Not In The Book Discussion (Full Spoilers)

[BFG]

Whatever works for you?

[Ian Nag]

I thought I would address the voice and whether or not it is the dark one or creator. I think it is both. What people seem to forget is that in TEOTW the voice is also italicized. In AMOL I think the first the voice appears in AMOL it is the creator and it was imply forgotten to be italicized (someone should ask BS about this and see what he says). Then after that it is the Dark One which is obvious because he refers to Rand as his enemy.   

[Basel Gill]

 

One minor thing I would have liked to see, would have been Lan's reaction when Mat told him that Jain Farstrider died clean.

Agree.

 

This. It was the one thing I came to the spoiler board to see if anyone had mentioned it yet.

[RugbyPlayingAshaman]

I don't think Alanna is Black Ajah. I also don't think she was under Compulsion to Bond Rand; she seems solidly on the Light Side, and is attracted to the Two Rivers Men - she also wanted to Bond Perrin, so it seems that she is prone to getting caught up in t'a'veren twisting. What I think Verin's letter said to her was that the Shadow was targeting her in order for Moridin to use her Bond as a way to destroy Rand. It might have also stated that she find someone to pass Ihvon's bond to before she was captured (Owein, her other Warder, died in the Two Rivers) as a mercy to him. Verin might have also revealed that the leader of the Shadow's forces had a way to track Rand, and this could be used to track her down. I think she left to try and hide by changing her location as much as possible. Also, her reaction when Moridin deals her a killing blow seems completely unlike something a Black Ajah Sister or a channeler forced to the Shadow would do, and when she releases Rand, it seems to me as if she expected that this might be what was required of her. 

 

Anyone else think along these lines?

[RugbyPlayingAshaman]

 

 

Anyone disapointed the whole suldams being able to channel didnt rip the Seanchan empire apart like I felt it was insinuated...

 

Didn't even really cause a ripple in the Empire.

 

I feel like the inclusion of that sort of angle, Seanchan reformation so to speak, like having the Hawkwing/Mat conversation for instance, detracted from the momentum of pivotal plot points, and undermined the strength of the narrative.

 

Sort of like, oh crap Olver blew the horn, here come the heros-rally time! Wait, wait hold on lets pause in the middle of that, and have a throwaway aside moment so we can say later ah ha! Hawkwing will talk to Tuon! Something will happen!..er...ah...nope.

 

IMHO I think this would have been a great moment, on the editing and writing side, to change the order of events a bit. Maybe after this conversation where Hawkwing reveals that his hatred of Aes Sedai was actually Shadow-inspired and lead to more destruction than anything, Tuon has a revelation and orders the damane and sul'dam into Circles with Aes Sedai and help push back the Sharans on two fronts. Then after that effort is rebuffed, Egwene could have had her big moment, after Bonding Leilwin and sending her back through a gateway, where she kills herself to take out Taim and the Sharans. It would have given a good character moment to Tuon presaging a reconciliation of sorts with the Tower, given a bit of a moment to Hawkwing where he gets some character development from beyond the grave and built up Egwene to really have this be the climactic battle. Then, go directly from that battlefield to Birgitte saving Elayne, and have this battle be wrapped up, giving some more time to Mat, Aviendha and Perrins' final confrontations.

[BFG]

I'm pretty sure the a'dam prevents the suldam/damane from being able to join circles.  also I think that the fate of the Seanchan Empire was always meant to be left in the air.  As it is there are enough pieces that want change, that are capable of causing change in play (namely Mat/Avi/Min) that it's possible to see many ways for the future to change, but their's still uncertainty, especially given BS's recent comments about the Tuon/Hawkwing conversation.

[RugbyPlayingAshaman]

I'm pretty sure the a'dam prevents the suldam/damane from being able to join circles.  also I think that the fate of the Seanchan Empire was always meant to be left in the air.  As it is there are enough pieces that want change, that are capable of causing change in play (namely Mat/Avi/Min) that it's possible to see many ways for the future to change, but their's still uncertainty, especially given BS's recent comments about the Tuon/Hawkwing conversation.

 

Sorry, not sure if you are replying to me: I meant to indicate that Tuon would have ordered the sul'dam to remove the a'dam from the damane, and ordered both to learn and enter Links lead by Aes Sedai. But that's in my super idealistic hope for how that wrapped up; not necessarily how it would have realistically been carried out.

 

While the fate of the overall Empire on the other side of the Ocean was meant to be open, I think there was supposed to be some sort of change in how Tuon's Empire approached damane compared to their homelands. As it is, the adventures in the Westlands come across as a footnote in Tuon's quest for consolidation since she really hasn't changed all that much and still follows philosophies she held before, and I'm not sure that fits with the tone of the rest of the series.

