Prophecy; New and Fulfilled. (Full Spoilers)

[Luckers]

For the discussion of the fulfilment of old prophecies, and any new prophecies.

[bigdoug1971]

I'm interested in the dark prophecy from the end of the last book.  The Fallen Blacksmith's pride and the Broken Wolf.  I've read a lot of theories and had discussions about this but I'm looking forward to the final answers.

 

[Zefram]

I am interested in Callandor prophecy which states "Who draws it out shall follow after" which implies to whomever picks up Callandor after Rand becomes leader of Asha'man (or so I thought) and it was Jahar Narishma. I wonder if that prophecy would be fulfilled or Logain took that part with his "Honor and Glory" Min's viewing. Because Narishma was delegated to Warder in Winter's Heart and we had maybe one mention of him in Knife of Dreams when he detected Aran'gar/Halima and thats it.

I wonder if there is anything with Narishma in AMoL

[fionwe1987]

I am interested in Callandor prophecy which states "Who draws it out shall follow after" which implies to whomever picks up Callandor after Rand becomes leader of Asha'man (or so I thought) and it was Jahar Narishma. I wonder if that prophecy would be fulfilled or Logain took that part with his "Honor and Glory" Min's viewing. Because Narishma was delegated to Warder in Winter's Heart and we had maybe one mention of him in Knife of Dreams when he detected Aran'gar/Halima and thats it. I wonder if there is anything with Narishma in AMoL

Narishma helps Egwene by telling her what weaves Taim is throwing at her. We don't even know if he survives, after. I think the "who draws it out" thing was totally misinterpreted. It has nothing to do with the sword. 

 

What hand can grasp that fearful blade? Its the onyx hand that Min saw grasping it... Moridin. He is the one who "follows after", in the sense that he carries on (with Rand's soul). His is the hand that grasps the fearful blade. That was a question in the Prophesies, as it gave a hint that there was doubt. It was not meant to be the Dragon Reborn, at that final moment. The flaw in the blade was never a trap for Rand. It was a trap for Moridin.

 

Other prophesies don't hold up so well. Twice Dawns the Day doesn't completely work. The worst offender is the final Shadow prophesy from ToM. I can think of nothing that fits it. Min's vision about Cadsuane teaching something to the Asha'man also doesn't come true. And I'm not sure what the point of Egwene's dream about Logain was.

[Zefram]

 

 

I am interested in Callandor prophecy which states "Who draws it out shall follow after" which implies to whomever picks up Callandor after Rand becomes leader of Asha'man (or so I thought) and it was Jahar Narishma. I wonder if that prophecy would be fulfilled or Logain took that part with his "Honor and Glory" Min's viewing. Because Narishma was delegated to Warder in Winter's Heart and we had maybe one mention of him in Knife of Dreams when he detected Aran'gar/Halima and thats it. I wonder if there is anything with Narishma in AMoL

Narishma helps Egwene by telling her what weaves Taim is throwing at her. We don't even know if he survives, after. I think the "who draws it out" thing was totally misinterpreted. It has nothing to do with the sword. 

 

What hand can grasp that fearful blade? Its the onyx hand that Min saw grasping it... Moridin. He is the one who "follows after", in the sense that he carries on (with Rand's soul). His is the hand that grasps the fearful blade. That was a question in the Prophesies, as it gave a hint that there was doubt. It was not meant to be the Dragon Reborn, at that final moment. The flaw in the blade was never a trap for Rand. It was a trap for Moridin.

 

Other prophesies don't hold up so well. Twice Dawns the Day doesn't completely work. The worst offender is the final Shadow prophesy from ToM. I can think of nothing that fits it. Min's vision about Cadsuane teaching something to the Asha'man also doesn't come true. And I'm not sure what the point of Egwene's dream about Logain was.

It was something like Honor and Glory or Glory to Come, which I guess comes true if Logain survives final battle and is not converted to DO

[KakitaOCU]

It's been pretty much confirmed that Logain will now lead the Black Tower. Glory to come in being the male counterpart to the Amyrlin seat, bringing the concept of channeling Men back into a positive light, that's plenty of glory to come.

