The Battle Ajah.....and Cadsuane.

[BFG]

I'm not arguing with you about the reasons for whether or not the Tower should have been prepared or not, as I said I pretty much agree with that.

 

I'm disagreeing specifically over the 'readiness' of the rebel AS. The attack they had was also 'unconventional', but the general method they had - form circles with whichever sister was closest - is a good initial defence, has the benefit of giving novices and accepted some sort of protection and powers up the sister leading the circle.

 

They were expecting a OP attack?

They weren't expecting an attack by the Tower, they were expecting an attack by the Forsaken (given most don't understand how the Forsaken work - generally taking control through political/subsidiary mnethods). So yes, they planned their defence against superior OP usage, that's why they formed circles, so that they could match the power thrown at them by a Forsaken. They weren't specifically expecting an aerial attack, but they weren't specifically expecting a tea-towel attack either, I think they would have reacted a lot faster and more cohesively than the Tower did.

[WMBunt]

*edited because of a double post. Actual post is below*
 

[BFG]

can't edit - but I've just reread your original OP and misunderstood it the first time :( I read it that you thought the rebel AS weren't prepared either, but I think you probably meant that they (Tower) weren't ready for the Rebels to attack (esp from the air).

 

Apologies

[WMBunt]

One of the big things being overlooked, in my opinion, in the whole evaluation with regards to the lack of preparedness by the Tower AS is that there was no expectation of attack by the Rebel AS from the Tower AS by design. There is no need for a plan of defense of the Tower from the Rebels because another plan is already in play.

Egwene disrupts it because it's a plan she's not aware of and is not brought into the loop on once she's raised. Not being a puppet threw things into a state of limbo for the plan, but they stubbornly stuck to it and kept her ignorant of it. Then when she got captured and started working on the inside, it got even more convoluted. But the mock negotiations continued and there was still no expectation of an actual assault.

It could be argued there was a plan and it failed because it involved intrigue and politics rather than warfare.

The Rebels were ready because they adapted plans based on the bubbles of evil that attacked them in the camp and Forsaken machinations there. The bubbles that hit the Tower proper and the machinations of the Forsaken insider were much different. If the Rebels had to deal with shifting tent locations rather than actual physical assault, it likely would have looked different out there.

 

[BFG]

...

The Rebels were ready because they adapted plans based on the bubbles of evil that attacked them in the camp and Forsaken machinations there. The bubbles that hit the Tower proper and the machinations of the Forsaken insider were much different. If the Rebels had to deal with shifting tent locations rather than actual physical assault, it likely would have looked different out there.

 

The Rebels plans were in place before the bubble of evil hit, it may have been adapted after, but they had been expecting an attack by the Forsaken and had planned accordingly.

[WMBunt]

...

The Rebels were ready because they adapted plans based on the bubbles of evil that attacked them in the camp and Forsaken machinations there. The bubbles that hit the Tower proper and the machinations of the Forsaken insider were much different. If the Rebels had to deal with shifting tent locations rather than actual physical assault, it likely would have looked different out there.

 

The Rebels plans were in place before the bubble of evil hit, it may have been adapted after, but they had been expecting an attack by the Forsaken and had planned accordingly.

I don't think you're correct. I am at work and don't have my books with me (obviously), but I think something hit them and caught them unaware and they adopted that plan. It was not one conceived before they had been caught with almost disastrous results and had to adopt something.

 

If I'm wrong, so be it, but I am pretty sure they developed it after being caught off guard by something else.

[BFG]

"Open yourself to linking," Anaiya went on. "And you, Elayne, and... What is wrong with Emara and Ronelle?" On learning they were just dizzy, she muttered something under her breath, then told them to find a circle and link with it as soon as their heads were steady. Hurriedly she chose out four more Accepted from the cluster around Elayne. "Sammael – if it is him instead of one of the others – will learn we are far from helpless. Quickly now. Embrace the Source, but hold yourself at the point of embracing. You are open and yielding."

