Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[wRAR]

That leaves the best possibility for the body switch to have occurred after the Bore was completely closed while Rand was still controlling Moridin through Callendor.    It seems reasonable to suppose that a great deal of power would be required to swap bodies and Rand had that available.    There is nothing that I can think of to argue against it happeneing here.   So, it looks like the best possibility to me.

I still don't like the idea of anyone seeing Moridin carry the Rand's body.

[madman]

so what was the body swap done by? was the true power used or the one power?

 

Also did anyone else feel the ending was sort of like the end to the last eragon book? the hero just finishes the task and leaves hoping his love will follow one day soon. having access to some almighty power?

[Nae'blis]

 

So basically you might make little choices like what to wear each day, but the Pattern won't allow you to choose when important decisions come up. It will force you in the right direction. 

 

 

Are you claiming that Lanfear was "forced" to drill into the Bore and that this was the "right direction"?  

Yes, according to that Herid Fel and RJ quotes provided by Suttree that is exactly what happened:

 

 

"Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again."


Interview: Nov 11th, 1997
Barnes and Noble Chat (Verbatim)
Brandon from Mission Viejo
Mr. Jordan, It's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.
Robert Jordan
Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course, the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

 

 

 

To me it would have made much more sense if the Dark One was not part of the Pattern's plans- and thus why it spun out ta'veren to correct itself- but apparently He is.

[Durinax]

While I was happy for Rand that he survived, it was hard for me to see him just ride away from everyone he loved, his father, his 3 women, his friends and children that he knew were to be born.

yes that kind of irritated me, especially when he started wondering which would follow him, or all, or none. All 3 of his women have important responsibilities now, especially Min (since the seanchan are the least devastated). I was hoping for something more than Rand becoming a nomad, all that came into my mind was the Menu Title from Oricina of time when Link is riding Epona around on the Field and different stuff.

 

Not to mention the deal with the 3 women and the body swap going down really irritated me. Their man had been through hell you think at least one of them would sit around inside the tent

[Hondo]

 

 

So basically you might make little choices like what to wear each day, but the Pattern won't allow you to choose when important decisions come up. It will force you in the right direction. 

 

 

Are you claiming that Lanfear was "forced" to drill into the Bore and that this was the "right direction"?  

Yes, according to that Herid Fel and RJ quotes provided by Suttree that is exactly what happened:

 

 

I couldn't find anything in either quote that suggested that the Pattern forced Lanfear to drill into the DO's bore.  

 

That decision was her choice...which flies directly into the quoted claim that the Pattern doesn't allow people to make "important decisions".

[Nae'blis]

 

 Perhaps I'm wrong but if that is true, why did it allow LTT to seal the bore improperly? 

It's simply the pattern of that age. Both RJ and Herid Fel told us this:

 

LoC Ch. 18

> "Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again."

 

 

Interview: Nov 11th, 1997

Barnes and Noble Chat (Verbatim)

Brandon from Mission Viejo

Mr. Jordan, It's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

Robert Jordan

Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course, the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

This is why it was always pretty ridiculous when people claimed that this was actually the "last battle".

 

 

See what I have emboldened. Fel is stating that the Prison has to be whole again when the Pattern spins back around the Age of Legends, in order for it to be bored into again. In other words, the Bore, the faulty sealing, and Rand's perfect sealing are all part of the Pattern's plan. Thus, the Pattern made Lanfear create the Bore, even if it seemed from her perspective that she chose to.

[matt123]

 

 

 

So basically you might make little choices like what to wear each day, but the Pattern won't allow you to choose when important decisions come up. It will force you in the right direction. 

 

 

Are you claiming that Lanfear was "forced" to drill into the Bore and that this was the "right direction"?  

Yes, according to that Herid Fel and RJ quotes provided by Suttree that is exactly what happened:

 

 

I couldn't find anything in either quote that suggested that the Pattern forced Lanfear to drill into the DO's bore.  

 

That decision was her choice...which flies directly into the quoted claim that the Pattern doesn't allow people to make "important decisions".