 

As for Cadsuane's lesson, I really think we've seen this one. Rand mentions it in ToM. "We're not weapons, we never have been, we're men" (I know I'm probably not remembering that line exactly right.).

 

Cadsuances focus was on teaching Rand that he could laugh, cry, be human and still be the Light's Champion. Just because she did it through failure and just because it wasn't entirely her intention to teach all of the Asha'Man that doesn't mean she didn't do it.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

 

I am interested in Callandor prophecy which states "Who draws it out shall follow after" which implies to whomever picks up Callandor after Rand becomes leader of Asha'man (or so I thought) and it was Jahar Narishma. I wonder if that prophecy would be fulfilled or Logain took that part with his "Honor and Glory" Min's viewing. Because Narishma was delegated to Warder in Winter's Heart and we had maybe one mention of him in Knife of Dreams when he detected Aran'gar/Halima and thats it. I wonder if there is anything with Narishma in AMoL

Narishma helps Egwene by telling her what weaves Taim is throwing at her. We don't even know if he survives, after. I think the "who draws it out" thing was totally misinterpreted. It has nothing to do with the sword. 

 

What hand can grasp that fearful blade? Its the onyx hand that Min saw grasping it... Moridin. He is the one who "follows after", in the sense that he carries on (with Rand's soul). His is the hand that grasps the fearful blade. That was a question in the Prophesies, as it gave a hint that there was doubt. It was not meant to be the Dragon Reborn, at that final moment. The flaw in the blade was never a trap for Rand. It was a trap for Moridin.

 

Other prophesies don't hold up so well. Twice Dawns the Day doesn't completely work. The worst offender is the final Shadow prophesy from ToM. I can think of nothing that fits it. Min's vision about Cadsuane teaching something to the Asha'man also doesn't come true. And I'm not sure what the point of Egwene's dream about Logain was.

It was something like Honor and Glory or Glory to Come, which I guess comes true if Logain survives final battle and is not converted to DO

No. The dream was about him stepping over a puppet of Rand. Him stepping over Rand was achieved. The puppet/mask is still not explained.

 

As for Cadsane: Rand's message comes too late (and with some weird chronology to boot). The Asha'man have already decided to make a future for themselves by then, stung by his lack of care. So this can't be it.

[KakitaOCU]

Or it could be and this is a case of the timeline being messed up, we'll have to see as things unfold.

 

As for the puppet Rand. Rand "Died" and Logain became the leader of the world's Male Channellers, pretty clear to me.

[squiga]

agreed. narishma theories didnt bear fruit, gross misinterpretation on that particular line.  had him lined up going against demandred in my head.

[Zefram]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am interested in Callandor prophecy which states "Who draws it out shall follow after" which implies to whomever picks up Callandor after Rand becomes leader of Asha'man (or so I thought) and it was Jahar Narishma. I wonder if that prophecy would be fulfilled or Logain took that part with his "Honor and Glory" Min's viewing. Because Narishma was delegated to Warder in Winter's Heart and we had maybe one mention of him in Knife of Dreams when he detected Aran'gar/Halima and thats it. I wonder if there is anything with Narishma in AMoL

Narishma helps Egwene by telling her what weaves Taim is throwing at her. We don't even know if he survives, after. I think the "who draws it out" thing was totally misinterpreted. It has nothing to do with the sword. 

 

What hand can grasp that fearful blade? Its the onyx hand that Min saw grasping it... Moridin. He is the one who "follows after", in the sense that he carries on (with Rand's soul). His is the hand that grasps the fearful blade. That was a question in the Prophesies, as it gave a hint that there was doubt. It was not meant to be the Dragon Reborn, at that final moment. The flaw in the blade was never a trap for Rand. It was a trap for Moridin.

 

Other prophesies don't hold up so well. Twice Dawns the Day doesn't completely work. The worst offender is the final Shadow prophesy from ToM. I can think of nothing that fits it. Min's vision about Cadsuane teaching something to the Asha'man also doesn't come true. And I'm not sure what the point of Egwene's dream about Logain was.

