Day 18 spoilers

[Suttree]

Quick note on Setalle "post healing". It's unlikely she can even be healed based on what we know. She was "burned out" not "stilled", the connection to the source is gone.

[skalors3]

I am also curious about the POV of the scene since she is being referenced by her full name. That may be a hint as to who is being named.

[Aredeis]

For what it's worth, it was the "she who may not be touched" bit that made me think channeler, not the "holy woman".  Certainly nothing definite.  I don't think Setalle can be healed either, at least not the way nynaeve did it.  But it still might be her if I'm wrong and it isnt a channeler.  Setalle would fit the role I think.

[driedraspberry]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="BFG" data-cid="2704123" data-time="1355498485"><p>

Their's also Mins viewings of a baby in a cradle with a sword and the 7 towers around Lan. Based on the fact that all her visions refer to the future, this shouldn't just be an identity - Lan was a baby with a sword, but by the time Min viewed it, it was the past. The 7 Towers could have been fulfilled when he accepted his Kingship, but the baby should still need to be fulfilled.

</blockquote>

 

Right, that's my only problem with the woman being Nyn.

 

Even a random AS taking this role would be significant, so in a way I don't see her being a major character. I'm thinking it's someone Eggs annoints, her Keeper perhaps. Though it's not quite a formal exchange, Leilwin being in WT/Egwene's service functions as half the deal.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I mentioned this in the aMoL spoilers thread but what about Teslyn? She's straightforward and honest, the main qualities for a Truthspeaker. She knows about the sul'dam and is not afraid to talk about it. She's Aes Sedai, fitting with the "holy woman" idea. She has spent a lot of time around Tuon, enough for Fortuona to hold some measure of respect for her.

 

I don't think Setalle or Nynaeve work very well, tbh. Everyone is throwing out Setalle "post-healing" but she expressly said she doesn't want to be healed in ToM. The Aes Sedai "holy woman" reading doesn't work if she isn't healed. Plus, I see her storyline as pretty much concluded to this point. Throwing her in as Tuon's Truthspeaker would read too much like just throwing the character in because we know her name.

 

I think Nynaeve is going to have her hands tied running Malkier. I'm still believe in a reborn Malkier given how many showed up to help Lan at Tarwin's Gap and I still think Nyn (at the very least) will survive the Last Battle (tangent: I think Lan will be the prophesied Broken Wolf and die but Nyn will figure out how to heal death and use that to revive Lan and subsequently Rand. There is quite a bit of foreshadowing for her doing this, imo). She can't very well be adviser to the Seanchan and be Queen of Malkier. 

 

In conclusion, Teslyn holds all the strengths of Setalle in being honest, straightforward, and knowing Tuon without the "healing" problem and is, at the moment, free of any obligations, unlike Nynaeve.

Teslyn's problem is that from what we've seen she still is suffering from the trauma of having been leashed. With time I'm sure she can overcome this, but I don't think there's enough time in AMOL for that. She will have trouble facing the Seanchan. Becoming Tuon's Truthspeaker would be too much for her I'd say.

[Terez]

The more I think about this, the more I suspect it's from RJ's 'last scene', or something very close to it.

[skalors3]

I am not so sure. I never envisioned his last scene containing a lot, if any, minor characters POV and this suggests based on the name usage that it is a POV we haven't seen much of.

[Aredeis]

Terez, is there a reason for thinking that other than making it more plausible to be Nynaeve?  Something in the vocabulary or sentence structure?

[Maleshub]

The two names that came to mind when I read the 18th MoL were: Moiraine and Setalle. And linked with the next MoL about Rand's 3 conditions, I am sure he sent Mat to Ebou Dar with his conditions to Tuon. They might include having a "Dragon's" adviser or emissary to pursue and maintain the peace after his passing.

 

Setalle's relationship with Tuon, and the latter's admission that she enjoyed her conversations with the former are an indication. And we know that Tuon followed part of Setalle's advice in handling Beslan. Moiraine has the personality, wisdom, and courage to deal with Tuon. And she might be necessary if Tuon finds herself in need of a teacher in the OP. Tuon might be "forced" to have an AS adviser.

 

I love these MoL's, so much speculation and hints. It was a brilliant idea!

[Terez]

Not to make it more plausible it's Nynaeve. I suspect that a lot of the logistics concerning the Seanchan won't be resolved until after the Battle is done, and have suspected that for a long time. It looks to be in Tuon's POV, but I'd like it better if it were in Nynaeve's POV (assuming it's Nynaeve).