"This isn’t one of the Forsaken," Nynaeve began, but the motherly Aes Sedai cut her off firmly.

"Don’t argue, child, just open yourself. We have expected an attack, if not exactly like this, and planned for it. Quickly, child. There is no time to squander on idle chatter."

:)

[Morden]

I agree the Seanchan were far away.....but there was a rebel army across the river that appeared in the middle of the night from nowhere. And their purpose was to pull down Elaida and take the Tower for themselves. Kidnapping Egwene should have made them even more prepeared for an attack when they are holding the army's leader and a rescue attempt could happen at any time.

 

 

They weren't prepared for anything to hit them. That's the rub. For being the equivelant of an average field general, I would think they should have made preparations for an attack, even if it wasn't the one they were expecting. And the main point is the WAY they reacted to the attack. If events in the Last Battle don't go as planned will they crumble or make adjustments and stand their ground?

 

As mentioned sister on sister fighting was a last resort, and they all knew that it would have pretty much destroyed the Aes Sedai as a whole, they might have anticipated a small raid to rescue Egwene but that would be about it.

 

But to me the main difference between how the rebels reacted to the bubbles and how the tower aes sedai reacted to the attack show one key difference. The rebel aes sedai whilst squabbling and vying for power were not exactly trusting and forthcoming with their plans, they did infact work together without fear of being attacked. The Tower Aes Sedai were literally assaulting fellow sisters for being in their domains, they were scared of their own shadows and on the whole had almost no contact outside of their own Ajah and even then they were to an extent at arms lengths.

 

It was a deliberate and methodical attempt to weaken and isolate the Aes Sedai so they could not and would not work together and form links, because afterall would you surrender your power to someone you werent sure if you could trust?

 

The first bubble that hit the rebels was in a sense a shambles as well, they only had a few dozen sisters in the loop and as such had the seanchan attacked them, they would have been just as vulnerable. They learned a lot because of that. The tower did not have that possibility on many levels.

 

I am not always a massive fan of the Aes Sedai, I think there attitudes need some serious adjusting, but to me you are really comparing a row boat with a couple of pirates onboard trying to capture a yacht to having a task force of naval ships with aircraft support doing the same. You learn the hard way both times, but the difference is how much you get burnt learning.

[BFG]

@Morden - again I agree with what you say about the reasons behind the Tower AS poor showing, but I'm not sure why you say their were only a few sisters in the loop at Salidar? There were a few behind the running of the Camp, but having just reread I can't find anything to suggest that only a few Sisters were aware of the defensive plans in case the Forsaken attacked. Indeed the fact that they're planning a defence against the Forsaken suggests that all the Sisters know.

 

I'd assume they don't tell the Accepted or Novices for the same reason that Eg never mentions TG to them in tGS.

 

 

 

Honestly, the more I read these discussions the more impressed I am by the Rebels (although it's true that they didn't have Forsaken influence unti later).

[WMBunt]

Thanks for the find, BFG. Didn't think it needed to be quoted again and lengthen the page. So much to keep up with in regards to exactly when everything came together in regards to plan for responding to a threat.

I still think the biggest stumbling block was thinking they had everything in place and there was no real threat to be prepared for because they viewed the WT as impenetrable and had the misconception that the Tower held against even the Aiel (despite the fact that Byrne or someone mentions later that the Aiel never had any intention of actually taking the Tower).