It was something like Honor and Glory or Glory to Come, which I guess comes true if Logain survives final battle and is not converted to DO

No. The dream was about him stepping over a puppet of Rand. Him stepping over Rand was achieved. The puppet/mask is still not explained.

 

As for Cadsane: Rand's message comes too late (and with some weird chronology to boot). The Asha'man have already decided to make a future for themselves by then, stung by his lack of care. So this can't be it.

Not the dream, Min had a viewing of Logain (when he and she were on the run with stilled Leane and Siuan). It showed Glory to come and Min was confused because Logain at the time was gentled. (Rereading the whole WoT now so its fresh in my mind)

[Zefram]

Question on Prophecy of Gitara Moroso regarding Luc. She sent him off to Blight because she foretold that either fame awaited him or fate. He became Slayer - paid assassin/DF. Is it ever explained anymore on his fate or fate of Slayer/Isam? Does it help Rand or the World or he just tries to kill Rand (as asked to by Lanfear in Prologue) and fails?

 

I can't believe that Gitara, who basically created circumustances that led Dragon Reborn's birth, would just send off Luc (who assumingly wasn't DF at the time) to became DF and Slayer and threat to Dragon Reborn for no reason other than to find "fame or fate in Blight".

[DarkSage]

I'm interested in the dark prophecy from the end of the last book.  The Fallen Blacksmith's pride and the Broken Wolf.  I've read a lot of theories and had discussions about this but I'm looking forward to the final answers.

Hi, first time poster, long time lurker, but I have a theory on this particular prophecy I've been tossing around for a little while now. I think the Broken Wolf IS actually Perrin. My specific reasoning(keeping this short so as not to clutter the thread too much)is two fold. First, the requirement of his death breaking the will of the people, the second being that this is in fact a Dark Prophecy. Perrin's death at the end of ToM would certainly have shaken everyone who was with him at the time to the core, including Galad. Not to mention Perrin's army would not have stood for his unjust death at the hands of Byar. Likely a large scale battle would have followed and both sides would have obliterated each other. Now I know Perrin survived the ordeal and that would indicate that this particular prophecy can not have come to pass yet. However, being as this is a Dark Prophecy wouldn't the followers of the Light seek to invalidate such a prophecy, even unknowingly? Would the Pattern itself not have sought a way to invalidate it?

 

Now, bear with me because this is the part that is entirely theoretical(and easily blown apart by a single quote from RJ or BS)but just because a Propchecy has been invalidated does not make it invalid to begin with. Until the ACTUAL moment of the Prophecy, Perrin's death was still a valid outcome of Byar's attack. It was not until the intervention of Dain Bornhald that the Prophecy was defeated. This implies that there are two EQUALLY valid prophecies in play here and that each time an important moment comes up one of these becomes reality and the other ceases to be(or potentially becomes another symbol on a Portal Stone but that's an entirely different line of thought). However, each of these other moments is only a stepping stone towards the ultimate show down, and each win gives the Dark One or the Light an advantage.

 

We have to accept the fact that we have access to very few of the prophecies of the Dark One, but I think we can logically assume(though I admit that this is an assumption and could also easily be wrong)that there is a vast collection of these Dark Prophecies and we have only seen a very small number of them. That being said, I would be incredibly surprised if there was not a vast compendium of these prophecies and that just about every one of these has something analogous within the Karaethon Cycle or another similar Light Propchecy.

[dfchang]

Logain's glory is he is the SEALBREAKER.  Also obviously the future leader of the Black Tower.

 

I absolutely agree with Fionwe1987's interpretation of Callandor and Moridin.

 

Cadsuane taught the lesson to Rand in aMoL that he shouldn't just act like a weapon but like a man.  Also that he shouldn't be convinced he will die but must fight to live as well.  Rand passes on that sentiment to the rest of the Ashaman via letter to Logain and Androl.  Not sure why they wouldn't like it though.

 

Logain stepping over Rand as a puppet can mean many things.  It could be a reference to Rand's fake death.  It could also mean that Rand was NEVER the head of the Black Tower and was only a "puppet" or figurehead set up by Taim.