[Tyler Glembo]

I think it is Egwene.  The reason I think so is because Egwene is a dreamer and in CoT dreams of a great mountain she is trying to climb.  She falls and is hanging on by her fingernails when a Seanchan woman grabs her arm and helps her up, saying that they had to work together to climb the mountain.  Egwene's dreams are not prophecy, but if the Mountain is the world then it would make sense for her to team up with Tuon in order to climb that mountain. 

 

Also, I can see a scene where Tuon and Eg meetup in aMoL and Egwene astutely comments on a situation, showing Tuon the truth of a thing.  Tuon then accepts the truth and proclaims Egwene Soe'feia. Especially if Egwene explains and convinces Tuon of the value of Aes Sedai and why a woman should not be collared.  In public.  Which would perfectly fit with a truth speaker telling an Empress exactly what she didn't want to hear in public and forcing the Empress to see the truth of something.

[skalors3]

@Terez It does sound like it is Tuon. We'll see soon. I can see many of your theories going either way, but this one seems far fetched to me. I could be wrong though.

[Aredeis]

@Terez Hmm, I can buy that.  Not sure i do, but I could :P I had previously been leaning toward thinking the Seanchan question would be one of the things we don't get closure for, I'm starting to doubt that idea though.

[skalors3]

@Adredeis I think we'll see some sort of closure before the LB. As we know from Avi's viewing, the only ones still fighting the Seachan are the Aiel. I think resolution of that conflict, along with maybe the release of Damanes, will be the closure we will see.

[Aredeis]

Sort of off on a tangent but I tend to think that at least one or two fairly major things won't get closure.  This seems so big that it should get resolved, but isn't really central to the story which in my mind makes it a good candidate to be left hanging.  I am starting to doubt it though.

[Terez]

@Terez Hmm, I can buy that.  Not sure i do, but I could :P I had previously been leaning toward thinking the Seanchan question would be one of the things we don't get closure for, I'm starting to doubt that idea though.

 

I think it will be somewhere in between. We'll get closure, but it won't be all neatly wrapped up in a bundle. I could see this being Nynaeve's last scene, especially if it's in her POV. A bit of mystification of her character for the end. Of course, I'm just speculating, but I could see it.

 

Sort of off on a tangent but I tend to think that at least one or two fairly major things won't get closure.  This seems so big that it should get resolved, but isn't really central to the story which in my mind makes it a good candidate to be left hanging.  I am starting to doubt it though.

 

RJ said that all the major plotlines will be resolved, and that only minor ones will be left hanging. But you could debate semantics on that. He also said he planned to put a 'hook' in the last scene, and Brandon confirmed that this is something RJ intended to explore in the outriggers. But the hook predates the outriggers by many years; it took him a while to be convinced by fans to actually continue the story. Brandon said the 'hook' was in the 'last scene' and it went in unchanged.

[Aredeis]

Yea, it certainly depends on where the line is drawn on major v minor plot lines.  Plus taking into account things getting partially resolved but still having some loose ends.  The hook is interesting too.  No idea right now on that.

[Terez]

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time

CHAPTER: The Reign of the High King

 

While the Firsts of Mayene claim descent from Hawkwing, through a grandson named Tyrn, there is no evidence that any of Hawkwing’s blood survived him, and all surviving contemporary records state clearly that none did. On the other hand, given the state of affairs after Hawkwing’s death, any living descendant of Hawkwing would have been hidden away as a matter of safety. Hawkwing met Tamika late in Free Year 964 on his return from the Aiel Waste and married her one year later. Several sources speak of the Tamika Poems, saying that they showed a man every bit as much in love as in the Amaline Poems, but of course none of them survive. Tamika can certainly be credited for Hawkwing’s return to his earlier policies toward the conquered lands, possibly for several refinements in administration and taxation added after Free Year 965, and thus in large part for Hawkwing’s reputation as a great ruler. Their first son, Luthair Paendrag Mondwin, was born in Free Year 967. They had either three more children or four, but we know almost nothing of them. At least tow of those children were daughters, for one commanded the “Shara expedition,” and a partial letter in the Royal Library in Cairhien says that “the great Hawkwing died less than an hour before the news arrived of the tragic deaths of his daughter Laiwynde and her son, the last of Hawkwing’s blood this side of the oceans.” Tamika herself died in Free Year 987; there is no record of the cause.

