The Battle Ajah.....and Cadsuane.

[Suttree]

I'm right because we know they are prepared to acquit themselves just fine based on evidence throughout the series. We have seen AS do very well in almost every instance except for this sneak attack. Which of course brings us back to the issues with the WT I raised initially combined with most of the Greens not being present for the sneak attack. To decide they are "useless" and have no "mettle" based on that one situation is of course somewhat ridiculous.

[shortkut]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Suttree" data-cid="2715220" data-time="1356217712"><p>

I'm right because we know they are prepared to acquit themselves just fine based on evidence throughout the series. We have seen AS do very well in almost every instance except for this sneak attack. Which of course brings us back to the issues with the WT I raised initially combined with most of the Greens not being present for the sneak attack. To decide they are "useless" and have no "mettle" based on that one situation is of course somewhat ridiculous.</p></blockquote>

 

The ones who have been out of the tower are probably bare minimum decent with battle weaves while the others are better with strategy since they would have had no opportunity to practice them.

 

In the next book we will only see the AS who are capable in battle since they are the good guys and need to kick ass.

 

During the raid they were not expecting an attack and the ones remaining were full of book learning for the most part and were dreadful at defending themselves. There is little reason for there to be this big debate because believing allAS are aing in battle or awful is like believing Santa is real; nice for your arguments but not for practicality.

[Suttree]

Oh I agree. It would be silly to make any sweeping generalizations either way as there is a range in skill. Again though I don't even think we can say they were dreadful at defending conclusively for the many reasons listed in thread. For a variety of reasons the WT was basically only a few steps away from Aridhol before it turned on itself in climate. Again there is not a fighting force on earth that realistically would have fared well there based on the situation.

 

Want to clarify one thing however. Some people seem to have a misunderstanding when it comes to AS staying in the WT. At any given time a 1/3 of the AS are out working in the world. We know they often rotate into the tower and back out again. Virtually every AS's room we see has momentos from a long life lived adventuring outside of the WT. There are percentage that don't really leave and focus on WT politics or running the organization but that is a small sliver of the over all whole.

[shortkut]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Suttree" data-cid="2715307" data-time="1356225090"><p>

Oh I agree. It would be silly to make any sweeping generalizations either way as there is a range in skill. Again though I don't even think we can say they were dreadful at defending conclusively for the many reasons listed in thread. For a variety of reasons the WT was basically only a few steps away from Aridhol before it turned on itself in climate. Again there is not a fighting force on earth that realistically would have fared well there based on the situation.<br />

<br />

Want to clarify one thing however. Some people seem to have a misunderstanding when it comes to AS staying in the WT. At any given time a 1/3 of the AS are out working in the world. We know they often rotate into the tower and back out again. Virtually every AS's room we see has momentos from a long life lived adventuring outside of the WT. There are percentage that don't really leave and focus on WT politics or running the organization but that is a small sliver of the over all whole.</p></blockquote>

 

We've only seen a handful of AS room, how do we know all have been out and about on adventures?

[Suttree]

I said the majority not all. Again at anytime there is a third out in the world and those cycle in/out with others. I would say there maybe is 20% that solely dedicate themselves to the running of the WT and that even includes people that have settled down later in life. The number that gain the shawl and never leave would be even smaller. I mean do you think we have just somehow only been shown rooms of adventurers? Of course not, it's the norm.

[Durinax]

I'm right because we know they are prepared to acquit themselves just fine based on evidence throughout the series. We have seen AS do very well in almost every instance except for this sneak attack. Which of course brings us back to the issues with the WT I raised initially combined with most of the Greens not being present for the sneak attack. To decide they are "useless" and have no "mettle" based on that one situation is of course somewhat ridiculous.

not really, it is a military proverb "The genious of a general is shown by disaster, and hidden by fortune" or some such. I also take this to reflect lower (ranks) on to show the backbone of people and their ability to take hard hits without being reduced to disorder.

[Suttree]

I'm right because we know they are prepared to acquit themselves just fine based on evidence throughout the series. We have seen AS do very well in almost every instance except for this sneak attack. Which of course brings us back to the issues with the WT I raised initially combined with most of the Greens not being present for the sneak attack. To decide they are "useless" and have no "mettle" based on that one situation is of course somewhat ridiculous.

not really, it is a military proverb "The genious of a general is shown by disaster, and hidden by fortune" or some such. I also take this to reflect lower (ranks) on to show the backbone of people and their ability to take hard hits without being reduced to disorder.

