

 

 

I just skimmed the 22 pages, but here is a simple question:

 

Did Rand give to Tam "Justice"?

No, that was Laman's sword that was given to Rand by Avi.

 

I thought Rand wore Laman's sword inside the Pitt?

That was "justice".

 

I'm pretty sure Rand took Laman's sword to SG and gave Justice to Tam.

 

When Rand described the previous owner of the sword he gave to Tam, he called him...a kindred soul. He could only be talking about Hawkwing there, not Laman.

 

I also find it very unlikely that Rand would give away a gift from Avi.

[Asha'man Steve]

 

aby the way,i laughed my head off when cadsuane asked rand if he is going to give her a gift,

and he basically told her to f**k off!!!! hahahaha.

Yeah hilarious, the person who saved his life, rescued him from being shipped back to Elaida, directed a perfect defense in allowing the taint to be cleansed and whoe actions lead to his epiphany on DM(just to name some of what she has been up to) surely doesn't deserve crap. She has had as back as hard, if not harder than anyone in the story but she was a big "meanie" to to the DR so none of it counts.

In fairness she was a complete bitch, who followed none of the rules, she thought because she was one of the "oldest" aes sedai she deserved special treatment and that she didnt have to follow the rules anymore, made clear by her attitude to nynaeve who is stronger than her and would require her to show deference to nynaeve but she never did. she was the boss and everyone had to do as she said.

[Suttree]

 

 

aby the way,i laughed my head off when cadsuane asked rand if he is going to give her a gift,

and he basically told her to f**k off!!!! hahahaha.

Yeah hilarious, the person who saved his life, rescued him from being shipped back to Elaida, directed a perfect defense in allowing the taint to be cleansed and whoe actions lead to his epiphany on DM(just to name some of what she has been up to) surely doesn't deserve crap. She has had as back as hard, if not harder than anyone in the story but she was a big "meanie" to to the DR so none of it counts.

In fairness she was a complete bitch, who followed none of the rules, she thought because she was one of the "oldest" aes sedai she deserved special treatment and that she didnt have to follow the rules anymore, made clear by her attitude to nynaeve who is stronger than her and would require her to show deference to nynaeve but she never did. she was the boss and everyone had to do as she said.

Hope you saw the post after where I pointed out I was joking in relation ot Rand giving her something but nevertheless the statement above stands as true.

 

You need to go back and read what actually happens. She almost unfailingly treats people based on their actions. She does stand WT custom on it's head and is a throwback to what AS should be. We see her swear to do what was best for Rand, not herself or the WT.  We have multiple references in text and in RJ's notes about how her "rule breaking" was for the betterment of things around her. The AS need this type of action to get past the stagnation of their failed insitution where "rules" have most assuredly held them back.

 

RJ

 

She had a reputation for standing White Tower custom on its head, twisting it as she chose, and even violating it outright, as in her frank speech about age, her direct questions and refusals to accept oblique answers, and her interference in the actions of other sisters. The same could be said of her regarding Tower law, for that matter. She had a reputation for taking direct action, even to the point of violence, slapping faces, boxing ears, and more (especially when faced with what she considered stupidity), with high as often as low, or rather, more often. She also had a reputation for not caring whether she dented somebody's pride, if she thought it necessary.

 

There are the usual tales expected of a Green, only more of them. Riots suppressed and wars stopped single-handedly; rulers steadied on their thrones, or pulled from them, sometimes toppled openly and sometimes more subtly (toppling rulers was something Aes Sedai had not really done much of in the last thousand years, but Cadsuane seemed in many ways a throwback). Rescuing people carried into the Blight or kidnaped by dangerous bands of Darkfriends, breaking up murderous rings of Darkfriends plaguing villages and towns, and exposing powerful Darkfriends who tried to kill her to protect themselves

 

also

 

RJ

 

And Cadsuane? She's the tough maiden aunt a lot of us have had. Not the one who tries to keep you a child your whole life. She's the one who began expecting at least some adult responses out of you at about age six, the one who was willing to hand you responsibilities that everyone else thought you were too young for. You probably had a more nerve-wracking time, and more excitement and adventure, with her than you did with any three or four other adults in your life.

