Question about Egwene from someone only on book 5

[tuesdae666]

One thing you have to understand about Egwene is that she is extremely driven. Whatever she does, she MUST do well. This includes learning to Dream. 

 

She set out to be Aes Sedai, and (This is Egwene's subconscious) by golly, she WILL BE AES SEDAI!!!!!!!! . She will stand for everything an Aes Sedai MUST be, including - if need be - tying strings to Rand. She is willing to give up everything in pursuit of her goal - preserving the White Tower and the Aes Sedai for Tarmon Gaidon. 

[EmperorAllspice]

I still think Egwene would've benefitted from a more active and direct and competent singular opponent (like Mat and the Gholam and Perrin and Slayer)

 

I find characters insufferable when they win too often. During the war law scene for instance. She outclassed everyone there so hard I found it impossible to side with her over the others. She came off as a bully rather than intelligent and capable.

 

Take Death Note for instance. Light might have been manipulative and a master schemer. but he was sufferable because he had an opponent who was just as good as he was

 

I had a similar problem with Dany in A Song Of Ice And Fire. reading an entire book (2 books really) that's just her winning victory after victory after victory with nothing to competently oppose her left me not giving a crap about what was happening in her story

[Rhienne]

I still think Egwene would've benefitted from a more active and direct and competent singular opponent (like Mat and the Gholam and Perrin and Slayer)

 

I find characters insufferable when they win too often. During the war law scene for instance. She outclassed everyone there so hard I found it impossible to side with her over the others. She came off as a bully rather than intelligent and capable.

 

Take Death Note for instance. Light might have been manipulative and a master schemer. but he was sufferable because he had an opponent who was just as good as he was

 

I had a similar problem with Dany in A Song Of Ice And Fire. reading an entire book (2 books really) that's just her winning victory after victory after victory with nothing to competently oppose her left me not giving a crap about what was happening in her story

I agree with you on this, but not sure how it could have been done differently.  Egwene's main arc was reuniting the Aes Sedai and preparing the White Tower for the Last Battle.  Due to the fractured mess the Aes Sedai (and their reputation) was in when Egwene was raised to Amyrlin, sorting this out had to take a big chunk of her story up.  One thing I think might have worked would have been to set Mesaana up against her more directly.  As it played out, it just seemed like RJ/BS realised that, hey, Egwene had better kill off Mesaana as the Last Battle is coming round fast.  The scene didn't have much impact for me, because there was no relationship between Egwene and Mesaana like there was between Rand and many of the male Forsaken, and Nynaeve and Moghedian.

[EmperorAllspice]

Actually, I think Mogheiden sounded like a much better fit for being Egwene's rival than Nynaeve's. Nynaeve sounds like she should've had, say, Semirhage maybe (since they're both master healers and considered the best there is in their respective time frames.)

 

It always bothered me how the master of espionage and stealth. The woman who's by far the weakest of the Forsaken and always has been. The woman KNOWN for being a complete coward would start going after a character like Nynaeve so unsubtly. She was set up as a master of Tel'Aran'Rhiod who surpassed even Lanfear. Wouldn't someone like that take greater offence at someone matching her Dreaming abilities. Since that's the one place she might almost consider herself safe in?

[Suttree]

Actually, I think Mogheiden sounded like a much better fit for being Egwene's rival than Nynaeve's. Nynaeve sounds like she should've had, say, Semirhage maybe (since they're both master healers and considered the best there is in their respective time frames.)

 

It always bothered me how the master of espionage and stealth. The woman who's by far the weakest of the Forsaken and always has been. The woman KNOWN for being a complete coward would start going after a character like Nynaeve so unsubtly. She was set up as a master of Tel'Aran'Rhiod who surpassed even Lanfear. Wouldn't someone like that take greater offence at someone matching her Dreaming abilities. Since that's the one place she might almost consider herself safe in?

Again they had an OP wrestling match. Dream abilities didn't really factor in.

[EmperorAllspice]

 

Actually, I think Mogheiden sounded like a much better fit for being Egwene's rival than Nynaeve's. Nynaeve sounds like she should've had, say, Semirhage maybe (since they're both master healers and considered the best there is in their respective time frames.)

 

It always bothered me how the master of espionage and stealth. The woman who's by far the weakest of the Forsaken and always has been. The woman KNOWN for being a complete coward would start going after a character like Nynaeve so unsubtly. She was set up as a master of Tel'Aran'Rhiod who surpassed even Lanfear. Wouldn't someone like that take greater offence at someone matching her Dreaming abilities. Since that's the one place she might almost consider herself safe in?