 

I wanted to go back to this because I think what RJ is trying to suggest in the BWB is that Ishamael himself saw to the extinction of Hawkwing's line. I'm sure it's not coincidental that the news of Laiwynde's death came an hour after his death; Ishamael also had a great deal to do with Hawkwing's own demise, in that he poisoned him against the Aes Sedai and therefore Healing. But he missed a grandson, somehow. And what this passage is saying is that, while contemporary accounts say none survived, they were dealing with imperfect information. They didn't know about Luthair, and their knowledge of Laiwynde's situation was probably minimal. Randland was caught up in the chaos of war for more than a hundred years after Hawkwing's death, and that was orchestrated by Ishamael too. This mock-scholarly account argues that the claim of the Firsts is plausible, and you might say that the representation of a 'scholarly' work is parallel to 19th Century scholarly work, which is far less rigorous than modern scholarly work. Certainly the 'author' of the BWB seems to miss the opportunity to connect some very bright dots, but of course that's where suspension of disbelief is required; we know they are Easter eggs for the reader, and that a scholar wouldn't have actually missed them.

[Gordar]

Does it really matter if Berelain is one of Hawkwing's descendants or not? If she made a claim for the throne, no matter if her claim was true or not, or even if she tried to raise her own position within the Seanchan Empire too fast, she'd simply end up dead. She'd be seen as competition & the blood have ways of dealing with potential dangers.

 

Tuon herself killed her own siblings because they were a threat, so I really don't think she'd allow another to become a real threat to her position.

 

Keep in mind that Tyrn sur Paendrag Mashera was the son of Laiwynde & that Laiwynde was born in FY 964, while Luthair Paendrag Mondwin was born in FY 967. This means that Berelain's claims are better than Fortuona or any of her ancestor's claim, if her ancestors were truly descended from Laiwynde (assuming the eldest child inherited & not the eldest son). 

 

Berelain will only be accepted and/or tolerated as long as she doesn't acquire too much power within the Seanchan Empire. As soon as she does, she becomes a threat, even to Fortuona herself.

[Terez]

No one is a threat to Fortuona's position simply by being a member of the Imperial Family. Tuon was a different story. Tylee seemed to think that Berelain was a shoo-in for a high place in the Empire, so long as she had no plans to overstep herself. Of course, Berelain said that she had no interest in ruling anything outside Mayene. Tuon would probably be content with that, though she might settle the area with some Seanchan pilgrims. And Berelain answers only to Tuon, just like any other ruler in Randland. It's not the Seanchan way, but they started making adaptations as soon as they invaded, and Tuon herself has made even more concessions and adaptations.

 

I don't expect Berelain to ask for a position in the Imperial Family. I expect Tuon to offer it. And considering Berelain's desperation to connect herself to a power that will protect her sovereignty, even without the three separate foreshadowings of Bald Berelain I'd say it was likely to happen. But the foreshadowings make it pretty concrete. Berelain will rule Mayene as she always wanted, and she will do it with more power than she ever imagined having. A member of the Imperial Family, second only to the Empress herself. It may be that her claim is stronger—hard to say, since first son customs are hardly unprecedented in WoT—but it doesn't really matter since Tuon's ancestor built an empire and Berelain's did not. And it helps that Mat is the only one of the three ta'veren Berelain didn't try to shag.

 

 

He saw Berelain coming toward him and grinned in spite of himself. For all her airs, she was a fine figure of a woman. That clinging white silk was thin enough for a handkerchief, not to mention being scooped low enough at the top to expose a considerable amount of excellent pale bosom.
   

He swept her his best bow, elegant and formal. "A good evening to you, my Lady." She started to sweep by without a glance, and he straightened angrily. "Are you deaf as well as blind, woman? I'm not a carpet to walk over, and I distinctly heard myself speak. If I pinch your bottom, you can slap my face, but until I do, I expect a civil word for a civil word!"
   

The First stopped dead, eyeing him in that way women had. She could have sewn him a shirt and told his weight, not to mention when he had his last bath, from that look. Then she turned away, murmuring something to herself. All he caught was "too much like me."
   

He stared after her in amazement. Not a word to him! That face, that walk, and her nose so far in the air it was a wonder her feet touched the ground. That was what he got, speaking to the likes of Berelain and Elayne. Nobles who thought you were dirt unless you had a palace and bloodlines back to Artur Hawkwing.

[Gordar]

I can see something like you just wrote happening, in one of the outriggers, but not in aMoL. The same applies to Tuon suddenly having a change of heart about channelers. I can accept that she'll let the channelers not within her territory uncollared after the second attack on the WT (which I believe will end in a big failure, at least according to Tuon), but she'd also forbid them from entering her country. Those channelers who are already collared will stay collared, probably for the rest of their lives.