[Finnssss22]

Rand did give Justice to Tam and was wearing Laman's sword in the pit.

Full confirmation here...

 

 

aMoL-23:

And a tall man, hair the color of living coals. He wore his coat of red
and gold, but under it a simple Two Rivers shirt. What he had become and
what he had been, wrapped together in one. He carried two swords, like a
Shienaran. One looked as if it were glass; he wore it upon his back. The
other was the sword of the Treekiller, King Laman, tied at his waist. He
carried that because of her. Fool man.
Aviendha raised her hand to him, and he raised his in return. That
would be their only farewell if he failed in his task or she died during hers.
With a last look, she turned away from him and toward her duty.

[Suttree]

 

Rand did give Justice to Tam and was wearing Laman's sword in the pit.

Full confirmation here...

 

 

aMoL-23:

And a tall man, hair the color of living coals. He wore his coat of red

and gold, but under it a simple Two Rivers shirt. What he had become and

what he had been, wrapped together in one. He carried two swords, like a

Shienaran. One looked as if it were glass; he wore it upon his back. The

other was the sword of the Treekiller, King Laman, tied at his waist. He

carried that because of her. Fool man.

Aviendha raised her hand to him, and he raised his in return. That

would be their only farewell if he failed in his task or she died during hers.

With a last look, she turned away from him and toward her duty.

Thanks for that Finnnsss, must have flipped them around in my head. Was thinking back to Rand's thoughts on  the justice blade feeling "right" for him and just assumed that was the one he held on to.

[Finnssss22]

 

 

Rand did give Justice to Tam and was wearing Laman's sword in the pit.

Full confirmation here...

 

 

aMoL-23:

And a tall man, hair the color of living coals. He wore his coat of red

and gold, but under it a simple Two Rivers shirt. What he had become and

what he had been, wrapped together in one. He carried two swords, like a

Shienaran. One looked as if it were glass; he wore it upon his back. The

other was the sword of the Treekiller, King Laman, tied at his waist. He

carried that because of her. Fool man.

Aviendha raised her hand to him, and he raised his in return. That

would be their only farewell if he failed in his task or she died during hers.

With a last look, she turned away from him and toward her duty.

Thanks for that Finnnsss, must have flipped them around in my head. Was thinking back to Rand's thoughts on  the justice blade feeling "right" for him and just assumed that was the one he held on to.

 

 

No problem Sut. I know that you sometimes concern yourself a little too much with how the book was written and not what was actually written   

 

( I am kidding dude, I couldn't resist)

[Suttree]

 

 

 

Rand did give Justice to Tam and was wearing Laman's sword in the pit.

Full confirmation here...

 

 

aMoL-23:

And a tall man, hair the color of living coals. He wore his coat of red

and gold, but under it a simple Two Rivers shirt. What he had become and

what he had been, wrapped together in one. He carried two swords, like a

Shienaran. One looked as if it were glass; he wore it upon his back. The

other was the sword of the Treekiller, King Laman, tied at his waist. He

carried that because of her. Fool man.

Aviendha raised her hand to him, and he raised his in return. That

would be their only farewell if he failed in his task or she died during hers.

With a last look, she turned away from him and toward her duty.

Thanks for that Finnnsss, must have flipped them around in my head. Was thinking back to Rand's thoughts on  the justice blade feeling "right" for him and just assumed that was the one he held on to.

 

 

No problem Sut. I know that you sometimes concern yourself a little too much with how the book was written and not what was actually written 

 

( I am kidding dude, I couldn't resist)

[jack of shadows]

to add a little extra information about rand's gift to tam,

when rand woke up in the tent after the last battle,he noticed laman sword:

"laman's sword was there,sitting atop a neat pile of mixed clothing".

so tam got arthur hawking's sword.

[Vaikaris]

A hundred times during the entire series we are led to believe that the pattern and the DO are a great mystery, that the pattern balances itself and gives good to balance out evil, that the DO is an anomaly....

 

And then the whole mystery is shat on by the simple explanation that the DO is evil and the pattern good. Wow. Seriously. 