Again they had an OP wrestling match. Dream abilities didn't really factor in.

 

I know that. What I meant was that she shouldn't have cared. She's weak. She's always been weak. You'd think she'd be used to it by now. Especially since she's KNOWN FOR BEING A COWARD.

 

One area which she's exceptionally gifted in is Tel'aran'rhiod. So to me it would make more sense for her to freak the way she did at Nynaeve towards someone who threatened those abilities of hers.

 

That's why I think Egwene makes far more sense as a rival to Mogheiden than Nynaeve does. But that's just me

[Suttree]

 

 

Actually, I think Mogheiden sounded like a much better fit for being Egwene's rival than Nynaeve's. Nynaeve sounds like she should've had, say, Semirhage maybe (since they're both master healers and considered the best there is in their respective time frames.)

 

It always bothered me how the master of espionage and stealth. The woman who's by far the weakest of the Forsaken and always has been. The woman KNOWN for being a complete coward would start going after a character like Nynaeve so unsubtly. She was set up as a master of Tel'Aran'Rhiod who surpassed even Lanfear. Wouldn't someone like that take greater offence at someone matching her Dreaming abilities. Since that's the one place she might almost consider herself safe in?

Again they had an OP wrestling match. Dream abilities didn't really factor in.

 

I know that. What I meant was that she shouldn't have cared. She's weak. She's always been weak. You'd think she'd be used to it by now. Especially since she's KNOWN FOR BEING A COWARD.

 

Yes but Nyn is just a current age "savage" after all.

[Rhienne]

I don't think Moghedian realised how talented Egwene was in TAR.  I remember one comment (in FoH?) about her being surprised that Egwene had been able to break through the dream scenario she had trapped her in (set in the Two Rivers), but she doesn't seem to give it much thought.  And most of her pursuit of Nynaeve is petty revenge and spitefulness because Nynaeve had bettered her in Tanchico.  Prior to that she didn't have a personal vendetta against her.

 

I do agree that, thematically, it would have made more sense for Nynaeve to go up against Semirhage, and Egwene against Moghedian.  I would have liked to see Egwene battle Moghedian in TAR.  As it was we didn't get to see too much of Moghedian's skills in TAR, and I always felt that the battle with Mesaana was a foregone conclusions because Egwene was more powerful in TAR.

[cmo999]

hMM. I never found a character to be annoying in that way, I always found that their little misunderstandings and misgivings makes them more realistic characters.  Isn't that what people are like in real life after all? No one sees from the same eyes.

[EmperorAllspice]

hMM. I never found a character to be annoying in that way, I always found that their little misunderstandings and misgivings makes them more realistic characters.  Isn't that what people are like in real life after all? No one sees from the same eyes.

It's the fact that every single woman is a massive jerk is the problem. At least that's my problem. The jerkiness can be ok when it's treated with irony. Like Nynaeve. The story is aware that she's a jerk. With Egwene she acts like a jerk but the story doesn't call her out on it.

 

Subjective, I know. But that's always how I saw it.

[Rhienne]

 

hMM. I never found a character to be annoying in that way, I always found that their little misunderstandings and misgivings makes them more realistic characters.  Isn't that what people are like in real life after all? No one sees from the same eyes.

It's the fact that every single woman is a massive jerk is the problem. At least that's my problem. The jerkiness can be ok when it's treated with irony. Like Nynaeve. The story is aware that she's a jerk. With Egwene she acts like a jerk but the story doesn't call her out on it.

 

Subjective, I know. But that's always how I saw it.

 

Nynaeve also gets humbled numerous times throughout the story, and learns/is forced to learn to change her ways.  She goes from being the most powerful person in her village as Wisdom, to one of many Aes Sedai.  Every time she is/we are told she is best at something, someone else surpasses or equals her (e.g. her strength in channeling is surpassed by Sharina and Alivia, and matched by Talan(sp?), her ability at Healing is bettered by Sumeko, she Heals stilling, something which Flinn also figures out on his own).  She is brought down multiple pegs by the AS, by the Athan'an Miere, by Egwene, and by Cadsuane.  By the end of her character development she understands that position/influence/power are not important to her, and are not necessarily forces for good.  She knows what is important to her - caring for those she loves, loyalty to her friends, and healing and is secure in her place in the world.