So if you can show any situation that would remotely come close to a a military group doing well while being targeted by the shadow for many hundreds of years, with a forsaken in their midsts, along with that military organization being on the verge of tearing itself apart with infighting(literally) like Aridhol due to Fain, already split down the middle once, and lastly having most of their elite fighters not present I'm willing to listen. Until you can do so we have to face the facts that it was a sneak attack that just happened to fall at a once in an age time in which the conditions will never be replicated. It is quite simply asking far too much for them to have a good showing there. It would have been utterly fake and cheapened the series for them to do so.

[Cybertrolloc]

You mean like the Seanchan in PoD or KoD? I'm sure I can come up with other examples given a few minutes that meet all your criteria :)

[Suttree]

What? By all means give it a shot but not sure how either of those situations fit in the slightest. They are not remotely close...

[muddasssir]

some one has already mentioned it that tower had absolutely no reason to suspect that they will have to face power based attack on the tower. One thing that everyone is ignoring is the element of surprise which was completely on the Seanchan side. Consider, what tower knows and do not know and despite the fact that many people know I do not like Eggy or AS, I think they did pretty reasonably well. You have to give credit that tower did not know about travelling and they had no knowledge about rakens or torakens. They just woke up to find monsters where they should not be.  As someone sadi maybe Mat and band or Aiel gotten out of it, but i would not bet it for anyother military force in rand land. Therefore, I think that green Ajah is going to be awesome in final battle.

[Durinax]

I'm right because we know they are prepared to acquit themselves just fine based on evidence throughout the series. We have seen AS do very well in almost every instance except for this sneak attack. Which of course brings us back to the issues with the WT I raised initially combined with most of the Greens not being present for the sneak attack. To decide they are "useless" and have no "mettle" based on that one situation is of course somewhat ridiculous.

not really, it is a military proverb "The genious of a general is shown by disaster, and hidden by fortune" or some such. I also take this to reflect lower (ranks) on to show the backbone of people and their ability to take hard hits without being reduced to disorder.

So if you can show any situation that would remotely come close to a a military group doing well while being targeted by the shadow for many hundreds of years, with a forsaken in their midsts, along with that military organization being on the verge of tearing itself apart with infighting(literally) like Aridhol due to Fain, already split down the middle once, and lastly having most of their elite fighters not present I'm willing to listen. Until you can do so we have to face the facts that it was a sneak attack that just happened to fall at a once in an age time in which the conditions will never be replicated. It is quite simply asking far too much for them to have a good showing there. It would have been utterly fake and cheapened the series for them to do so.

so your saying its completely unreasonable for a militaristic ajah to work together? Or for any of the ajahs to work together within their group? I am saying that since it is at night with explosions we should have been able to see at least one circle of AS, especially from the greens, but what we see is that they immediately scatter. They start out grouped at their quarters then they spread out through the tower, unless your saying that they wheren't in bed when it started.

[fionwe1987]

I'm right because we know they are prepared to acquit themselves just fine based on evidence throughout the series. We have seen AS do very well in almost every instance except for this sneak attack. Which of course brings us back to the issues with the WT I raised initially combined with most of the Greens not being present for the sneak attack. To decide they are "useless" and have no "mettle" based on that one situation is of course somewhat ridiculous.

not really, it is a military proverb "The genious of a general is shown by disaster, and hidden by fortune" or some such. I also take this to reflect lower (ranks) on to show the backbone of people and their ability to take hard hits without being reduced to disorder.

So if you can show any situation that would remotely come close to a a military group doing well while being targeted by the shadow for many hundreds of years, with a forsaken in their midsts, along with that military organization being on the verge of tearing itself apart with infighting(literally) like Aridhol due to Fain, already split down the middle once, and lastly having most of their elite fighters not present I'm willing to listen. Until you can do so we have to face the facts that it was a sneak attack that just happened to fall at a once in an age time in which the conditions will never be replicated. It is quite simply asking far too much for them to have a good showing there. It would have been utterly fake and cheapened the series for them to do so.

so your saying its completely unreasonable for a militaristic ajah to work together? Or for any of the ajahs to work together within their group? I am saying that since it is at night with explosions we should have been able to see at least one circle of AS, especially from the greens, but what we see is that they immediately scatter. They start out grouped at their quarters then they spread out through the tower, unless your saying that they wheren't in bed when it started.