 

Let's not mention the entire ending. I mean the real ending. He gets Moridin's body and goes travelling? Ok, that's perfectly fine in any random fantasy book, but in WoT? What happens with Elayne, Aviendha and Min? Wouldn't it be awkward as hell that he has the body of the forsaken now? I imagine them making love and looking him in the eye, seeing the saa to be quite awkward. Joke aside, why would they leave it at that? Why not give a small clue as to the future intentions? It's perfectly fine to leave it to the imagination, but completely leaving it to the imagination just leaves it out. I mean, how come there wasn't a scene with Elayne, one with Aviendha and one with Min explaining their intentions towards the future, for example Elayne talking to her advisors of her plan and her thoughts about, maybe, seeking out Rand and having him stay with her in Andor? Aviendha thinking about staying with Elayne as ambassador of the Aiel or some other crap and hunting down Rand because Elayne can't while she's queen? Min something with the Seanchan and going to Rand and the others? Hell, I don't know, I'm not an author, but I wanted something to give a clue as to what would happen. Anything.

 

I honestly loved Rand's arc, bar the very ending, as it stood separately, but it fucked up and ruined all the mystery of the entire series, which was what made it what it was. I expected some epic explanations of the conflict as a game of sha'rah, where the DO attempted to win by killing Rand while he was under the control of the light, or where he had turned Rand to the dark to allow him to be in the light at the Last Battle....you know, things which fit the mystery and grandeur of WoT. 

Not a fairy tale of good versus evil.

Well, that's just my rant.

[Agitel]

A hundred times during the entire series we are led to believe that the pattern and the DO are a great mystery, that the pattern balances itself and gives good to balance out evil, that the DO is an anomaly....

 

And then the whole mystery is shat on by the simple explanation that the DO is evil and the pattern good. Wow. Seriously. 

 

I think you missed something. The Pattern is balance. Free will is balance. That's why the Dark One is necessary. If the Pattern was good and the Dark One was evil and this was simply a good versus evil story, then killing the Dark One would have been the correct solution. Rand's own conclusion was that the Dark One was never the enemy at all. The Pattern balances itself because of the existence of the Dark One; without him, the Pattern could only be good.

 

The Pattern reacts negatively to interference, however, and the Dark One was trying to tip the balance in his favor. The Pattern therefore spun a counterpoint balance to that around Rand, and required the 'good' unity of men and women as well -- NOT because the Pattern is good, but because it needed that as a balance to the Dark One's pressure. This wasn't a victory of good over evil, this was a victory of balance and free will over one extreme or the other.

 

Talk about misreading . . . 

[Vaikaris]

 

A hundred times during the entire series we are led to believe that the pattern and the DO are a great mystery, that the pattern balances itself and gives good to balance out evil, that the DO is an anomaly....

 

And then the whole mystery is shat on by the simple explanation that the DO is evil and the pattern good. Wow. Seriously. 

 

I think you missed something. The Pattern is balance. Free will is balance. That's why the Dark One is necessary. If the Pattern was good and the Dark One was evil and this was simply a good versus evil story, then killing the Dark One would have been the correct solution. Rand's own conclusion was that the Dark One was never the enemy at all. The Pattern balances itself because of the existence of the Dark One; without him, the Pattern could only be good.

 

The Pattern reacts negatively to interference, however, and the Dark One was trying to tip the balance in his favor. The Pattern therefore spun a counterpoint balance to that around Rand, and required the 'good' unity of men and women as well -- NOT because the Pattern is good, but because it needed that as a balance to the Dark One's pressure. This wasn't a victory of good over evil, this was a victory of balance and free will over one extreme or the other.

 

Talk about misreading . . . 

 

You really shouldn't assume what people think when they post - what I meant was, that the Pattern was balance and the DO was an anomaly. That is what has been explained to us. I.e., without the DO the pattern would spin out evil to counteract the good. We could go in a huge philosophical discussion about balance, good and evil, but my point stands even if yours is right as well - it was all put as a huge mystery of how the pattern, the DO, the Creator and the Dragon figure in the scheme of things and it was all unravelled by saying that the Pattern naturally is good, the DO is naturally evil and they balance each other out. No mystery, no grand explanation, etc. 

 

That's what I said and even if my reasoning for why it is such is wrong, it is true that the mystery was kinda ruined.