 

I doubt Lanfear or anyone else was forced to drill into the DO's bore. I think the drilling of that bore is the end of the age of legends, which could happen at any time. I just think at the end of the age of legends when they get too advanced it is inevitable that someone will look for a new source of power and will drill the bore. To compare it to our world, it was kind of inevitable that the atom bomb would be discovered once scientific knowledge advanced enough. If WWII would not have happened the bomb would have been discovered a few years later at most, it is just inevitable.

[Sabio]

 

 

 

 

So basically you might make little choices like what to wear each day, but the Pattern won't allow you to choose when important decisions come up. It will force you in the right direction. 

 

 

Are you claiming that Lanfear was "forced" to drill into the Bore and that this was the "right direction"?  

Yes, according to that Herid Fel and RJ quotes provided by Suttree that is exactly what happened:

 

 

I couldn't find anything in either quote that suggested that the Pattern forced Lanfear to drill into the DO's bore.  

 

That decision was her choice...which flies directly into the quoted claim that the Pattern doesn't allow people to make "important decisions".

 

I doubt Lanfear or anyone else was forced to drill into the DO's bore. I think the drilling of that bore is the end of the age of legends, which could happen at any time. I just think at the end of the age of legends when they get too advanced it is inevitable that someone will look for a new source of power and will drill the bore. To compare it to our world, it was kind of inevitable that the atom bomb would be discovered once scientific knowledge advanced enough. If WWII would not have happened the bomb would have been discovered a few years later at most, it is just inevitable.

I don't think the pattern made her do it, I think it was inevitible it was going to happen but I wouldn't say the pattern picked her.  Unless you are ta'vern you still have free will.  The one main think about the DOs prision being drilled into is enough time must pass that people forget about the DO even exsiting.  Sooner or later it will happen again but I don't think the pattern will say "ok Bob Smith" is going to do it.  Lanfear was free to say "this seems to dangerous, I don't want to do it". Lanfear just wanted the glory that would come from the attention of her being the one along with that other guy to tap into this new power source.

[Nae'blis]

Eye of the World, Chapter 36:

It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?" (Loial to Rand)

 

In other words, you only have free will to an extent. There was no way the Pattern was going to let Lanfear not drill the Bore. It was too important to the Age Lace.

[Tasos Alexiadis]

Eye of the World, Chapter 36:

It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?" (Loial to Rand)

 

In other words, you only have free will to an extent. There was no way the Pattern was going to let Lanfear not drill the Bore. It was too important to the Age Lace.

 

It was Lanfear's choice to drill the bore due to greed. If she had made the right choice though and decided not to drill the Bore, I think another greedy person would have come along.

[MauricXe]

Long time lurker.  Two Questions:

 

(1) Why does Rand have to switch bodies with Moridin?  I mean he's now Rand "freaking" Al'thor (an unofficial title), a person who can light a pipe with his thoughts.  If he can do that, why can't he think about healing himself (side wound, left arm, other things) and think about looking like Moridin.  If he's got these wonderful new abilities, maybe the pipe's not the first time he uses them.  It would certainly explain why that older unknown lady says something like "yes, you're doing what you need to;" could be he was making himself look like Moridin and Moridin look like his old body.  

 

(2) What if the pipe thing means Rand is dreaming?  Maybe he's still in an eternal struggle with the DO in the PoD (gotta love these abbreviations on the board) or the DO won or something.  I mean it's only in that dreamland where people can control things by thinking them.  The rest of the epilogue kind of negates that it's a dream and it wouldn't be very RJish, but it would be a heck of a hook.  Kind of harkening back to St. Elsewhere.  Or forshadowing depending on whether St. Elsewhere ended before whenever RJ wrote the epilogue.

 

 

your second question is very interesting. I dont think its true but interesting

[newimperium]

So here's my take on the "killing the DO would create mindless puppets" thing:

 

1.  I understand the whole idea of the duality thing.  If that's the world that RJ decided to create, that's his prerogative.  But it doesn't mean it's a good (plausible) conclusion.  What's the difference between killing the DO and completely imprisoning him, as far as the common layperson is concerned? If the DO cannot touch the Pattern, people should not be affected by him. Therefore the end result should be the same.

