[Regimental Book Discussion] The Finns

[Tyler Glembo]

Exactly the case.  

 

I have been wondering the following: Mat believes that the Finn's are "in his head" and looking through is eyes, feasting on his memories, etc.  Is there any indication this is true or is it just Mat being paranoid?

[BFG]

I don't know.

 

I think it's an assumption Mat makes when he realises that he has memories of people dying outside of the Tower. Logically therefore the Finns couldn't have taken the memories from when they were inside the Tower, so the inference is that they 'rode' along afterwards. On the other hand, that could be the price that was paid by those (ie future stuff) whereas it's possible that Mat paid with his own memories made until that point, then the hanging (and associated shock/pain), then his eye (and associated shock/pain).

[Jeannaisais]

I think Mat's a bit paranoid. I mean, when you read a chapter from his point of view (at least this how the last chapter from his point of view was that I read in FoH), he's constantly thinking about the dominoe of events. If I do this, then this will happen so I can't because if I do then everything they said will come true. It's almost like he's fighting against them, ya know?

[Davrick]

So is the dice from his tavernness or a side effect from the Finns? I don't think he started noticing them until after visiting them.

[Tyler Glembo]

I would expect the dice to be ta'veren.  Similar to Perrin and the wolves.  Mat bends chance as ta'veren and that is his personal symbol of his power.

[Jeannaisais]

And he always liked gambling, he just got luckier as his ta'veren got stronger I think

[Tyler Glembo]

By the way, I found Mat's thoughts on whether or not the Band would exist were it not for the Ael/El Finn and thought I'd share.  This comes from KoD so I will put it in a spoiler just in case...

 

 

 

 

"He laughed mirthlessly.  Blood and bloody ashes.  The ring was a carver's try-piece, bought only because it stuck on his finger; he would give up those memories of Hawkwing's face along with every other old memory, if it would get the bloody snakes out of his head; and yet those things had gained him a wife.  The Band of the Red Hand would never have existed without those old memories of battles."

 

 

 

[F Horn of Valere]

Spoiler from ToM

 

I just finished my reread this week, finishing ToM very recently (on Ch.3 of aMoL now), and I have to say, the whole Finn thing was even creepier than I imagined the first time! The hardest thing for me, though, is my mental image of them... my mind wants to insert something like the creatures in Star Wars II that do the cloning.

I am also curious about the music, how it doesn't work all the time. I also want to know what benefit the Finns have from the ancient treaty, if there is any benefit other than people stupid enough to get trapped there.

 

[BFG]

I guess without the treaty offering a false sense of security fewer people would be desperate enough to enter.  Plus the treaty prevents people entering with the things that hurt them.

[Tyler Glembo]

I guess without the treaty offering a false sense of security fewer people would be desperate enough to enter.  Plus the treaty prevents people entering with the things that hurt them.

 

Somehow I disagree.  I think one thing the WoT universe showed us is that people are willing to go to great lengths for what they desire, regardless of their own security.  Especially on the Light side.  Would Mat have not gone into the Ter'angreal if someone told him it was dangerous?  I'm willing to bet he still would have.

 

It is, IMO, a central theme of WoT of those who walk in the light, that nobody values their own lives but places immense value on every's lives around them.  Every character does crazy things without regard to safety, but as soon as someone does something that may get them a thorn bush scratch they become very upset that the "woolheaded" person would put themself in danger in such a way.  In fact, sometimes it seems the characters are willing to risk death just to avoid minor inconveniences for those around them.

 

Contrast that with the Dark servants, who only think of self preservation and don't care about lives around them and you have the central difference in the WoT universe.  Neither side makes sense (complete disregard for own life v. total regard for own life) but a balance between the two is the proper way to live for the inhabitants of this universe.

[BFG]

 

I guess without the treaty offering a false sense of security fewer people would be desperate enough to enter.  Plus the treaty prevents people entering with the things that hurt them.

 

Somehow I disagree.  I think one thing the WoT universe showed us is that people are willing to go to great lengths for what they desire, regardless of their own security.  Especially on the Light side.  Would Mat have not gone into the Ter'angreal if someone told him it was dangerous?  I'm willing to bet he still would have.