[Agitel]

 

 

A hundred times during the entire series we are led to believe that the pattern and the DO are a great mystery, that the pattern balances itself and gives good to balance out evil, that the DO is an anomaly....

 

And then the whole mystery is shat on by the simple explanation that the DO is evil and the pattern good. Wow. Seriously. 

 

I think you missed something. The Pattern is balance. Free will is balance. That's why the Dark One is necessary. If the Pattern was good and the Dark One was evil and this was simply a good versus evil story, then killing the Dark One would have been the correct solution. Rand's own conclusion was that the Dark One was never the enemy at all. The Pattern balances itself because of the existence of the Dark One; without him, the Pattern could only be good.

 

The Pattern reacts negatively to interference, however, and the Dark One was trying to tip the balance in his favor. The Pattern therefore spun a counterpoint balance to that around Rand, and required the 'good' unity of men and women as well -- NOT because the Pattern is good, but because it needed that as a balance to the Dark One's pressure. This wasn't a victory of good over evil, this was a victory of balance and free will over one extreme or the other.

 

Talk about misreading . . . 

 

You really shouldn't assume what people think when they post - what I meant was, that the Pattern was balance and the DO was an anomaly. That is what has been explained to us. I.e., without the DO the pattern would spin out evil to counteract the good. We could go in a huge philosophical discussion about balance, good and evil, but my point stands even if yours is right as well - it was all put as a huge mystery of how the pattern, the DO, the Creator and the Dragon figure in the scheme of things and it was all unravelled by saying that the Pattern naturally is good, the DO is naturally evil and they balance each other out. No mystery, no grand explanation, etc. 

 

That's what I said and even if my reasoning for why it is such is wrong, it is true that the mystery was kinda ruined.

 

The bolded. Where does it say that?

[Vaikaris]

 

 

 

A hundred times during the entire series we are led to believe that the pattern and the DO are a great mystery, that the pattern balances itself and gives good to balance out evil, that the DO is an anomaly....

 

And then the whole mystery is shat on by the simple explanation that the DO is evil and the pattern good. Wow. Seriously. 

 

I think you missed something. The Pattern is balance. Free will is balance. That's why the Dark One is necessary. If the Pattern was good and the Dark One was evil and this was simply a good versus evil story, then killing the Dark One would have been the correct solution. Rand's own conclusion was that the Dark One was never the enemy at all. The Pattern balances itself because of the existence of the Dark One; without him, the Pattern could only be good.

 

The Pattern reacts negatively to interference, however, and the Dark One was trying to tip the balance in his favor. The Pattern therefore spun a counterpoint balance to that around Rand, and required the 'good' unity of men and women as well -- NOT because the Pattern is good, but because it needed that as a balance to the Dark One's pressure. This wasn't a victory of good over evil, this was a victory of balance and free will over one extreme or the other.

 

Talk about misreading . . . 

 

You really shouldn't assume what people think when they post - what I meant was, that the Pattern was balance and the DO was an anomaly. That is what has been explained to us. I.e., without the DO the pattern would spin out evil to counteract the good. We could go in a huge philosophical discussion about balance, good and evil, but my point stands even if yours is right as well - it was all put as a huge mystery of how the pattern, the DO, the Creator and the Dragon figure in the scheme of things and it was all unravelled by saying that the Pattern naturally is good, the DO is naturally evil and they balance each other out. No mystery, no grand explanation, etc. 

 

That's what I said and even if my reasoning for why it is such is wrong, it is true that the mystery was kinda ruined.

 

The bolded. Where does it say that?

 

Out of memory, when Rand creates the world without the DO, the DO says that the world would be "Perfect, Unchanging" without him. Which would assume that the Pattern does not create evil to counteract the good. I.e., without the DO it is just good.

 

Who cares though, even if I'm wrong here, point still stands. No mystery, nothing.

[Agitel]

 

 

 

 

A hundred times during the entire series we are led to believe that the pattern and the DO are a great mystery, that the pattern balances itself and gives good to balance out evil, that the DO is an anomaly....

 

And then the whole mystery is shat on by the simple explanation that the DO is evil and the pattern good. Wow. Seriously. 

