Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

[Alleluia_Cone]

 

 

The ending was successful for me, and it could afford to be abrupt because we'd been shown (in both AMoL and the Aiel scenes in ToM) what will come after. We didn't need a Return of the King movie situation where characters said goodbye to one another for 400 pages straight or we got detailed descriptions about how the life of Minor Tairen Noble Lady Mentioned Briefly Six Books Ago panned out. That would have been much more awful.

 

So a series defined by its meandering pace, repeated segues into a never-ending number of new storylines, and explicit decision to flesh out its immense cast of characters, ends in a few dozen pages, gives closure to only a small handful of those characters, flippantly suggests the answers to long awaited questions while ignoring many others, and this was the appropriate choice to make? Really?  

 

Strange that a series that story that took more than four million words to tell would feel the need to skimp on its ending, of all things.

You have to remember that the ending was skimped in part because RJ died before finishing the series. RJ left notes but i doubt that he left instructions on all the storylines that he had fleshed out.

 

That's my own working theory; for my own sanity, if nothing else. The other possibilities are too upsetting to contemplate.

[zanethanatos]

That's my own working theory; for my own sanity, if nothing else. The other possibilities are too upsetting to contemplate.

 

Would it really be that upsetting if the brief endings/conclusions to the various storylines were intentional? As well, did you like the endings we were given?

[mandragoran21]

Like Wert said, after 23 years of anticipation I don't think there is any ending that would satisfy everyone.  My only concern was that there would be a lack of action in the final book and the Last Battle would get skimped on.  It sure sounds like that is far from the case based on the spoilers.  So I'm very satisfied.  I never expected all of the characters' storylines to get wrapped up in a bow.  RJ made it very clear in interviews that wasn't going to happen.  There are no definitive endings in life.  Just new beginnings.  Since time is a wheel, eventually the One Power will fade out of the world, technology will take over, and after civilization destroys itself the cycle will begin again.

 

I also like the final 'hook' at the end that RJ referred to.  It sounds like Rand has achieved a higher understanding of the universe and can now manipulate reality without the One Power.  I think he has reached 'enlightenment' of sorts and is now like Buddha or Jesus.  He will probably spend the rest of his days wandering the earth until he decides to finally transcend to a higher plane of reality.

[zanethanatos]

Like Wert said, after 23 years of anticipation I don't think there is any ending that would satisfy everyone.  My only concern was that there would be a lack of action in the final book and the Last Battle would get skimped on.  It sure sounds like that is far from the case based on the spoilers.  So I'm very satisfied.  I never expected all of the characters' storylines to get wrapped up in a bow.  RJ made it very clear in interviews that wasn't going to happen.  There are no definitive endings in life.  Just new beginnings.  Since time is a wheel, eventually the One Power will fade out of the world, technology will take over, and after civilization destroys itself the cycle will begin again.

 

I also like the final 'hook' at the end that RJ referred to.  It sounds like Rand has achieved a higher understanding of the universe and can now manipulate reality without the One Power.  I think he has reached 'enlightenment' of sorts and is now like Buddha or Jesus.  He will probably spend the rest of his days wandering the earth until he decides to finally transcend to a higher plane of reality.

 

The Last Battle chapter alone is 190 pages - almost 20% of the book. And theres A LOT of fighting outside that, so most definetly plenty of action. Also, the last chapter (which I assume is the epilogue rather than the last numbered chapter) was written by RJ himself before his death.

[mandragoran21]

That's good enough for me.  I was worried the Last Battle would be 20-30 pages, and that no major characters would die.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not glad that Egwene dies in the book.  But I think it was necessary for at least one major character to perish in the Last Battle for the book to have a sense of gravitas.  It would have been very unrealistic if only the second and third string characters died.

[mandragoran21]

*double post*

[zanethanatos]

That's good enough for me.  I was worried the Last Battle would be 20-30 pages, and that no major characters would die.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not glad that Egwene dies in the book.  But I think it was necessary for at least one major character to perish in the Last Battle for the book to have a sense of gravitas.  It would have been very unrealistic if only the second and third string characters died.

 

Bela died, can't get much more serious that than.

[Alleluia_Cone]

Double Post

[Alleluia_Cone]

Would it really be that upsetting if the brief endings/conclusions to the various storylines were intentional? As well, did you like the endings we were given?