 

Egwene's trajectory is the opposite of this.  Her power increases from being the innkeeper's daughter, to learning she can channel, to becoming the most skilled Light-side character in TaR (Perrin may be equal/better but Egwene only encounters him once, so within the people she interacts with, she is the strongest), and the Amyrlin Seat, essentially the most powerful woman in the world (maybe tied with Tuon).  She is opposed but never humbled.  She never sees others surpassing her in anything.  By the end of her character development she has somewhat lost the original Egwene (I have started re-reading after AMoL came out, and the girl in tEotW is almost unrecognisable from the Amyrlin Seat in ToM), and has her entire identity invested in being the Amyrling Seat, or the personifcation of the White Tower.  The WT needs her, and it makes her a stronger leader, but she loses some of her humanity, and is in a position where she can't be be humbled without damaging her reputation with the AS, which does make her less likeable and harder to empathise with, imo.

[EmperorAllspice]

I haven't gotten that far but isn't she kinda sorta humbled when she's captured by the White Tower? I'm not aware of how she reacts to the situation or if that's even that big a deal for her.

[EmperorAllspice]

 By the end of her character development she has somewhat lost the original Egwene (I have started re-reading after AMoL came out, and the girl in tEotW is almost unrecognisable from the Amyrlin Seat in ToM), and has her entire identity invested in being the Amyrling Seat, or the personifcation of the White Tower.  The WT needs her, and it makes her a stronger leader, but she loses some of her humanity, and is in a position where she can't be be humbled without damaging her reputation with the AS, which does make her less likeable and harder to empathise with, imo.

To add to this: Rand also becomes unrecognizable as Rand by about halfway through the series. But because he's a massive idiot and prone to making human mistakes even as he gets colder and colder, he maintains relateability and likeability. At least for me. He's more fallable and suffers more humanizing defeats

[Rhienne]

I haven't gotten that far but isn't she kinda sorta humbled when she's captured by the White Tower? I'm not aware of how she reacts to the situation or if that's even that big a deal for her.

Yes, i suppose she is humbled in Elaida's eyes, but I don't think Egwene thinks of herself as humbled, partially because she still thinks of herself as the Amyrlin Seat, partly because the way Elaida treats her actually shows that Elaida sees her as a threat to her authority, and also because

Egwene doesn't take a knock in the eyes of her followers, and goes back to the same position of authority after this episode.

.  This contrasts with Rand as

he becomes dark, cold, etc. prior to VoG where he then has his epiphany, realises he needs 'laughter and tears' and sees the error of his previous ways, and comes out very different after this experience

, and Nynaeve, who once knocked down never regains her former standing, e.g. Egwene is always her superior following the episode in TaR in tFoH, Sumeko semi-smirks about surpassing Nynaeve at Healing, the Yellow Sisters don't really have any respect for her even when she has Healed stilling, the Athan'an Miere think less and less of her, etc.

[BoredForLife]

I used to find Eqwene way too annoying especially after she was taken by the Seanchan. Buuuuuut for me around book 6 she does get a little bit better. Just a little.  

Still one of my least favourite characters along with Nynaeve for pretty much the same reasons.

[Suttree]

 

  She is opposed but never humbled.  

 You wouldn't say her time with the Seanchan fits the bill?

[Rhienne]

 

 

  She is opposed but never humbled.  

 You wouldn't say her time with the Seanchan fits the bill?

 

Yes, I did miss that one.  I would say that it is before her main character growth begins, and also that it is a temporary (albeit very unpleasant) humbling.  Once she is freed from being damane she is back to the same position she was in before, both in title (back as a Novice), and in the eyes of the people she interacts with during the series, e.g. Elayne, Nynaeve, Siuan, the AS.  

[jedman67]

i found nynave and elayne to be excessively whiny and less likable from tanchico and onwards. Elayne becomes humanized in my eyes once she starts acting like a future queen (although Birgette can be annoying as well) but overall her likableness improves. 

For Nyn, i find myself sympathizing with her, but her inability to act like an adult - always throwing a tantrum, always believing she's right about everything, etc, just gets irritating. Moiraine from NS can be annoying also (New Spring could easily have benefited from better editing!) but the lesson she learns as a novice and as an apprentice is that 'what can be endured, must be endured' - a lesson that both the wondergirls need desperately (and a paddling as well!). Egwene seems to learn that lesson in her captivity in the WT (mostly) but towards the end i feel she's written as Woman-Jesus.