[BFG]

Fair enough about the a'dam.  It's an interesting thought about how much power Tuon has over her subjects thoughts and feelings.  We've seen damane scream to be collared again, but we've also got (I think Mats) impression that Tuons words stopped Selucia from feeling afraid.  I wonder if she'd be obeyed if she was to give the order, I can't help think it would take more time.

 

I think the big problem is that RJ had planned Outriggers based around Tuon & Mat, as such their story didn't need to be wrapped up in the WoT, and in a sense WoT was setting up the story.  From that perspective the storyline didn't need wrapping up.  Equally at this stage I don't care about Seanchan, so leaving Seanchan up in the air doesn't intrigue me.  Leaving the future of Randland in the air, in a way that is believable does leave me intrigued (but that's based on the outrigger novels existing). 

[Ian Nag]

I have a question about the male a'dam. since ina normal female one the sul'dam also has to be able to channel wouldnt the oe controling a man have to be able to channel saidan?

[Asha'man Steve]

I have a question about the male a'dam. since ina normal female one the sul'dam also has to be able to channel wouldnt the oe controling a man have to be able to channel saidan?

The original male adam was built for the dragon, it could be used by anyone who could channel, just like when semirhage and one of the aes sedai captured rand at the farm house

[Suttree]

The original male adam was built for the dragon,

The original was made during the breaking to control insane male channelers. Had nothing to do with the DRagon.

[Ian Nag]

thanks for the answers!

[wRAR]

I don't think Alanna is Black Ajah. I also don't think she was under Compulsion to Bond Rand; she seems solidly on the Light Side, and is attracted to the Two Rivers Men - she also wanted to Bond Perrin, so it seems that she is prone to getting caught up in t'a'veren twisting. What I think Verin's letter said to her was that the Shadow was targeting her in order for Moridin to use her Bond as a way to destroy Rand. It might have also stated that she find someone to pass Ihvon's bond to before she was captured (Owein, her other Warder, died in the Two Rivers) as a mercy to him. Verin might have also revealed that the leader of the Shadow's forces had a way to track Rand, and this could be used to track her down. I think she left to try and hide by changing her location as much as possible. Also, her reaction when Moridin deals her a killing blow seems completely unlike something a Black Ajah Sister or a channeler forced to the Shadow would do, and when she releases Rand, it seems to me as if she expected that this might be what was required of her. 

 

Anyone else think along these lines?

 

Brandon recently said that Alanna is not Black so that clears up many questions.

[Mithan]

Am I the only one who thinks that Rand wasn't meant to have any "super powers"?  He was the male equivalent to Lanfear and Alivia.  He represented the peak of One Power ability, but was not very much stronger than Logain or Taim or Demandred themselves.  I always took it that most of his extra "strength" came from LTT's memories and training which didn't increase his raw strength by much but merely allowed him to weave faster, smarter, and in different ways.  A very clear advantage.

By the very end when he's actually fighting the DO it is clear that he is stepping outside the pattern and doing some unique things here, but I dont think he was meant to have any kind of miraculous or special powers prior to this point.  He was ta'averen and his ta'averen abilities manifested themselves at first through luck and then through the skies opening for him, etc as is explained in aMoL.  I feel like anyone could have walked up and stepped into the bore and stepped outside the pattern like Rand - they just would have been crushed by the DO immediately whereas Rand's soul had the strength, determination, and knowledge to fight back.  THAT was his super power; regular attributes that men and women possessed that Rand held up with because he was chosen for the job.

 

I actually feel like Brandon messed this up pretty significantly and showed Rand to appear beyond a normal mortal when in reality he was supposed to be entirely mortal.  We had no hints of any kind of Light powers or anything prior to Brandon taking over and it feels like his desire to show the newly sane Rand off as the majestic savior went overboard.  He was not supposed to have any weave of light surrounding his mind, he was not supposed to make darkfriends go insane watching him channel Light (wtf was him channeling Light even about??), and he was not supposed to be able to spot darkfriends with new amazing "Light Powers".  Hence all of the slight corrections in the last book.  It feels like the whole purpose of the story was to show that Rand WAS human and didn't have anything special about him - he just had responsibilities and took it like a man.  That was really a primary theme throughout the books.  And then Brandon took over and made him some kind of demi-god with "power levels" that could wipe out an entire army alone.

 

Anyone else feel this way about Rand and all his extra power in these last three books?  The more I dwell on this the more I feel like the whole situation with Rand and his "power" really got out of hand in these last couple books.

 

 

I feel Rand was tempered well enough actually.