Flying with the Power

[Thor]

I did not say Nynaeve is crap, I said she is normal strengthed, at least I did before the lanfear/cyndane thread got majorly modded.

 

Normal is hardly good. Where are these thousands and thousands that you talk about?

[Master of the Blades]

There is one instance on the BWB where Aes Sedai were able to defy the gravitational fields. The Sharom at Collam Dam was a large sphere suspended in Air. It was done to show that it could be done.

 

There is no evidence that any channeler can fly. We do have a POV from Rand that it cannot be done.

[SBoydW]

I said she is normal strengthed,

 

Maybe when compared to the majority of the people from the AoL yes. But in the Third age she is the strongest of the Third Age women, if not that in the top 3.

 

Where are these thousands and thousands

 

The kin? I think they said their numbers were some where in the 1800 range, there are close to 1,000 aes sedai, in saildar there are close to a thousand novices, there are all the Wise Ones, possibly the largest group channelers in the world if commbined. the Damanae, and there. We don't even know how many of those sharan channelers there are. Then the Sul'dam who are potential channelers. Then the Asha'man.

 

 

There are your thousands and thousands of channelers

[Thor]

I remember someone else did a summary of the numbers and they were not as high as the ones you say, don't have the link though. But I stand corrected, someone got the links? :?:

[Graendals favourite]

If there were a way to counter the affect gravity has on your body' date=' which would decrease the earth's hold on you, then it would be as simple as a good strong jump and a stray gust of wind here or there. I know Im going on a tangent, but I just wanted to put this out there to see if anybody would take this idea and run.

 

Any takers?[/quote']

 

You mean some kind of graviton shield? If it is possible, it is possible. Have to be careful with it though, the earth is hardly still. At least it isn't known that anything can affect gravity, and though I'm hardly an expert, I understand there's no one on the planet who really understands gravity. Gravitons are massless particles that don't respond to the other interactions either, and probably interact through the normal QM principle that if something is possible it happens, but really this question goes very complicated very quickly. Simply, in light of modern physics, I can't say, but it would be quite an achievement.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Let's say a person weighs 70kg, to go to 100m off the ground, you need about 68698 Joules assuming that the ascent is ballistic (rough approx).

 

Detonation of one kg of TNT is 4.184 x 10^6 Joules. So only 1.64 x 10^(-2) kg that's 16.4 g of TNT is needed to blow a person up 100m.

 

Please supply some sources for those numbers. I would like to be thorough when I crush you. And I invite you to get 16.4 g of TNT and try that theory out.

 

There is one instance on the BWB where Aes Sedai were able to defy the gravitational fields. The Sharom at Collam Dam was a large sphere suspended in Air. It was done to show that it could be done.

 

Yes, and (agreeing with your point, Master o' the Blades) they didn't use the Power, they used massive magnetic fields.

 

I remember someone else did a summary of the numbers and they were not as high as the ones you say, don't have the link though. But I stand corrected, someone got the links?

 

Yep, I sure do:

 

(From A Crown of Swords, chapter 31 Mashiara)

 

"At present, there are one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three names on the roll."

 

That was Reanne Corly to Elayne, saying how many Kin there are.

 

(From New Spring, chapter 3 Practice)

 

The Tower had been built to house three thousand Aes Sedai, but only four hundred and twenty-three were in residence at the moment, with perhaps twice as many more scattered across the nations

 

423 times 3 equals 1269. So, there are approximately 1200 Aes Sedai. Plus, in The Path of Daggers, chapter 30 Beginnings, there are almost a thousand novices with the Salidar Aes Sedai.

 

So the total associated with the White Tower, once Egwene integrates the Kin, will be approximately 4,000.

 

That doesn't even count the Asha'man (approx. 500 as of the prologue to Winter's Heart), Windfinders, damane, and Aiel Wise Ones. I suppose you would even have to include the Ayyad. So, Thor, yes, there are thousands of channelers.

 

As far as Nynaeve is concerned, she was a match for Moghedien before she even reached her full strength. So, you saying she is "normal" is ludicrous. But that is "normal" for you.

[SBoydW]

Yep, I sure do:

 

(From A Crown of Swords, chapter 31 Mashiara)

 

Quote:

"At present, there are one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three names on the roll."

 

 

That was Reanne Corly to Elayne, saying how many Kin there are.

 

(From New Spring, chapter 3 Practice)

 

Quote:

The Tower had been built to house three thousand Aes Sedai, but only four hundred and twenty-three were in residence at the moment, with perhaps twice as many more scattered across the nations

 

 

423 times 3 equals 1269. So, there are approximately 1200 Aes Sedai. Plus, in The Path of Daggers, chapter 30 Beginnings, there are almost a thousand novices with the Salidar Aes Sedai.

 

So the total associated with the White Tower, once Egwene integrates the Kin, will be approximately 4,000.