[Durinax]

They were expecting a OP attack? I would say they are expecting a conventional army with the op supplementing it with travelling but a full on assault with the op? An initial strike using the op from the air(which would be impossible for the rebels to even carry out) such as the Seanchan did would be highly problematic given the oaths wouldn't it?

if they where anticipating a conventional army being supplemented by travelling they should not have been caught like they where. They should have had plans in place and soldiers in key location in case it did happen. An army attacking with travelling would be far more effective than an raid attacking from the air, since they would not need to open up the tower to get inside and thus lose the element of surprise

[Suttree]

@Durinax

 

See Mordern's post above. Preparing for the possibility of a conventional army travelling in(which I'm sure the tower guard prepared for)is vastly different that an aerial attack with the op. You seem to keep forgetting that any op use was only going to be used as an extreme last resort and again the preparations for both are so dissimilar as to have no bearing. That is before we even begin addressing all the other major issues that make this a once in a lifetime occurence.

 

At this point I don't think either side is going to budge. We'll find out who was right in a few weeks!

[Charlz Guybon]

They were expecting a OP attack? I would say they are expecting a conventional army with the op supplementing it with travelling but a full on assault with the op? An initial strike using the op from the air(which would be impossible for the rebels to even carry out) such as the Seanchan did would be highly problematic given the oaths wouldn't it?

 

Remember that both sides were trying to avoid sister on sister fighting at all costs.

The rebels specifically made their preparations to defend against a surprise attack by Sammael. Their plan, form full circles immediately, would have crushed any damane incursion.

[Suttree]

@Charlz

 

This was never a debate between the two about who was more prepared. Durinax put forth that the Battle Ajah was "useless" based on how the small sliver of Greens that were in the WT for the attack reacted. We are arguing the situation was so unique give the situation within the WT at the time and the type of sneak attack/raid it was. One can obviously not draw much about the Greens as a whole off that as your point highlights.

 

@BFG

 

Yes that is what I meant.

[Durinax]

At this point I don't think either side is going to budge. We'll find out who was right in a few weeks!

I am forced to agree with this

[Cybertrolloc]

Remember the green had been standing with the red recently, although since the red being the largest ajah and green the next a good number of them probably split to keep the 1/3 each between tower/rebel/out in the world.

 

Have we ever seen Myrelle in action?

 

Anyway, another question: why did the reds also suck? They're probably more prepared for OP fighting than greens after all. For that matter why did almost everyone suck except Saerin (should be thankful we have at least one besides Eg that was competent)?

 

Should be noted not to overweight the importance of Ajah, as most scenes we've seen where someone's being told about an ajah has that caveat.

[Cybertrolloc]

fix the stupid forum!

 

[Morden]

@Morden - again I agree with what you say about the reasons behind the Tower AS poor showing, but I'm not sure why you say their were only a few sisters in the loop at Salidar? There were a few behind the running of the Camp, but having just reread I can't find anything to suggest that only a few Sisters were aware of the defensive plans in case the Forsaken attacked. Indeed the fact that they're planning a defence against the Forsaken suggests that all the Sisters know.

 

I'd assume they don't tell the Accepted or Novices for the same reason that Eg never mentions TG to them in tGS.

 

 

 

Honestly, the more I read these discussions the more impressed I am by the Rebels (although it's true that they didn't have Forsaken influence unti later).

 

The Reason I think that not all the Aes Sedai were informed before hand is from Nynaeve dressing down Sheriam and co in (LoC Ch:15 paperback page 384)

 

"... You're afraid, afraid of the tower divided, afraid of rand, the forsaken, the black ajah. Last night Anaiya let slip that you had a plan ready in case one of the forsaken attacked. All those circles linking, right on top of the bubble of evil- do you finally believe in that? but all mismatched and most with more novices than Aes Sedai. Because only a few Aes Sedai knew beforehand. You think the Black Ajah's right here in Salidar. You were afraid your plan might get back to Sammael, or one of the others, you dont trst each other...."

 

It goes on a great deal before hand, and after as Nynaeve is common to do. But it gets pretty much confirmed on the last two pages of the chapter where Sheriam, Carlinya etc are reflecting and Carlinya states: "Do you want to tell Accepted what fewer than two dozen Aes Sedai know?" 