 

2. If the DO is an antagonizer of the potential for evil *already* present in human hearts (as most of us thought him to be), then killing him would NOT create mindless puppets of the Light.  If, however, the Dark One IS evil itself, then I can understand how killing him would remove people's ability to choose right or wrong, since evil itself ceases to exist.  But wait a minute...  What's so wrong with that?  Would that, in fact, create a "Heaven on Earth" situation? Wouldn't that still be preferable to an endless cycle of release and imprisonment, death and destruction for all time?  I, like many others, was hoping that THIS time (the WoT that we read) was going to be different, that the cycle would be broken and true peace would come. Instead, we just see how things will eventually end up happening all over again.

 

 I personally believe in theory #1, and that Rand was deceived by his vision. Killing the DO just does not logically lead to an absence of humanity's ability to choose right or wrong, in my opinion. Maybe Rand deceived himself.  RJ was always big on perception not equalling reality; depending on the viewpoint, we might not really *see* what is happening during an event because the facts are colored by the viewer.  Rand could have ended it, but was deceived into perpetuating the cycle again, as he always does ala Roland & the Dark Tower.  This is an ending that, while not satisfying, I can accept.

[Suttree]

  Rand could have ended it, but was deceived into perpetuating the cycle again, as he always does ala Roland & the Dark Tower.

Anyone who dug in to the major themes and cosmology of this world knew that the DO would not be killed. This was merely one turning and there are no endings to the wheel unless the DO breaks the cycle. RJ was pretty clear on that long before we got to the ending of AMoL.

[AndyB]

So here's my take on the "killing the DO would create mindless puppets" thing:

 

1.  I understand the whole idea of the duality thing.  If that's the world that RJ decided to create, that's his prerogative.  But it doesn't mean it's a good (plausible) conclusion.  What's the difference between killing the DO and completely imprisoning him, as far as the common layperson is concerned? If the DO cannot touch the Pattern, people should not be affected by him. Therefore the end result should be the same.

 

2. If the DO is an antagonizer of the potential for evil *already* present in human hearts (as most of us thought him to be), then killing him would NOT create mindless puppets of the Light.  If, however, the Dark One IS evil itself, then I can understand how killing him would remove people's ability to choose right or wrong, since evil itself ceases to exist.  But wait a minute...  What's so wrong with that?  Would that, in fact, create a "Heaven on Earth" situation? Wouldn't that still be preferable to an endless cycle of release and imprisonment, death and destruction for all time?  I, like many others, was hoping that THIS time (the WoT that we read) was going to be different, that the cycle would be broken and true peace would come. Instead, we just see how things will eventually end up happening all over again.

 

 I personally believe in theory #1, and that Rand was deceived by his vision. Killing the DO just does not logically lead to an absence of humanity's ability to choose right or wrong, in my opinion. Maybe Rand deceived himself.  RJ was always big on perception not equalling reality; depending on the viewpoint, we might not really *see* what is happening during an event because the facts are colored by the viewer.  Rand could have ended it, but was deceived into perpetuating the cycle again, as he always does ala Roland & the Dark Tower.  This is an ending that, while not satisfying, I can accept.

 

1) The imprisoned DO still exists, thus the potential for evil still exists in humankind, hence freedom to choose.  The Bore allowed the DO to touch the world directly, obviating human agency.  Also, I remember some speculation that Lanfear was already on the DO's side before she opened the Bore.  She could sense the DO, so there was some exchange between the prison and the pattern, but not (presumably) an unmediated one.

 

2) Again, no choice.  A truly perfect world would be one where people have the option to choose evil but always choose good.  I must say that the metaphysics of the WoT universe are pretty unnerving.  Basically, in the absence of external forces, human beings are amoral sock-puppets.

 

Once I read the happy puppets future I realized Rand wouldn't kill the DO, but I kind of hoped he'd make it a point to hurt Shai'tan bad enough that the next time Mieren drills her metaphysical peep hole the DO will pretend to be out.

[Bregah]

If, however, the Dark One IS evil itself, then I can understand how killing him would remove people's ability to choose right or wrong, since evil itself ceases to exist.  But wait a minute...  What's so wrong with that?  Would that, in fact, create a "Heaven on Earth" situation? Wouldn't that still be preferable to an endless cycle of release and imprisonment, death and destruction for all time?