I'm unsure if I've made this point before, but the forming of circles in the Tower is pretty hard. We know there's a lot of room in the Ajah quarters, which means the Aes Sedai are going to be spread out. Imagine they wake to the Tower shaking, and to great booming sounds. They rush out embracing the OP, and if the Seanchan have already made a landing in that corridor, briefly giving up to source so you can link with the sister who's your neighbor is not an option at all. 

 

Egwene did great, but she also got very lucky in that no to'raken landed directly in the Novices quarter. 

 

To put it in relatable terms, if the Band were attacked in the middle of the night by creatures they don't know, they'd have a hard time manning the Dragons and starting to shoot cannon balls at their enemies. It would happen eventually, but that kind of cooperative work is hard when you're literally battling for your life.

[Durinax]

I'm right because we know they are prepared to acquit themselves just fine based on evidence throughout the series. We have seen AS do very well in almost every instance except for this sneak attack. Which of course brings us back to the issues with the WT I raised initially combined with most of the Greens not being present for the sneak attack. To decide they are "useless" and have no "mettle" based on that one situation is of course somewhat ridiculous.

not really, it is a military proverb "The genious of a general is shown by disaster, and hidden by fortune" or some such. I also take this to reflect lower (ranks) on to show the backbone of people and their ability to take hard hits without being reduced to disorder.

So if you can show any situation that would remotely come close to a a military group doing well while being targeted by the shadow for many hundreds of years, with a forsaken in their midsts, along with that military organization being on the verge of tearing itself apart with infighting(literally) like Aridhol due to Fain, already split down the middle once, and lastly having most of their elite fighters not present I'm willing to listen. Until you can do so we have to face the facts that it was a sneak attack that just happened to fall at a once in an age time in which the conditions will never be replicated. It is quite simply asking far too much for them to have a good showing there. It would have been utterly fake and cheapened the series for them to do so.

so your saying its completely unreasonable for a militaristic ajah to work together? Or for any of the ajahs to work together within their group? I am saying that since it is at night with explosions we should have been able to see at least one circle of AS, especially from the greens, but what we see is that they immediately scatter. They start out grouped at their quarters then they spread out through the tower, unless your saying that they wheren't in bed when it started.

I'm unsure if I've made this point before, but the forming of circles in the Tower is pretty hard. We know there's a lot of room in the Ajah quarters, which means the Aes Sedai are going to be spread out. Imagine they wake to the Tower shaking, and to great booming sounds. They rush out embracing the OP, and if the Seanchan have already made a landing in that corridor, briefly giving up to source so you can link with the sister who's your neighbor is not an option at all. 

 

Egwene did great, but she also got very lucky in that no to'raken landed directly in the Novices quarter. 

 

To put it in relatable terms, if the Band were attacked in the middle of the night by creatures they don't know, they'd have a hard time manning the Dragons and starting to shoot cannon balls at their enemies. It would happen eventually, but that kind of cooperative work is hard when you're literally battling for your life.

I don't think they are super spread out, and I believe all the sisters kind of keep to the lower floors (for convenience) with much of the upper floors empty (including ajah quarters).

Hearing explosions they would have to figure its a power based attack, and as such hang back instead of rushing to the enemy and being subsequently scattered. If not for egwene being where she was and having a circle almost immediately (not to mention by teens who the most experienced had 2-3 times experience of linking, most being taught there on the spot). The WT would have been completely destroyed

[Azrayne]

A few of the ajahs seem pretty seperated from their goals. While reds, for example, seem to do a lot of actual hunting down and gentling male channelers, (pre-series, anyway) we don't hear much about how many greens actually go the borderlands and fight trollocs on a regular basis. The other one that strikes me as odd is yellow, in 3000 years they've never tried to discover new healing methods, just focusing their entire ajah on the one weave? And again, you almost never read about yellows who actually go out among the people and heal, and they're obviously not researching, so how exactly is their ajah actually focused on healing?

[Suttree]

Per Brandon there are Greens up patrolling the blight(we also hear about this in EotW although you are correct, we don't know how many). As for the Yellows we know that they use there "eyes and ears" network to search out and then travel to go heal outbreaks of disease and the like. Not as good as setting up healing centers but they certainly go out among the people. Blues have their causes, Greys we are told have had great success averting wars and forging treaties.