 

Leaving aside the fact that many storylines were not even granted an ending, brief or not, I do find it quite upsetting. I don't read Wheel of Time for its dedication to brevity (does anyone?). My own view is if you are going to take the time to open up a distinct storyline, and spend fifty thousand words on it, you better have an appropriate finish at the end. And never forget, the success of this series can be tied directly to its very vastness, encompassing all of the many storylines, the countless theories, the dozens upon dozens of open mysteries and so forth. That, in truth, is what has made Wheel of Time such a success and what distinguishes it from many a fantasy series. For it to go and completely disregard what makes it so great at its end is perverse in my view. Few were asking for a nice bow on everything, and almost no one expected such a thing, but what we got is something else entirely. It was more a case of answering a few questions and giving a few characters endings, implying the answer to a few more questions and implying the ending for a few more characters. The rest? Completely ignored. Not even addressed. To the dustbin of history. 

 

It goes back to what I said much earlier in the thread, as a stand-alone book, and in terms of pure entertainment, the book succeeds. It is, indeed, a very enjoyable book to read and it has exciting moment in spades. 

 

As the final book to a series that has been going for more than two decades, encompassing more than a dozen books, millions of words, and spawning several generations of fans? Not so much.

[fionwe1987]

Whose ending was totally ignored? I hope no one says Valan Luca.

[Guest Tsofu]

Valan Luca.  Oooh, you hoped no one would say that, sorry. 

 

Tsofu

[zanethanatos]

 

Would it really be that upsetting if the brief endings/conclusions to the various storylines were intentional? As well, did you like the endings we were given?

 

Leaving aside the fact that many storylines were not even granted an ending, brief or not, I do find it quite upsetting. I don't read Wheel of Time for its dedication to brevity (does anyone?). My own view is if you are going to take the time to open up a distinct storyline, and spend fifty thousand words on it, you better have an appropriate finish at the end. And never forget, the success of this series can be tied directly to its very vastness, encompassing all of the many storylines, the countless theories, the dozens upon dozens of open mysteries and so forth. That, in truth, is what has made Wheel of Time such a success and what distinguishes it from many a fantasy series. For it to go and completely disregard what makes it so great at its end is perverse in my view. Few were asking for a nice bow on everything, and almost no one expected such a thing, but what we got is something else entirely. It was more a case of answering a few questions and giving a few characters endings, implying the answer to a few more questions and implying the ending for a few more characters. The rest? Completely ignored. Not even addressed. To the dustbin of history. 

 

It goes back to what I said much earlier in the thread, as a stand-alone book, and in terms of pure entertainment, the book succeeds. It is, indeed, a very enjoyable book to read and it has exciting moment in spades. 

 

As the final book to a series that has been going for more than two decades, encompassing more than a dozen books, millions of words, and spawning several generations of fans? Not so much.

 

I just still have to think that all of that is in fact the point. I mean, we know BS was instructed that certain questions were supposed to be left unanswered (intentionally) - but I feel that this wasn't supposed to be the end of it all, just the start of something new. I do get what you are saying - while most of the main characters were wrapped up (in some manner) a lot of the more minor characters and plotlines were left alone or weren't completely closed out in the manner a lot of would have liked. It just doesn't make sense that so many things would be left by the wayside unintentionally. I just feel like ending the book in some other manner (where so much more was wrapped up) wouldn't have really fit this world as well. Have more answers would have been nice (as a reader) - but I'm not sure if it would really fit as well.

[Werthead]

Did my book miss a couple of pages or was the meeting between Hawking and the Empress (might she live forever) happening off-screen? I thought this meeting might give Mat so much credit, that he gets a better status with the Empress.

 

That was a bit lame, but I do wonder if there was no way to write that scene without it being hokey or strange (Tuon might even flatly refuse to believe it and proceed to ignore him, especially if he tells her he should release the damane or something).

 

Well, the Sharan channelers balanced out almost all the Aes Sedai, that is quite something. Especially since Demandreds Supercircus did not really participate, which removed probably some of the most skilled channelers. I thought Shara is slightly smaller than Seanchan, I had the impression that the Sharan army was bigger than the Seanchan army, so that would fit. But these are all minor issues. I had hopes that atleast one or two of the 400 (or more) channeleres might be joining the forces of Team Light, maybe at least after they get captured or something.

 

The maps in the BWB are a bit hard to judge, but Seanchan appears considerably more massive than Shara. Maybe twice the size if not more. Shara may be more populous (if we believe it was one unified kingdom for over 3,000 years, compared to Seanchan's 1,100 years or so), but that might not be the case.

 

I do not remember Nakomi being mentioned once in the book.

 

Nakomi is almost certainly the old woman whom greets Rand when he staggers out of Shayol Ghul at the end (with Moridin draped over his shoulder).

 

Like Fain, they played no role at all to the story.