 

I think you missed something. The Pattern is balance. Free will is balance. That's why the Dark One is necessary. If the Pattern was good and the Dark One was evil and this was simply a good versus evil story, then killing the Dark One would have been the correct solution. Rand's own conclusion was that the Dark One was never the enemy at all. The Pattern balances itself because of the existence of the Dark One; without him, the Pattern could only be good.

 

The Pattern reacts negatively to interference, however, and the Dark One was trying to tip the balance in his favor. The Pattern therefore spun a counterpoint balance to that around Rand, and required the 'good' unity of men and women as well -- NOT because the Pattern is good, but because it needed that as a balance to the Dark One's pressure. This wasn't a victory of good over evil, this was a victory of balance and free will over one extreme or the other.

 

Talk about misreading . . . 

 

You really shouldn't assume what people think when they post - what I meant was, that the Pattern was balance and the DO was an anomaly. That is what has been explained to us. I.e., without the DO the pattern would spin out evil to counteract the good. We could go in a huge philosophical discussion about balance, good and evil, but my point stands even if yours is right as well - it was all put as a huge mystery of how the pattern, the DO, the Creator and the Dragon figure in the scheme of things and it was all unravelled by saying that the Pattern naturally is good, the DO is naturally evil and they balance each other out. No mystery, no grand explanation, etc. 

 

That's what I said and even if my reasoning for why it is such is wrong, it is true that the mystery was kinda ruined.

 

The bolded. Where does it say that?

 

Out of memory, when Rand creates the world without the DO, the DO says that the world would be "Perfect, Unchanging" without him. Which would assume that the Pattern does not create evil to counteract the good. I.e., without the DO it is just good.

 

Who cares though, even if I'm wrong here, point still stands. No mystery, nothing.

 

The Pattern and the Wheel was designed by the Creator, who is intrinsically good, it would seem. That explains why he would need to make it 'pull' from the Dark One in order to create balance and free will. But perhaps the Pattern pulls from the Creator as well, if that's how it was designed. The Pattern weaves both of those forces together, perhaps not creating either good or evil, but uses them to create balanced outcomes. To destroy the Dark One leaves the Pattern only able to pull from one source. If the Dark One were to remake the Pattern, he might not necessarily need to kill the Creator, he might be able to design it to only be of himself, not of both. There are still some questions to be answered, though, even if we've been given better insight into the metaphysics.

[Leflair]

But if the Dark One is sealed outside the pattern, how does his evil enter into anything?

 

Right, the Wheel is the one that allows people like Lanfear to create the hole in the first place (probably not an evil act in itself) - seems like a kinda random thing to allow if the Wheel is just concerned with "balance" and not say, telling a High Fantasy story, it also removes all agency from the Dark One and places it squarely in the hands of the Pandoras Box opening jerks who aren't even making an informed good/evil decision in the first place (so what purpose does the whole exercise serve, exactly?).

Which also doesn't explain why people would be completely "Turned to the Light", a world without evil, if the Dark One was destroyed. Logically this mean that the Dark One would have to be able to "influence" people, even when sealed "perfectly" or the instant Rand sealed him up again, everyone would turn out like that BAD END of his "Good" example future where he killed the Dark One (something that would make the Dark One pointless, and the Wheel evil for letting people stumble onto that particular IED of nasty).

 

Then there's the earlier writing which certainly made it seem like the Dark One can "Draw out" the evil in people, kinda like a more subtle Taint (which itself seem to be some form of True Power, passive, compulsion) - vs what we got in aMoL where Rand admits that the ol' age was probably fucked even if the Bore didn't happen.

 

Seems contradictory to me and I don't think any explanation sits well with what we read in aMoL.

[Vaikaris]

But if the Dark One is sealed outside the pattern, how does his evil enter into anything?

 

Right, the Wheel is the one that allows people like Lanfear to create the hole in the first place (probably not an evil act in itself) - seems like a kinda random thing to allow if the Wheel is just concerned with "balance" and not say, telling a High Fantasy story, it also removes all agency from the Dark One and places it squarely in the hands of the Pandoras Box opening jerks who aren't even making an informed good/evil decision in the first place (so what purpose does the whole exercise serve, exactly?).