 

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.  Ummm, we have an eclipse and he drips blood walking up to Shayol Ghul, seems simple enough and straightforward enough.  Not epic but it's fulfilled.

 

The Dark Prophecy at the end of ToM:

 

I think it's pretty clear.  One Eyed Fool is obviously Matt.  Fallen Blacksmith obviously Perrin.  First amon Vermin is Rand which makes sense.  Broken Champion is also Rand.

 

The tricky one is Broken Wolf.  If we accept that Rand is both Broken Champion as well as First among Vermin, then Perrin can technically be Broken Wolf as well as Fallen Blacksmith.

 

He is Compelled by Lanfear and we know the Midnight Towers are the Forsaken.  This matches.  Death can be Moridin who certainly knows Perrin.  And if he falls, Dark One wins, Lanfear becomes supreme and the rest follows.

 

A lesser argument can be made that Ituralde is the Little Wolf is BROKEN.  Graendal uses compulsion on him as well.  hence he is consumed by the midnight towers.  He has certainly known enough death via his experiences in war and especially in Maradon.  And his fall would have resulted in the collapse of the resistance at Shayol Ghul.  Game over.

 

Obviously these are DARK prophecies and so don't come true but I think it's consistent enough given the events of aMoL.
 

[fionwe1987]

Dark Prophesies come true as much as Light ones do. And the problem with this is that no one is consumed by the "Midnight Towers" whose fall causes fear and sorrow in the hearts of men. One I could think of was Lan, but I can't really see how him falling after killing Demandred would only cause fear and sorrow among men. Rand also doesn't quite fit.

 

Also, the last day of Perrin's pride is yet to come. I don't see anything that qualifies as that, yet he is obviously the fallen Blacksmith.

 

And of course, Mat never walks the halls of mourning. Not on the day any of the other things supposedly happen.

[dfchang]

I don't know, that Dark Prophecy at the end predicting victory for the Shadow seems pretty mutually exclusive from the Light prophecies.

 

I don't see "day" as literally day but more like "the time" when all of this happens.

 

Perrin's actions and the way he treats the Shadow especially Lanfear can be interpreted as pride by the bad guys.  He could be seen as pretty arrogant, not desiring any help from the Forsaken, treating them with contempt etc.  He's also pretty powerful in the Wolf Dream.

 

The Dark Prophecy says he WILL FALL and be consumed, that his destruction WILL bring fear and sorrow . . . all of that sounds pretty conclusive and none of it comes to pass as far as I know.  Lot of the Dark Prophecy seems to say what the Shadow HOPES will happen.   IF Perrin had fallen then I can definitely see how his destruction would bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men.

 

As far as I'm concerned the Dark Prophecy is interesting only insofar as trying to identify which character fits the Shadow's depiciton of them.  The rest of it is just Dark Side propoganda which ultimately doesn't happen. 

 

What Light prophecies don't come to pass?  I thought all of then did? 

[kcf]

one of the major points of the past 2 books has been that nothing is inevitable, not even prophesy. You even see it in Min's visions as she starts to see possibilities rather than certainties.

[fionwe1987]

I don't know, that Dark Prophecy at the end predicting victory for the Shadow seems pretty mutually exclusive from the Light prophecies.

 

I don't see "day" as literally day but more like "the time" when all of this happens.

 

Perrin's actions and the way he treats the Shadow especially Lanfear can be interpreted as pride by the bad guys.  He could be seen as pretty arrogant, not desiring any help from the Forsaken, treating them with contempt etc.  He's also pretty powerful in the Wolf Dream.

 

The Dark Prophecy says he WILL FALL and be consumed, that his destruction WILL bring fear and sorrow . . . all of that sounds pretty conclusive and none of it comes to pass as far as I know.  Lot of the Dark Prophecy seems to say what the Shadow HOPES will happen.   IF Perrin had fallen then I can definitely see how his destruction would bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men.

 

As far as I'm concerned the Dark Prophecy is interesting only insofar as trying to identify which character fits the Shadow's depiciton of them.  The rest of it is just Dark Side propoganda which ultimately doesn't happen. 