 

Fain's role was brief, but fairly important. I get the impression that Jordan would have either made Fain more important if the series was shorter, (at six books Fain would have been a much more dominant character, but has been missing for most of the second half of the series), or his plan all along was that Fain would have been a big threat to the boys at the start and a negligible one at the end. The way he went out, with Mat killing him with the cursed dagger and musing that he must be immune to it after handling it for so long before, was quite entertaining.

 

The Wise Ones also did not play an on-screen role.

 

They did convince Rand to change his plans for the Dragon's Peace to prevent their destruction at the hands of the Seanchan, however. Amys and Sorilea also had some good moments as well as Aviendha.

 

Ultimately, the series is too big with too many characters and too many factions for them all to get long, substantial moments in the final book. However, just about everyone you'd expect and a lot you wouldn't (even that guy on the cart who gave Mat and Rand a lift into Caemlyn in The Eye of the World gets a cameo!) did have a moment or two to shine.

 

 

Something which stuck out for me too.The nos of soldiers and channelers seems to be completely out of control with Sanderson.I kind of realized he was losing it in the previous books itself with Perrin's army

 

The Shaido, by themselves, fielded a lot more than 50,000 spears and 400 Wise Ones. Unless the Shaido were by far the largest clan and the one most heavily blessed with powerful channellers (neither confirmed in the books), the total number of Aiel spears by themselves should have been 500,000 spears and 4,000 Wise Ones at a minimum.

 

Then we have the Seanchan. Including Amadicians, Taraboners and Altarans as well as their own troops, they should have been able to almost match the Aiel by themselves. The number of damane is much more open to speculation, but certainly the numbers of troops should have been enormous, even taking into account their pounding at the hands of Ituralde. However, there is a get-out clause with the Seanchan that Tuon may have decided to have only taken an expeditionary army but left the bulk of her forces to defend the Seanchan conquests.

 

The Borderlanders numbered at least 400,000 (didn't they only take half their forces south with them in TPoD?) but of course were both badly mauled at Tarwin's Gap and in fighting elsewhere. Still, I suspect that between them, Andor, Cairhien, Ghealdan, Murandy (what happened to Roedran after his brief 5 minutes of fame?), Arad Doman, Tear and Illian they should have mustered at least another 300,000+ troops.

 

Even allowing for their maulings in the four initial campaigns, we are talking about the total number of troops on the side of the Light numbering very close to 1 million troops, and probably 7-8,000 channellers at a minimum (and that's being very conservative with the Windfinders and damane). And this would require a corresponding 5-7 times as many Trollocs to make the numbers feel right, and for the Sharans to play as big a role as they did, there needed to be many hundreds of thousands of them. By the end of the battle the Light had whittled the number of Trollocs down to three times as many as their own forces, but it does feel like it started out being much more inbalanced.

 

I never really got the sense that any of this was the case, however.

 

Mat makes mince meat of him.Another dissapointing end to a character supposedly matching the Dark One.

 

Fain has a great line about how Mashadar could lay low in the gaps between the worlds, growing in power until it was unstoppable. The wording that is used felt very similar to the description of the Dark One lying across the Pattern like a shadow. It made me wonder for a moment if Rand was going to kill the Dark One and if Mashafaindeth was going to effectively replace it, which would have been interesting. Instead Mat killed him, which was a bit perfunctory but at least got rid of the problem.

 

Interesting. I guess that means Ishmael got duped about everything. Fitting, since the DO is the "Father of Lies" I suppose.

 

There is a great moment when another fan question comes up - why did the Dark One resurrect Moridin and reward him by naming him Nae'blis rather than punish him for his failures - and Moridin anguishly says that he only wants oblivion and darkness, and that resurrecting him and forcing him to fight on was the Dark One's torment and punishment for him. An amusing moment.

 

Also, if Rand re-imprisons the DO through use of the TP, I wonder what that means for future Ages. One would think the DO wouldn't be so dumb as to allow a situation again where his own power can be used against him like that. If things truly do repeat as the Wheel turns, and the Bore gets re-opened, either the DO repeatedly makes the same mistake or there are theoretically other ways to remake the prison without use of the TP.

 

This depends on the interpretation of events. Ishamael did not know that Callandor was a True Power sa'angreal with that very specific flaw, something you'd presume that the Dark One would have told him about. So yeah, that appears to be a problem, as it won't work next time around.

 

At the same time, Nakomi's musings as Rand staggered out of the cave and some of the Dark One's comments suggested to me that there are a large but ultimately limited number of ways for the struggle to end, and some or all of them might have been used before. I like to think of the Creator saying, "Oh, he's used the reverse-True Power sa'angreal ploy this time? Nicely done sir, I could have sworn you'd go for the imperfect Patch solution," whilst seeing how things unfolded.