Because doing the right thing is only really noble (or whatever positive description you want to use) if you do it by choice - which means you have to have the ability to choose to be the opposite of noble.

 

Usually the noble thing is the hard thing to do, which means the non-noble thing is the easy thing to do.  That's where choice matters, because a person chooses the harder, but positive action over the easier, but negative action.  If there is no choice, and you can only do the positive, harder action, then there's nothing special about taking that course of action - because it is the only thing you can do.

 

Sacrifice is only meaningful when you have the ability to choose not to sacrifice.  Something is special (for good or bad) only when the opposite action, or even a non-action, can be chosen instead.

 

Think of a whistleblower situation.  Usually these involve someone doing something good, even though they didn't have to, and usually at some cost to themselves (loss of good job, etc).  This is only a positive thing because there was the option for that person to do something negative (do nothing and let corruption or whatever it is continue, and keep on benefitting from it).  He/she only has the opportunity to "do the right thing" because prior to that point the "wrong thing" was done by someone (maybe even that very person).

[Pinzarn]

Did I miss the body swap chapter?  Was there any description of what happened?

[Guest Kreshimi]

I guess I had a different take on Rand and his pipe at the end.  For me, it was like he was in the world of dreams.  It was HIS world of dreams.  So just like anyone accomplished in the world of dreams, if you want something, it happens.  He was in the world he wanted.  It was a very peaceful scene for me, full of resolution. 

[wRAR]

Did I miss the body swap chapter?  Was there any description of what happened?

No and no.

[Asha’man Hall]

Really glad rand didnt die, we were all expecting that he was going to die, and to everybody but a few people in the book he did die, now he can have a simple life with no responsibility, which he hasnt been able to have throughout the entire series.

[Pinzarn]

 

Long time lurker.  Two Questions:

 

(1) Why does Rand have to switch bodies with Moridin?  I mean he's now Rand "freaking" Al'thor (an unofficial title), a person who can light a pipe with his thoughts.  If he can do that, why can't he think about healing himself (side wound, left arm, other things) and think about looking like Moridin.  If he's got these wonderful new abilities, maybe the pipe's not the first time he uses them.  It would certainly explain why that older unknown lady says something like "yes, you're doing what you need to;" could be he was making himself look like Moridin and Moridin look like his old body.  

 

(2) What if the pipe thing means Rand is dreaming?  Maybe he's still in an eternal struggle with the DO in the PoD (gotta love these abbreviations on the board) or the DO won or something.  I mean it's only in that dreamland where people can control things by thinking them.  The rest of the epilogue kind of negates that it's a dream and it wouldn't be very RJish, but it would be a heck of a hook.  Kind of harkening back to St. Elsewhere.  Or forshadowing depending on whether St. Elsewhere ended before whenever RJ wrote the epilogue.

 

 

your second question is very interesting. I dont think its true but interesting

 

I think for #2 there was a bit of foreshadowing in the book.  In a couple of Perrin's PoV, it was either Lanfear or Slayer that kept mentioning that T'A'R and the waking world are not that different.  I took the context to mean that all people if "enlightened" enough could exist in one with the benefits of the other.  So for Rand, being so enlightened, has T'A'R-like powers in the waking world.

[Pinzarn]

 

Did I miss the body swap chapter?  Was there any description of what happened?

No and no.

 

That just upsets me more that the body swap occurred.  I never liked the idea, but if it was going to happened, I was hoping for some desciption of what was going on.

[Asha'man Steve]

I'm having trouble grasping a lot of the end.

 

The biggest issue I have with this whole book (the only really big glaring issue to me) is Rand's portion of the epilogue.  I just can't believe that he can finally live in peace and decides to not tell Nynaeve, Tam, Mat, or Perrin and abandons his children and Min, Elayne, and Aviendha.

 

Now, into what happened with the dark one itself.  I agree with the 'world without evil' being a horrible place.  Rand explains this by telling the Dark One that he never wins, because only the fight for something you believe in can bring out the best in people.  That implies that the best of everybody can't exist without the DO.  There would be nothing to fight for, nothing to challenge peace and make people treasure it.  So that makes sense to me.