 

It is, IMO, a central theme of WoT of those who walk in the light, that nobody values their own lives but places immense value on every's lives around them.  Every character does crazy things without regard to safety, but as soon as someone does something that may get them a thorn bush scratch they become very upset that the "woolheaded" person would put themself in danger in such a way.  In fact, sometimes it seems the characters are willing to risk death just to avoid minor inconveniences for those around them.

 

Contrast that with the Dark servants, who only think of self preservation and don't care about lives around them and you have the central difference in the WoT universe.  Neither side makes sense (complete disregard for own life v. total regard for own life) but a balance between the two is the proper way to live for the inhabitants of this universe.

 

Just thought I'd highlight a relevent word *whistles innocently*

 

Although I agree with your overall sentiment, I'm not sure I agree with the application in this case.  The problem is that within story every time we see someone enter through the gates (and thus held by the treaty) they've been desperate (with the exception of Lanfear) and so would likely go through anyway (except Lanfear). 

 

Additionally on the whole we've followed either the heroes (or occasionally villanis) through a journey, we haven't met very many 'ordinary' people, but we have met plenty who aren't willing to put themselves back so others can shine (the White Tower seems full of them :) ).  And we know that not everyone that enters is a hero (or villain) Berelains ancestor showed that not everybody that's 'good' is good, wise or noble; when they gave up the doorway as they'd used it and it was therefore useless to them (but failed to think of future generations).  Although the LB does polarise the groups a bit, the world isn't quite so black & white

[Tyler Glembo]

Lol, I certainly don't trust any innocent whistles from you!  

 

I do take the point that we only see the more notable people in the world..........for more than one page.  However, we see thousands of "ordinary people" characters and by and large they seem willing to get involved in one way or another, whether it is a farmer giving a ride on a cart or something of the sort.  I'd bet that when pressed they would step through the doorway.

 

You bring up a good point about Berelain's ancestors.  I can only assume one of them didn't get the answers they wanted and that is why they gave up the doorway.

[BFG]

Actually the more I think about it the more convinced I become that the reason the accord is there is so that people feel safe enough to step through the door in the first place. 

 

Based on what we know their are 2 people to have stepped through without the agreement - Mat & co, and Birgette & Gaidal(sp?).  So from that their's a 50:50 chance of winning/dying, except that Mat & co survived only because Mat is so unbelievably lucky and had a way out.  So without the accords I suspect that the chances of dying are actually something like 99.9%(recurring).  After a while it doesn't matter how desperate you are, if nobody ever comes out alive, you're not going to go in as it would be completely pointless and the people you're trying to save are going to die as you're dead anyway.  This means the Finns starve. 

 

With the agreement enough people come out (probably a relatively large majority) alive that brave/reckless/foolish people can enter and feed them. 

 

 

Yet with the Farmer who offered Rand & Mat a lift, their were the Royal Guards who cantered past and forced them to the side of the road.  But you say 'when pressed', if nobody ever comes out, then what would be the point?  The accords are only an illusion of safety, but they do allow most people to come out unharmed.

 

MoL

 

 

But you're right, the farmer turns up again at FoM, and their are thousands that do - but again, extreme circumstances that as far as we know occur once in 7 ages

 

 

 

 

Also to be fair to Berelains ancestor, it's possible he (and every other) ancestor before him were told that they could give up the door, help save the world but die early or keep the door and live long and doom the world, and that he was the first to take the long-term view and paid the price...

[Tyler Glembo]

Hmm...fair point about Berelain's ancestor.  Who knows why they gave up the doorway.  As for people entering without an agreement, I remain unconvinced.  A sample size of two doesn't make the argument for me, even though I agree Mat being tav'eren probably had something to do with his safe passage.  

 

Anyways, point being, people obviously knew about the Finn's weaknesses, and obviously had visited them in order to make an agreement in the first place.  If nobody visited them because everybody died there would be no agreement.  But, agreements in WoT seem to come from the precipice of war so maybe at one time there was a Finn war?  People brought their instruments of war (music, iron, etc) to make war with the Finns but then eventually the war was stopped and agreement was reached?  Hmm...