Which also doesn't explain why people would be completely "Turned to the Light", a world without evil, if the Dark One was destroyed. Logically this mean that the Dark One would have to be able to "influence" people, even when sealed "perfectly" or the instant Rand sealed him up again, everyone would turn out like that BAD END of his "Good" example future where he killed the Dark One (something that would make the Dark One pointless, and the Wheel evil for letting people stumble onto that particular IED of nasty).

 

Then there's the earlier writing which certainly made it seem like the Dark One can "Draw out" the evil in people, kinda like a more subtle Taint (which itself seem to be some form of True Power, passive, compulsion) - vs what we got in aMoL where Rand admits that the ol' age was probably fucked even if the Bore didn't happen.

 

Seems contradictory to me and I don't think any explanation sits well with what we read in aMoL.

 

It's scary how you just wrote exactly the same thing I was writing, using almost the same words.

[Leflair]

The only logical conclusion to draw is that the Wheel must be destroyed.

 

 

I Win Again, Lews Therin.

[Agitel]

But if the Dark One is sealed outside the pattern, how does his evil enter into anything?

 

Right, the Wheel is the one that allows people like Lanfear to create the hole in the first place (probably not an evil act in itself) - seems like a kinda random thing to allow if the Wheel is just concerned with "balance" and not say, telling a High Fantasy story, it also removes all agency from the Dark One and places it squarely in the hands of the Pandoras Box opening jerks who aren't even making an informed good/evil decision in the first place (so what purpose does the whole exercise serve, exactly?).

Which also doesn't explain why people would be completely "Turned to the Light", a world without evil, if the Dark One was destroyed. Logically this mean that the Dark One would have to be able to "influence" people, even when sealed "perfectly" or the instant Rand sealed him up again, everyone would turn out like that BAD END of his "Good" example future where he killed the Dark One (something that would make the Dark One pointless, and the Wheel evil for letting people stumble onto that particular IED of nasty).

 

Then there's the earlier writing which certainly made it seem like the Dark One can "Draw out" the evil in people, kinda like a more subtle Taint (which itself seem to be some form of True Power, passive, compulsion) - vs what we got in aMoL where Rand admits that the ol' age was probably fucked even if the Bore didn't happen.

 

Seems contradictory to me and I don't think any explanation sits well with what we read in aMoL.

 

The Dark One isn't like the Biblical satan, tempting people to do evil by directly interacting with them when the Pattern is whole. You could say that the Wheel weaves the essence of the Dark One and the Creator into the Pattern, or perhaps rather than weaving directly into the Pattern, the Wheel's input is pulled from both sources. The Dark One isn't able to influence this weaving until a Bore is made.

[Leflair]

So you are saying that the True Power is weaved into the very fabric of reality?

 

Mind you, the True Power is literally sentinent evil energy.

 

Fun thought experiment (also called "You missed a spot"):

The Taint is sorta like a tied-off weave of the True Power.

The True Power = The Dark One ("It is HIM", remember?)

The Crazy Taint Compulsion didn't disappear with the cleansing of Saidin.

...did it disappear with the Sealing of the Bore?

Where does it go if say, a certain Aes Sedai removes it from their skulls?

See where that is going?

[Agitel]

So you are saying that the True Power is weaved into the very fabric of reality?

 

Mind you, the True Power is literally sentinent evil energy.

 

Fun thought experiment (also called "You missed a spot"):

The Taint is sorta like a tied-off weave of the True Power.

The True Power = The Dark One ("It is HIM", remember?)

The Crazy Taint Compulsion didn't disappear with the cleansing of Saidin.

...did it disappear with the Sealing of the Bore?

Where does it go if say, a certain Aes Sedai removes it from their skulls?

See where that is going?

 

There's faulty logic in assuming that the taint and the True Power are the same thing. We don't know that. The effects of tainted saidin insanity and TP use are also different. If the taint was part of the Dark One, then every time the One Power is cleansed of a taint, part of the Dark One is neutralized, or at least that's what must have happened at Shadar Logoth, if what you're saying is true. I don't think RJ would have supported the Dark One being used up over time and eventually dying from cleansings.