 

That doesn't even count the Asha'man (approx. 500 as of the prologue to Winter's Heart), Windfinders, damane, and Aiel Wise Ones. I suppose you would even have to include the Ayyad. So, Thor, yes, there are thousands of channelers.

 

As far as Nynaeve is concerned, she was a match for Moghedien before she even reached her full strength. So, you saying she is "normal" is ludicrous. But that is "normal" for you.

 

Thanks for teh refernces Iwas to lazy to look up.... though my memory was pretty dang close.... 8)

[Thor]

I don't need to give the source of my figures in the calculation, they can easily be found in everyday life, believe it or don't.

 

If you persist to believe that Nynaeve is "strong" then there is nothing I can say.

 

Thanks for the numbers of channelers by the way.

 

About the Collam Daan (sp?), they did use the power. And who's to say that you can't generate/manipulate magnetic fields using the One Power?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't need to give the source of my figures in the calculation, they can easily be found in everyday life, believe it or don't.

 

You encounter the joule-output statistics of TNT in everyday life? Are you a bomb specialist or something? Seriously, Thor, if you're going to make unsupported statements, at least admit they're unsupported.

 

About the Collam Daan (sp?), they did use the power. And who's to say that you can't generate/manipulate magnetic fields using the One Power?

 

At the Collam Daan, they researched ways to use the One Power. When they built the Sharom, they used the fruits of their research, but not the Power.

 

Let me quote: (this is called backing your arguments up, Thor)

 

The process that enabled the Sharom, or floating sphere of the Collam Daan, to hover high above the university, was discovered and refined through the use of the One Power, but the sphere was built by normal people, and suspended through use of the world's own magnetic and gravitational fields.

 

That's from the BWB, page 34.

 

Please note the parts I emphasized in bold. The One Power was used for research, but NOT in construction. They used the world's magnetic and gravitational fields, because the amount of the One Power it would take to suspend an entire research station is insane.

 

If you persist to believe that Nynaeve is "strong" then there is nothing I can say.

'

 

And if you persist in not believing what the author writes, there's nothing anyone else can say.

 

But here. Name ... lets see ... ten women in the whole world who are stronger than Nynaeve. If shes in the top ten out of thousands, that would qualify as "strong". So go for it. I'll even give you the first few.

 

Alivia

Cyndane (probably)

Sharina Melloy (when she reaches her full strength)

Talaan

Graendal (maybe)

Semirhage (maybe)

Mesaana (big maybe)

 

There, I gave you seven out of ten (3 of which are maybes). All you have to find are three more! Good luck.

[Thor]

I don't need to give the source of my figures in the calculation' date=' they can easily be found in everyday life, believe it or don't. [/quote']

 

You encounter the joule-output statistics of TNT in everyday life? Are you a bomb specialist or something? Seriously, Thor, if you're going to make unsupported statements, at least admit they're unsupported.

 

 

Ever heard of google or wikipedia?

 

And where does this Nynaeve hasn't reached her full strength thing comes from? Did Nynaeve herself say something when she faced Moghedian? I can't recall, tell me where to look. :?:

 

Don't forget that grandmother in Salidar, there are a few others, check out wotmania.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ever heard of google or wikipedia?

 

If thats where you got it, why is it so hard to show me? Just put the link in your message. Very simple.

 

And where does this Nynaeve hasn't reached her full strength thing comes from? Did Nynaeve herself say something when she faced Moghedian? I can't recall, tell me where to look.

 

:lol: So you're insisting I reference MY claims now, but you're not willing to reference yours, hmmmm?

 

Fortunately, I can. Let's see if you can do the same.

 

Try this: http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=75

 

It ranks the top female channelers and gives reasons for the rankings (from the books), including mentioning the fact that Nynaeve was not at full strength when she fought Moghedien (because she had only known she could channel for less than a year, and it takes years to develop your full strength in channeling).

[Thor]

That's the list I was refering to. But it just says that "it is before Nynaeve would have reached her full strength". That I disagree, as a wilder, Nynaeve has been channeling longer than we think, I think she has long since reached her full strength.

The page doesn't tell us why they think Nynaeve hasn't reached her full strength either, it just says it.

 

And since you are so nice, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(energy), scroll down to magnitude of 10^6, you'll find one kg of TNT.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Thank you for supplying your source. Now, lets see where it takes us.

 

The same chart you quote says that 1 joule would lift a small apple (102 g) one meter off the ground. Lets take your 70 kg figure for a human, which means that it takes 68.627 joules to lift that person one meter, and 68627 to lift him/her 1000 meters. Amazingly, that is roughly equal to the number you came up with (except you had it for 100 m, but we'll pass on that).