 

 

So a series defined by its meandering pace, repeated segues into a never-ending number of new storylines, and explicit decision to flesh out its immense cast of characters, ends in a few dozen pages, gives closure to only a small handful of those characters, flippantly suggests the answers to long awaited questions while ignoring many others, and this was the appropriate choice to make? Really?  

 

Strange that a series that story that took more than four million words to tell would feel the need to skimp on its ending, of all things.

 

There are very early interviews with Robert Jordan where he says that the Last Battle would fill two books, so yeah, either his definition of the Last Battle was looser than most people's, or we did ultimately get a more rushed ending than he was planning twenty years ago. Though that does include the fact that RJ himself changed his mind (with the whole 'AMoL as one book' thing) as well as the situation Brandon had to deal with.

 

However, I don't see an easy way of rectifying this problem. Either you have hundreds of pages of wrapping up after the main action is finished, which could drag on interminably and also might not be available (AMoL is getting towards the upper word limit for a single-volume novel as it is), or you end sharp and fast and try to give everyone as much closure as possible during the actual book.

 

Taking on board the idea that the series has been effectively 'ending' since at least KoD, if not the Cleansing, you can see how almost every major plot point is concluded, shut down or closed off. The only areas that do feel they need more explanation are the Sharan stuff and what's going on in Seanchan, and we know RJ planned to revisit the latter in a sequel book.

 

In fact, that is a possible problem of AMoL: we're not getting the Seanchan outrigger, but when RJ was writing and planning the last few books, he had that book in his mind as a way of dealing with stuff that he couldn't fit into AMoL. This parallels what Steven Erikson did in his later Malazan books (the only comparable recent 'really big' fantasy series that has also ended) when he knew he didn't have to wrap up every single little thing as he knew he had more books to explore some of the less-immediately-important stuff. The difference is that Erikson is still with us and is working his way through his planned sequel and prequel books, whilst RJ sadly is not.

 

I also like the final 'hook' at the end that RJ referred to.  It sounds like Rand has achieved a higher understanding of the universe and can now manipulate reality without the One Power.  I think he has reached 'enlightenment' of sorts and is now like Buddha or Jesus.  He will probably spend the rest of his days wandering the earth until he decides to finally transcend to a higher plane of reality.

 

That's going to generate a lot of discussion. My take is that when Rand used the True Power and One Power together to regenerate the Dark One's prison, some of that power was somehow grafted on his soul, allowing him to manipulate matter at will without having to channel. This may be related to the saa in his eyes (anyone else mention that Rand has a permanant saa in one of his eyes in the shape of the Dragon's Fang?).

 

Whose ending was totally ignored? I hope no one says Valan Luca.

 

Yeah, I was going to ask that. If someone can assemble a list of questions that were left totally unaddressed (in a separate thread?) that would be helpful. At this stage I'm not really getting the complaint. I understand the view that some things could really have done with some more time being spent on them, but not the one that there are significant gaps in the ending.

[Heikoy]

Also, if Rand re-imprisons the DO through use of the TP, I wonder what that means for future Ages. One would think the DO wouldn't be so dumb as to allow a situation again where his own power can be used against him like that. If things truly do repeat as the Wheel turns, and the Bore gets re-opened, either the DO repeatedly makes the same mistake or there are theoretically other ways to remake the prison without use of the TP.

 

Think of the DO on a cosmic scale and consider that we don't know the number of times that the Wheel has previously turned. Perhaps the DO has found this particular scenario - when his own power is used - to be the most effective. Say that the Wheel has turned millions of times and each times he's come a bit closer with this tactic than the time before, then odds are he's gonna keep at it.

 

(I know that we're given "Ages" but I think those numbers are pretty meaningless)

[Amandera]

What do you guys think "the hook" was? I personally think Egwene created another thinness in the Pattern with her the Flame of Tar Valon (this definitely needs a fandom name, it's horrible) weave and that is it.. I know some of you think it's the bodyswap. Are there any others?

[Terez]

 

 

 

Agreed, this was one of my major problems with the book. The Dark One does not equal free will. How can he, when there is still free will while he can't touch the Pattern? How does his existence outside the Pattern grant people free will? It's definitely borrowed from Christian philosophy, and I suspect this is a pure Brandon addition. Partly because the first time killing the Dark One was mentioned was in TGS, and partly because of Rand's comment about his third question, which gives the impression that RJ didn't leave notes for the third question and Brandon felt the need to make something up to explain why Rand didn't just ask how to seal the Bore. But I could be wrong. Either way, I don't like it.