 

What doesn't make sense is Rand's line about the Dark One never having been the issue, Alivia's role, the pipe and the finalization of the body swap.  Here are two theories from me, both somewhat crazy, I'll admit:

 

1.  Androl and Pevara gave us more insight than we'd think.  While they were linked, they entered each others' consciousness.  They became ONE PERSON.  Pevara's POV says she was able to pull back into her own body afterwards.  Is that what Rand and Moridin did, except Rand intentionally pulled back into Moridin's body instead?

 

2.  The DO exists outside the pattern and is a constant force for evil, but isn't necessarily bad.  He's like gravity, he's just contantly present.  The true source of upsetting balance is the Dragon Reborn himself.  LTT inspried many of the Forsaken.  He rejected Mieren, he was a source of fixation for Elan, Demandred seems to be completely unhinged by being 'nearly LTT'.  Sammael and Bel'al are both known to have been jealous of his power.  LTT's Aes Sedai were the ones who drilled into the Bore, craving more power.

 

We see a repeat of this in Rand.  Everywhere he goes, he breaks ties, causes war, incites jealousy, brings out both the best AND worst of the people around him.  In TGS he goes mad and nearly kills everybody atop Dragonmount, proving he could be either the destroyer or the savior.

 

This could explain why Rand wants the world to go on without the Dragon.  He WANTS the dragon to be dead in everybody's mind, because so long as he exists, the threat could come again.  The Dragon is the problem and always has been.

 

---------------------

 

Thoughts?  I know it sort of flies in the face of the good vs evil mantra this series seems to hold, but it did occur to me after putting the book down.

I think the whole Rand leaving without telling his father or nynaeve was because of the fact that the 3 girls werent sad, knowing he was alive through the bond so he needed people to be upset, needed other people to see his father and one of his best friends upset to have them believe he is really dead. further down the line, a week or a month or what have you, he could easily go to them and tell them what happened and why he needed them to believe he was dead.

[Asha'man Steve]

 

 

 Perhaps I'm wrong but if that is true, why did it allow LTT to seal the bore improperly? 

It's simply the pattern of that age. Both RJ and Herid Fel told us this:

 

LoC Ch. 18

>> "Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again."

lockquote>

 

> 

Interview: Nov 11th, 1997

Barnes and Noble Chat (Verbatim)

Brandon from Mission Viejo

Mr. Jordan, It's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

Robert Jordan

Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course, the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

This is why it was always pretty ridiculous when people claimed that this was actually the "last battle".

 

 

See what I have emboldened. Fel is stating that the Prison has to be whole again when the Pattern spins back around the Age of Legends, in order for it to be bored into again. In other words, the Bore, the faulty sealing, and Rand's perfect sealing are all part of the Pattern's plan. Thus, the Pattern made Lanfear create the Bore, even if it seemed from her perspective that she chose to.

 

If the pattern did infact force lanfear to drill the bore, then by that logic it forced all the forsaken to do as they did, eg demandred and co hating LTT for his power and love of the poeple and what not. So what happens when the cycle goes around and the dragon is reborn, most of the forsaken were killed with balefire so there is no more rebirth for them, does the pattern just pick new people and force them to do as the previous forsaken did?

[Suttree]

Well Ishy for one we know is joined to Rand's Dagon soul and frequently spun out together a la Birgitte and Gaidal. It seems they are locked in that contnuing struggle time after time.

 

As for balefire it's not the eternal death of the soul. Chosen will still be reborn although they can't be resurrected by the DO.

[Siraaj]

Body Switch Theory - right before Alanna dies, she releases the Warder bond.  Right after that, Moridin stabs his own hand to hurt Rand.  My theory is she somehow passed her warder bond to Moridin and that's how the two of them were linked together - we've explored throughout the series women bonding men and vice versa, women with women (elayne and birgitte) and extensively two people bonding each other, but never a man bonded to another man who can channel, both of whom can channel, and the effect of that.

 

Perhaps they were linked in a way that allowed them to both feel one another (so what one felt, the other felt) and also allowed for the body switch - thoughts?