 

Now ... there he/she is, 1000 m up. What is going to keep him/her there? You would have to constantly apply the same amount of energy. And how will you control the direction of the energy? You have to contain its output using more energy. Containing and focusing energy requires greater energy. These are some of the thing you're not taking into account.

 

Also, you have to control the landing. Managing a controlled descent is going to require more energy too. And, unless you're going to let the energy rip you apart, you have to protect yourself from it, which requires more energy.

 

In short, flying requires more energy than just "lifting". Your calculations fail to take that complexity into account. If your calculations were complete, we could all put propellers on our bicycles and fly everywhere.

 

The fact that Jordan, a physicist by education, says they can't do it, should be indicative to you.

 

But, you'll believe what you like.

 

So, I give up.

[vegetattack15]

Don't give up, just give up trying to focus on the why it can't be done and focus on how it could be done. What about creating a hot air balloon with the power.

[SBoydW]

Don't give up, just give up trying to focus on the why it can't be done and focus on how it could be done.

 

That's the thing. The way for it to be done had been invented, then lost, and now no one knows how to rebuild/operate it.

[rrmike]

Not sure how much oversight of the WOT RPG RJ had but flying is listed I believe as a lost weave or lost talent in the RPG.

 

Oh and for everyone who says you can't lift someone while they lift you that doesn't apply. For it to it would indicate an Aes Sedai couldn't lift anything she couldn't physically lift. Using the power to move something has nothing to do with your own physical being. Otherwise if you tried to hold something back with air it could push you instead.

 

Since it doesn't appear to, the weaves must not be physically connected to the channeler.

 

Anyway it is fiction after all and if line of sight is the only limit to the range of weaves, lifting someone only so far is an arbitrary thing RJ decided to put into his books and that's that.

 

Oh yeah, and because the Forsaken didn't know how to do it doesn't mean anything. They didn't know how to heal stilling/gentling either I don't believe. Could be wrong on this one.

[Graendals favourite]

Oh and for everyone who says you can't lift someone while they lift you that doesn't apply. For it to it would indicate an Aes Sedai couldn't lift anything she couldn't physically lift. Using the power to move something has nothing to do with your own physical being. Otherwise if you tried to hold something back with air it could push you instead.

 

It doesn't imply that necessarily. One thing with channelling seems to be that the channeller does not interact with the power, there is the source, and the object. That is, the channeller cannot directly affect himself by channelling, only his surroundings. And yes, there are no physical connection.

 

However, I wouldn't want to call the rules arbitrary, I think I makes perfect sense that there are rules. I'll just go on with this to make clear what I mean. The things done such as lifting seem simple, but it is not, really. I take it it is done by wrapping the person in solid air and then lifting this, or is it that simple? A bridge or a shield is simpler, it will merely be solid air attached to something so it will not fall, or maintained there in the same manner it was made. But moving it, how is it moved? There must be some reference point from which it is moved. It could be like with Travelling, that the moving is done with respect to the Pattern itself. Must be that, it can't be the ground or normal air or anything like that. So perhaps the rule is about how much the channeller is able to deviate something from where it can naturally be in the Pattern.

 

That would also allow the physics to hold, the connection would be to the pattern, thus momentum is conserved. Cause playing with the conservation laws as fundamental as conservation of momentum would really have many, many consequences. Deriving quantum mechanics, that, as I recall, pops out of the equations almost from the start.

 

So to return to the first, since it isn't any different for a system of two people to be lifting itself than one person to be lifting himself, it simply cannot work. The reason may be that one cannot attach the necessary reference points to the pattern, that the people can't both be bending each other's threads at the same time. I'm simply very uncomfortable with the thought, I'm sure it just can't happen, though of course I am very attached to the workings of this world, the Pattern may work differently.. :)

[SBoydW]

They didn't know how to heal stilling/gentling either I don't believe.

 

It never says, but I believe that Semirhage, knew how to heal stilling/gentling. In the Age of Legends it was said that anything short of death could be healed, and Semirhage was the best there was at healing.

 

Oh and for everyone who says you can't lift someone while they lift you that doesn't apply. For it to it would indicate an Aes Sedai couldn't lift anything she couldn't physically lift.

 

No. What it means is that she couldn't lift someone else while she is being held in the air by the power. And most of the Aes Sedai out there probably couldn't physically lift someone more than a couple inches of the ground anyways.

[Thor]

AoL channelers didn't know how to heal stilling, I'm sure.

 

In one of the forsaken povs someone was thinking about these primitive, backward something somethings and then went on to comment on the warder bond and healing the severed and how they were thought to be impossible.

I think that was actually Semirhage herself when torturing the captured AS, can't remember clearly though.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It never says, but I believe that Semirhage, knew how to heal stilling/gentling. In the Age of Legends it was said that anything short of death could be healed, and Semirhage was the best there was at healing.

 

Yeah, sorry bro, Semirhage didn't know how to Heal stilling.