 

It's interesting-I didn't like this ending when it was described in the threads but found it more or less acceptable the way it was written. I read it as being that the DO's destruction actually removed people's capacity for evil. They weren't slaves as such, but human nature was irrevocably altered and screwed up when the DO was destroyed as opposed to merely being sealed away.

 

While I didn't mind it so much on its own terms I do agree with you that it sounds suspiciously like something Sanderson* came up with. It seems like we get a lot of new cosmology dumped on us. 

 

* I like Brandon Sanderson's books a lot, but for reasons I will expound upon later I did not think he was a good fit for finishing up this series.

 

 

you both do recall Moriane explaining the questions touching the Shadow could not be asked tot he Aielfinn/Eilfinn right?  so Rand couldn't ask anything to do with the Bore.

 

So instead of asking about the Bore....he asks about the Dark One? How does that make sense?

 

I don't think the woman at the end was Nakomi; I think it was Sorilea, and others have suggested Bair. But then, I hate the Nakomi concept completely, and would rather pretend that Brandon didn't go there. It's theories like Nakomi=Creator that will help me say goodbye to the WoT fandom with little regret.

[Werthead]

(I know that we're given "Ages" but I think those numbers are pretty meaningless)

 

The Ages aren't necessarily anything to do with the Dark One. The Second and Third Ages clearly ended with a confrontation with him, but the First did not (as we know about the portal stones and other things from that age, but there is no mention of the Dark One prior to the Bore being created). I think the other Ages also don't have anything to do with it. Whilst clearly each Age ends with some kind of massive change, these don't always have to be violent and there is no set time limit for them (as said in the BwB).

 

The number isn't meaningless, though: seven Ages to one revolution of the Wheel, and the number of revolutions is essentially infinite.

 

What do you guys think "the hook" was? I personally think Egwene created another thinness in the Pattern with her the Flame of Tar Valon (this definitely needs a fandom name, it's horrible) weave and that is it.. I know some of you think it's the bodyswap. Are there any others?

 

Rand setting out to explore the world, with the weird saa in his eye. There's clearly some unresolved stuff with Mat and Tuon, which clearly would have fed into the outrigger books.

 

The only other things in the last chapter which could be possibilities are: Birgitte revealing she is about to be reborn into the world, Rodel Ituralde reluctantly becoming King of Arad Doman and Cadsuane as Amyrlin Seat. None seem to be hugely compelling in terms of storylines that need to be addressed, however.

 

I hate the Nakomi concept completely, and would rather pretend that Brandon didn't go there.

 

It does seem a bit odd. I'd actually prefer the 'ancient Jenn Aiel' thing, but it requires too much fiddling around to work.

 

It could have been worse. Her name could have been Dioh or something along those lines, in which case I would have raised legions to go chasing after Brandon with custard pies from now until the end of all eternity.

[Davian93]

What do you guys think "the hook" was? I personally think Egwene created another thinness in the Pattern with her the Flame of Tar Valon (this definitely needs a fandom name, it's horrible) weave and that is it.. I know some of you think it's the bodyswap. Are there any others?

Most things about Egwene are horrible, why should this be any different?

[Davian93]

 

[Davian93]

It's theories like Nakomi=Creator that will help me say goodbye to the WoT fandom with little regret.

 

Yes, that would be pretty brutal.  Especially when we all know that it was actually Hoid in Wise One crossdresser garb.

[Terez]

It might as well have been.

[Davian93]

It might as well have been.

It felt like it to me.

 

I lean towards it being Sorilea or Bair just because I dont want it to be anything supernatural.

[MauricXe]

 

It might as well have been.

It felt like it to me.

 

I lean towards it being Sorilea or Bair just because I dont want it to be anything supernatural.

 

I'm thinking it's easier than that. She was a hero of the horn. From what I've read here, we see her amongst the heroes. Seems to me that lovely meeting with Avi was in TAR. That explains many of the weird details.

[fionwe1987]

Don't have much time, but I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with Nakomi as the Creator, or more likely, as a manifestation that has no power, only the ability to influence. We've seen right from the beginning that Borderlanders call death the "last embrace of the mother". They equate the land with a woman, and in this book, we saw cracks in the land being equated with cracks in the Pattern. All of which can be seen to point to Nakomi being an Earth Mother type thing, something like Shaidar Haran, perhaps. 

[sleepinghour]

I don't have the quote at hand since it's from an audio file, but I believe Brandon hinted recently at a signing that Nakomi had some connection to T'A'R.