 

Some people seem to have this misconception that AS don't leave the WT but they are forgetting that at any given time at least 1/3 is out working in the world and they rotate in/out with others.

[Azrayne]

I think it's probably more an issue of writing than the setting itself. I think RJ intended the greens to be regular participants in the fight against the shadow, and intended yellows to be out there healing the people (at least somewhat), but as the story played out and he got caught up in the sub plots and complexities, those small background details got last in the larger picture.

[Suttree]

I think it's probably more an issue of writing than the setting itself. I think RJ intended the greens to be regular participants in the fight against the shadow, and intended yellows to be out there healing the people (at least somewhat), but as the story played out and he got caught up in the sub plots and complexities, those small background details got last in the larger picture.

Totally agree...good call.

[Viperswhip]

I still think the biggest factor, even more than the split, is that the Sisters who are good at combat are rarely in the Tower, they are out in the world wandering around.

[fionwe1987]

I don't think they are super spread out, and I believe all the sisters kind of keep to the lower floors (for convenience) with much of the upper floors empty (including ajah quarters).

I'm not claiming its two sisters per floor. But if you're claiming they're jam packed next to each other, you're going to have to provide evidence.

 

Hearing explosions they would have to figure its a power based attack, and as such hang back instead of rushing to the enemy and being subsequently scattered.

But how are they to know the explosions are coming from channelers in the air? They'd have been perfectly reasonable if they assumed a channeler from the ground, say at the gates, was launching attacks. By the time they figured different, it would have been too late.

If not for egwene being where she was and having a circle almost immediately (not to mention by teens who the most experienced had 2-3 times experience of linking, most being taught there on the spot). The WT would have been completely destroyed

Completely destroyed eh? I suppose Saerin and Seiaine's resistance don't count at all? 

 

A few of the ajahs seem pretty seperated from their goals. While reds, for example, seem to do a lot of actual hunting down and gentling male channelers, (pre-series, anyway) we don't hear much about how many greens actually go the borderlands and fight trollocs on a regular basis. The other one that strikes me as odd is yellow, in 3000 years they've never tried to discover new healing methods, just focusing their entire ajah on the one weave? And again, you almost never read about yellows who actually go out among the people and heal, and they're obviously not researching, so how exactly is their ajah actually focused on healing?

 

The Reds do hunt men down, but do you really need 150 sisters spending their 300 years on a job that involves 10-15 sisters every 15-20 years? The number of male channelers today is very small. Which makes the Red Ajah's numbers pointless.

 

As for the Yellows... read the scene where Nynaeve heals Siuan again. The moment they see someone use Fire and Earth safely in Healing, they're bursting with ideas. Within the month, they've come up with a huge family of weaves that require no energy from the patient. Its pretty clear that many of the Yellows probably had interesting ideas on Healing, but Tower indoctrination against trying to experiment with weaves was so strong that they never practiced them. 

[Durinax]

I don't think they are super spread out, and I believe all the sisters kind of keep to the lower floors (for convenience) with much of the upper floors empty (including ajah quarters).

I'm not claiming its two sisters per floor. But if you're claiming they're jam packed next to each other, you're going to have to provide evidence.

 

Hearing explosions they would have to figure its a power based attack, and as such hang back instead of rushing to the enemy and being subsequently scattered.

But how are they to know the explosions are coming from channelers in the air? They'd have been perfectly reasonable if they assumed a channeler from the ground, say at the gates, was launching attacks. By the time they figured different, it would have been too late.

If not for egwene being where she was and having a circle almost immediately (not to mention by teens who the most experienced had 2-3 times experience of linking, most being taught there on the spot). The WT would have been completely destroyed

Completely destroyed eh? I suppose Saerin and Seiaine's resistance don't count at all? 

Saerin was hard pressed to maintain her position, as well as Katerine trying to supercede her authority. Not to mention in the exact same scene the tower guards reported they where being wiped out (and told to switch to bows). Seiaine, I don't know where she is. But likely the only reason Saerin wasn't overrun was because the seanchan started to pull off their attack to get the harder nut to crack, egwene.

[fionwe1987]

I don't think they are super spread out, and I believe all the sisters kind of keep to the lower floors (for convenience) with much of the upper floors empty (including ajah quarters).