 

As for how exactly the Dark One is tied into the natural weaving of the Pattern, that hasn't been explained for certain. What is clear is that evil doesn't exist because the Dark One tries to influence the Pattern, evil exists in the Pattern because the Dark One exists. We should then be able to surmise, from everything we've been told about balance and the Dark One being an equal but opposing force to the Creator, that good exists because the Creator exists. That implies that the Wheel must somehow use the existence of these two beings to weave a balanced Pattern. The Creator could not create a world of free will using only himself. If he'd done that, we'd have a world like the one Rand created.

[cyribis]

I actually like what you said in the last two lines. Very interesting take on that part and how it played out. Certainly makes you think, no? That maybe with the thinning of the pattern at that location, the Bore sealed, TAR retreating, as Rand/Moridin stepped through the closing passage way, the swap took place and then both bodies just sort of crumpled. Perhaps even Rand doesn't know what he's doing consciously but manages to move his own soul into an empty vessel as part of his "awakened mind" after seeing and using the building blocks of Creation. 

I haven't had the chance to read this whole topic, so I'm sorry if someone has already brought this up. I've been thinking about the body swap and how it might have occurred.

 

With the Horn being sounded at Shayol Ghul, TAR and reality became one. In fact, even before it was sounded from Perrin's perspective we see Rand/Moridin/Nynaeve/Moiraine in TAR and reality from Thom's view confirming the thinness of the Pattern there.

 

I'm not saying the Horn had anything to do with it, but I can't rule it out. In any case, the key is the blending of TAR and reality. With the Bore sealed moments before the swap occurs, this blending should have been receding. This is where I think the Horn was needed to help keep that link until the swap could be completed.

 

We have seen it possible with Slayer when he steps out of TAR into reality he has the opportunity to switch souls. So as Rand climbs out of the Pit the Aiel woman says "Yes, that's good. That is what you need to do" (AMOL, pg 892), Rand is performing the soul swapping as she disappears (her form retreated) because Rand is leaving TAR for Moridin's body and vice versa.

[Leflair]

I presume the Taint = The True Power, because something can't come from nothing, and it is consistent with how the Power(s) are shown to work, and while a weave of the One Power may create an effect like say, "fire", the fire goes out if the Weave is cut, unless the fire starts burning something, at which part it's just an ordinary fire.

Likewise, the Taint must still be a weave of the True Power, even if the madness that it "creates" isn't. I forget exactly how it's described when Nynaeve removes it from that one Asha'man, does it just wriggle and eventually "fade" away? Like the Power of a Weave returning to the Source? -> The Taint is not an actual physical thing, even if it has physical effects, therefore = The True Power (Because it certainly isn't one of the other powers).

 

To move on with your argument, was the True Power in the Taint really "destroyed" when it came into contact with Shadar Logoth? They could still have neutralized each other (two weaves cutting each other up), while not removing any actual energy in the end, just returning to their respective Sources.

As part of that, one must ask Where did the "Power" in Shadar Logoth come from in the first place? Something can't come from nothing, and Shadar Logoth was a form of evil and if the logic of aMoL is to be followed, Evil = The Dark One. If it is a completely different set of evil that man can just spontaneously generate by thinking nasty thoughts I think the logic within the world of WoT got a bigger problem than the preservation of matter/energy in how the Dark One operates. Because once again, what's the point of the DO if man is capable of creating tangible evil of their own?

 

With your own logic, would the Creator then be = The One Power?

 

Is WoT just two gods rubbing against each other for eternity on some sort of gigantic metaphorical water wheel?

 

But the Dark One isn't there on his own accord.

 

Which means that the Creator, in your theory, is doing nasty things indeed to the Dark One.

 

Ergo one must conclude that the must be destroyed.

 

I win again Lews Therin

 

 

(I'm not a bad person, honest! The logic made me do it!)

[Agitel]

Saying something is logical doesn't make it so.

 

I have to be leaving for my undergraduate senior thesis seminar soon. I hope to address this later, though that may not be until Thursday.

[The_Underage_Asha'man]

 

But if the Dark One is sealed outside the pattern, how does his evil enter into anything?

 

Right, the Wheel is the one that allows people like Lanfear to create the hole in the first place (probably not an evil act in itself) - seems like a kinda random thing to allow if the Wheel is just concerned with "balance" and not say, telling a High Fantasy story, it also removes all agency from the Dark One and places it squarely in the hands of the Pandoras Box opening jerks who aren't even making an informed good/evil decision in the first place (so what purpose does the whole exercise serve, exactly?).