 

What Light prophecies don't come to pass?  I thought all of then did? 

We've been told that Dark Prophesies work as well as Light ones. There's no if about it. And we've also been told that only Prophesies and Viewing since about CoT are unreliable. The rest must happen, barring the Dark One's victory.

 

As for Prophesies that didn't get fulfilled... Three on a boat comes to mind. Parts of that Prophesy get fulfilled, but the rest does not.

[Terez]

one of the major points of the past 2 books has been that nothing is inevitable, not even prophesy. You even see it in Min's visions as she starts to see possibilities rather than certainties.

 

RJ said her viewings are absolute. When she sees options, then one of the options will happen. The only prophecies that aren't certain are Dreams, and those that were given after the Pattern began falling apart (around COT or KOD), but we only know of a couple that didn't come true. Like a Seanchan woman handing Egwene an a'dam, which I suspect was only left unfulfilled because ewot missed it on their list of prophecies.

[fionwe1987]

 

one of the major points of the past 2 books has been that nothing is inevitable, not even prophesy. You even see it in Min's visions as she starts to see possibilities rather than certainties.

 

RJ said her viewings are absolute. When she sees options, then one of the options will happen. The only prophecies that aren't certain are Dreams, and those that were given after the Pattern began falling apart (around COT or KOD), but we only know of a couple that didn't come true. Like a Seanchan woman handing Egwene an a'dam, which I suspect was only left unfulfilled because ewot missed it on their list of prophecies.

So what's your take on "Three on a Boat". I'm not sure that was fulfilled.

[Terez]

It sure doesn't seem like that, but I'm sure RJ had some kind of metaphorical interpretation in mind. I'm just not sure he/Brandon quite pulled it off convincingly.

[fionwe1987]

It sure doesn't seem like that, but I'm sure RJ had some kind of metaphorical interpretation in mind. I'm just not sure he/Brandon quite pulled it off convincingly.

I guess so. Whatever it was, it was disappointing.

[KakitaOCU]

Could the woman giving Egwene the Adam be for the truce/treaty between her and Tuon?  Tuon basically handed over the keys to the end of Damance.

 

As for three on the boat, maybe a hint towards the outrigger novels?  Instead of it being our three we thought it'd be it's Tuon, Mat and MIn off to save Seanchan?

[Terez]

Timing is wrong for the boat. The future teeters on the edge of a blade. Presumably, Rand's future. I doubt there's anything significantly dire after his 'death'.

[dfchang]

Could the woman giving Egwene the Adam be for the truce/treaty between her and Tuon?  Tuon basically handed over the keys to the end of Damance.

 

As for three on the boat, maybe a hint towards the outrigger novels?  Instead of it being our three we thought it'd be it's Tuon, Mat and MIn off to save Seanchan?

 

I really like  your interpretation of the a'dam actually.  Pretty nice reading of it and fits well.

 

Melaine and Bair dreamed of you on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see, and a scale tilting first one way then the other.

 

The scale of course refers to Rand's love for each woman.   They do take turns being with him as well.  Is the boat metaphorical or real?   Could this refer to Rand free to wander and the three taking turns with him?

 

How about Min's viewing with Aviendha having 4 kids and there being something "odd" about it.  Assuming Randland doesn't have in-vitro fertilization isn't this sort of shocking in and of itself? 

 

Someone also brought up the fact that in the alternate universe vision Avi saw, Rand's kids don't need to channel to access the One Power.  Isn't that something similar to what Rand did with his pipe?  And if that's merely Rand being better able to manipulate reality after his ordeal fighting the Dark One, why is that abiility passed on to his heirs?

[fionwe1987]

Someone also brought up the fact that in the alternate universe vision Avi saw, Rand's kids don't need to channel to access the One Power.  Isn't that something similar to what Rand did with his pipe?  And if that's merely Rand being better able to manipulate reality after his ordeal fighting the Dark One, why is that abiility passed on to his heirs?

They still need to channel. They're just permanently connected to the One Power, and channel it very well. This is nothing like what Rand does at the end.