I'm not claiming its two sisters per floor. But if you're claiming they're jam packed next to each other, you're going to have to provide evidence.

 

Hearing explosions they would have to figure its a power based attack, and as such hang back instead of rushing to the enemy and being subsequently scattered.

But how are they to know the explosions are coming from channelers in the air? They'd have been perfectly reasonable if they assumed a channeler from the ground, say at the gates, was launching attacks. By the time they figured different, it would have been too late.

If not for egwene being where she was and having a circle almost immediately (not to mention by teens who the most experienced had 2-3 times experience of linking, most being taught there on the spot). The WT would have been completely destroyed

Completely destroyed eh? I suppose Saerin and Seiaine's resistance don't count at all? 

Saerin was hard pressed to maintain her position, as well as Katerine trying to supercede her authority. Not to mention in the exact same scene the tower guards reported they where being wiped out (and told to switch to bows). Seiaine, I don't know where she is. But likely the only reason Saerin wasn't overrun was because the seanchan started to pull off their attack to get the harder nut to crack, egwene.

 

I'd advise re-reading the scene, then. Yes, Egwene drawing their attention helped a lot. I don't think anyone is saying any different. But the Tower being completely destroyed? That's ludicrous.

[Durinax]

I don't think they are super spread out, and I believe all the sisters kind of keep to the lower floors (for convenience) with much of the upper floors empty (including ajah quarters).

I'm not claiming its two sisters per floor. But if you're claiming they're jam packed next to each other, you're going to have to provide evidence.

 

Hearing explosions they would have to figure its a power based attack, and as such hang back instead of rushing to the enemy and being subsequently scattered.

But how are they to know the explosions are coming from channelers in the air? They'd have been perfectly reasonable if they assumed a channeler from the ground, say at the gates, was launching attacks. By the time they figured different, it would have been too late.

If not for egwene being where she was and having a circle almost immediately (not to mention by teens who the most experienced had 2-3 times experience of linking, most being taught there on the spot). The WT would have been completely destroyed

Completely destroyed eh? I suppose Saerin and Seiaine's resistance don't count at all? 

Saerin was hard pressed to maintain her position, as well as Katerine trying to supercede her authority. Not to mention in the exact same scene the tower guards reported they where being wiped out (and told to switch to bows). Seiaine, I don't know where she is. But likely the only reason Saerin wasn't overrun was because the seanchan started to pull off their attack to get the harder nut to crack, egwene.

 

I'd advise re-reading the scene, then. Yes, Egwene drawing their attention helped a lot. I don't think anyone is saying any different. But the Tower being completely destroyed? That's ludicrous.

 

its not hard to see if egwene wasn't putting up a fierce fight causing them to draw their forces back to try and get her then Saerins forces would likely have been overwhelmed. And the only other place of gathering was on the ground floor but as I quoted earlier all the AS where in a state of shock/unresponsive to a green sister informing them of the formation of a resistance headquarters

[Cybertrolloc]

While it's true one channeler can probably destroy the tower, I don't think Durinax is arguing that ;) Reread the Tuon chapters of TGS plz, the answer is there.

[Taren]

As regards the sisters working vs. being in the Tower all of the time, Elaida made a summons for all sisters to return to the Tower when she was raised Amyrlin. I think this is an indication that an awful lot of them do work in the world. I think this is further shown when 1/3 of sisters are in the Tower, 1/3 with the rebels and the last third are still out there doing their jobs. 

 

I greatly dislike Egwene, I think she is self centered, acts like Elaida yet descries anything the other woman does. I think her plot line is written rather badly too, everything seems to fall nicely into place for her, even getting captured. I can't help but think that the attack on the Tower was written similarly, to show Egwene as an amazing leader whilst everyone else failed almost completely.

[Suttree]

 

I greatly dislike Egwene, I think she is self centered, acts like Elaida yet descries anything the other woman does.

Ahh the old Egwene as bad as Elaida hyperbole. Haven't seen this one for a bit(maybe we can pull out forsaken like as well ;). One seized power through an illegal coup and as Fain along with the BA influenced her bungled from bad decision to bad decision. The other had AS attempt to turn her into a puppet and had to use any means necesarry to get her feet under her. She has done more to reform the culture of the WT than anyone in maybe a thousand years and has clearly shown time and again how focused she is on helping the world survive TG. Wondering where you see a connection here?