 

 

It worked out however purely because the division between Ajah's in Salidar didnt really exist, there were a few rivalries at the higher echelons but not to the same degree. It was a failure on the towers part, but it was orchestrated by the Forsaken more than anything else. Else Elaida would never have became Amylrin.

[bigdoug1971]

Thanks for the feedback on my topic. A lot of good points made here in regards to the Battle Ajah.

 

 

 

 

I hope the Greens make a great showing in the final book and make a stand to write songs about. As I pointed out in my original post, I do realize there are Greens like Cadsuane, Bera, and Kiruna that can be "walking death" if the situation requires it.

 

 

 

 

I just thought that all Greens would seek out fighting and slap anyone down that needed it. Perhaps if the Seanchan attacked the Greens' quarters in the Tower we may have seen a different outcome and the Seanchan would have had to back out and attack another section of the Tower to avoid them.

 

 

 

 

 

Either way, I agree with Suttree, we'll see what happens when the final book gets here. Cannot wait!!!

[TNine]

If i remember correctly, the attack also hit the Green Ajah quarters first and very hard. So we are looking at perhaps 30-40 Aes Sedai--max--waking up to explosions in their faces going up against an equal number of troops with more experience in combat. Perhaps Mat and the Band could have fought their way out of that one, but i hardly fault the Aes Sedai for failing.

 

Then again, i still don't understand the whole hatred of the Aes Sedai and belief that they have failed, so it might just be me.

[Durinax]

If i remember correctly, the attack also hit the Green Ajah quarters first and very hard. So we are looking at perhaps 30-40 Aes Sedai--max--waking up to explosions in their faces going up against an equal number of troops with more experience in combat.

I dont think we know that the Green Ajah was hit first and hard. So I am going to require an quote if you can find one

[BFG]

Thanks Morden!

[bigdoug1971]

If i remember correctly, the attack also hit the Green Ajah quarters first and very hard. So we are looking at perhaps 30-40 Aes Sedai--max--waking up to explosions in their faces going up against an equal number of troops with more experience in combat. Perhaps Mat and the Band could have fought their way out of that one, but i hardly fault the Aes Sedai for failing.

 

Then again, i still don't understand the whole hatred of the Aes Sedai and belief that they have failed, so it might just be me.

 

 

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I didn't realize they did attack the Green quarters. I guess I don't remember that part of the battle. But if that's true, then the Greens put on an even worse display of what the "Battle Ajah" can do.

 

And I didn't think anyone was projecting hatred of the Aes Sedai. This was about an Ajah that prides themselves on being called the "Battle Ajah" and standing ready for the Last Battle and the way they handled an attack on their own Tower.

[TNine]

I dont think we know that the Green Ajah was hit first and hard. So I am going to require an quote if you can find one

I didn't realize they did attack the Green quarters. I guess I don't remember that part of the battle. But if that's true, then the Greens put on an even worse display of what the "Battle Ajah" can do.

Yeah, i might have misread, there's no direct mention of it in the text. We know that Adelnora, the leader of the Green Ajah, was scattered relatively rapidly before being rescued a few minutes later. And there are no Green Sitters readily available when Saerine is organizing the defenses of the tower. So circumstantial evidence at best, but we do know the Green Ajah didn't have time to regroup against the attack.

And I didn't think anyone was projecting hatred of the Aes Sedai. This was about an Ajah that prides themselves on being called the "Battle Ajah" and standing ready for the Last Battle and the way they handled an attack on their own Tower.

I mean the general "White Tower is a fallen institution in a fallen world" mindset that is prevalent in the fandom. This thread definitely touches on that mindset.

[shortkut]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Suttree" data-cid="2712575" data-time="1356041286"><p>

<br />

At this point I don't think either side is going to budge. We'll find out who was right in a few weeks!</p></blockquote>. You will be right because there is no way the AS can be so incompetent during the last battle. Whether it is a bandaid or not wont matter because they need to be able to kick ass there do they will