Which also doesn't explain why people would be completely "Turned to the Light", a world without evil, if the Dark One was destroyed. Logically this mean that the Dark One would have to be able to "influence" people, even when sealed "perfectly" or the instant Rand sealed him up again, everyone would turn out like that BAD END of his "Good" example future where he killed the Dark One (something that would make the Dark One pointless, and the Wheel evil for letting people stumble onto that particular IED of nasty).

 

Then there's the earlier writing which certainly made it seem like the Dark One can "Draw out" the evil in people, kinda like a more subtle Taint (which itself seem to be some form of True Power, passive, compulsion) - vs what we got in aMoL where Rand admits that the ol' age was probably fucked even if the Bore didn't happen.

 

Seems contradictory to me and I don't think any explanation sits well with what we read in aMoL.

 

The Dark One isn't like the Biblical satan, tempting people to do evil by directly interacting with them when the Pattern is whole. You could say that the Wheel weaves the essence of the Dark One and the Creator into the Pattern, or perhaps rather than weaving directly into the Pattern, the Wheel's input is pulled from both sources. The Dark One isn't able to influence this weaving until a Bore is made.

 

 

The reason that the bore was ever introduced into the AoL by the wheel was because the wheel needs balance. The AoL was becoming too close to "eradicating" all evil, similar to the vision that Rand had where he killed the DO.

[GregoryJackson]

 

The most common theory (and the one that makes the most sense) on Rand lighting the pipe is that during his "battle" with the DO, where he was manipulating the pattern, he learnt how to manipulate the pattern and uses that skill to light his pipe.

 

 

The frequency of a theory isn't proof of accuracy (cue Gaidal Cain = Olver and Taimendred).    Exactly what do you mean when you say that Rand manipulated the pattern during the battle with the DO?   Building make-believe visions isn't manipulating the pattern....they were just what-if scenarios.

Were they?

 

Consider this as a wild theory:

 

Where was the Dark One Bound? At Shayol Ghul.

When was the Dark One Bound? At the moment of creation.

Who bound the Dark One? The Creator.

 

My wild theory is that those were not just what if scenarios. They were different realities being created. Worlds of IF... Actually in existance and reachable via portal stone. Rand became the Creator... Not in the sense of God. But one who creates is a creator.

 

NO! Nakomi is the creator incarnate...

 

What age are they in? The end of the third age. What age was the age of Legends? The Second Age. Or maybe the first. There are seven ages. I suspect that Nakomi was the "Chosen One" of the previous third age.

 

Here's something else to consider, the book takes place in an age "called the third age by some." But which age is it really? Depending on one's point of view, it could be the Seventh age, and thus the new age ushered in by binding of the Dark One at shayol Ghul, ironocally, not just patching the bore, but remaking the prison. I figure that last time around, the Chosen One was a woman named Nakomi. And she did what Rand did at the moment of creation.

 

We have to remember that some portal stone worlds were reflections in which the Shadow was triumphant. Wasn't it even mentioned that some of them had poisonous atmospheres? If you consider that these worlds have been going on independently form age to age, some may have destroyed themselves many turnings of the wheel before.

 

This rabbit hole goes really deep my friends...

 

Consider what Rand does at the end... riding away from everything, not even telling Tam he's okay. Rand chose to leave PEOPLE to sort the world out. "I will take no part. Only the chosen ones can do what must be done, if they are willing."

 

But lighting his pipe by will of creation was a neutral act. So in the First/Fourth age, the Creator dwells among men in a body that once belonged to a Forsaken. Nobody knows who it belonged to before that. In the Second/Fifth age, nobody will have any memory of this person. When the end of the Seventh age comes again, and it is time for the next "last battle", it may be a strange hermit introducing himself as Rand al'Thor sharing a fire with someone who is on an urgent errand, and ultimately shows up at the end of the Confrontation.

 

In the previous turning of the Wheel, the name "Nakomi" might have been as well known as Rand al'Thor was in this turning.

 

Like I said.. It's a wild theory, and unless Brandon Sanderson or Harriet come out and directly say, "That's not the case," there is no way to prove or disprove it.