 

It's like slavery in real life. Trans-Atlantic slave trade has been banned in the US since 1808 but in 1850 the Fugitive Slave Act was passed, which allowed southern slave owners to retrieve their escaped slaves, even if they fled to northern states. There was a war between 1861 and 65 (I think anyone who lives in the US knows that at least as well & probably even better than I do) & slavery was officially abolished.

 

Still, in 1963 Martin Luther King Jr. felt the need to have his 'I have a dream' speech. If everything had been ok by then mr. King probably wouldn't have felt the need to hold his speech. 

 

Like I already said, I can imagine that Tuon will allow Aes Sedai to walk around uncollared, as long as they stay out of her Empire, but I don't think we'll see many more changes in this last book. This might fit perfectly with Aviendha's vision.

 

The same applies to Berelain. Until the last battle has been fought & won, Tear, or any other nation will have other things on their minds than invading Mayene. I wouldn't even be surprised if Tear loses a lot of it's forces during the battle, since they don't really have much experience when it comes to fighting darkspawn and AFAIK they don't have outstanding generals either. So I assume that Mayene will be safe for years to come & there'd be no need for Berelain to swear fealty to Tuon.

 

I can foresee a few scenarios that might happen in an outrigger, assuming that one will be written.

 

1. Berelain swears to Tuon & nobody else. Tuon will have to appease the other High Blood in some way, otherwise it'll lead to jealousy & that wouldn't be a very healthy situation for Berelain or Tuon (advancing someone in such a way will offend the other High Blood & if Galgan can send assassins without repercussion then I think it's safe to say the other high blood might send (more skilled) assassins as well.)

 

2. Berelain becomes like all the other members of the High Blood. She might have a chance to survive, it wouldn't be much better than having to deal with Tear.

 

3. The bald statements are made out of spite (I have to admit I read the Dutch versions of the books up until ToM, so I'd first have to find the Dutch quotes & then I'd have to find the corresponding english quotes on the internet) & the foreshadowing is a red herring. or it means something entirely different.  

 

There's simply too little time left to add these things. I've read (on this board) that the LB alone will take 180 pages, then there's Merrilor & the preparation for the last battle (if there's still time for that) & probably a whole lot of things I'm currently not even thinking about.

 

 

Long story made short: Even though it is possible that Berelain will join the Seanchan or will at least swear fealty to Tuon in the future, I don't think it'll happen in aMoL.

[Terez]

I can see something like you just wrote happening, in one of the outriggers, but not in aMoL. The same applies to Tuon suddenly having a change of heart about channelers.

 

I think you will be surprised on January 8th.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Let's hope that surprise will be a good one. The Asha'man simply knuckling under Egwene and joining them in Tar Valon would be a disappointment, the Seanchan empire having an epiphany and ending the practice of damane within a couple of days or weeks would be a disappointment. By rights those changes should take years.

[Suttree]

True change doesn't happen overnight but in the case of Ashaman and AS there are many already bonded and after TG they will be extremely close from all the linking and working together. There will certainly not be any knuckling under(not sure why anyone would think that?) but I suspect this topic will be a ways farther along.

 

@Terez

 

I don't recall it but is there anything in text showing that the world doesn't take Berelein's claim seriously?

[b3arz3rg3r]

I just don't want things to happen too easily. Human beings are really stubborn about things like this, for the most we tend to fight change even when it's inevitable.

 

The Aes Sedai have 3,000 years of ingrained discrimination against men in their system to overcome. That isn't meant as an insult, I'm not saying every Aes Sedai is sexist, but their system has a clear bias in this direction. Aes Sedai are trained to think they are better than everyone around them. That's what all this serenity nonsense is all about, they learn to think that they stand beyond the concerns of regular people and in their world view the only equals they have are a few other women. Men at best are the hired help.

 

By the same token the men will have to overcome a 3,000 year old inferiority complex. Like every other group that has been discriminated against the men will have to struggle to gain equal standing with the Aes Sedai. What I meant by knuckling under was the popular theory that the Asha'man will immediately become male Aes Sedai again after TG and move in the tower Elaida had built. Instead I believe the Asha'man should find their own place in the world first. They have to decide what their role in the world is and not just accept the role others give them. If their slogan is "Defend. Guard. Protect." they have to define what that actually means and make others believe it too.

That's how things ought to be. And that struggle should take longer than the few weeks AMOL apart from the epilogue will cover.

 

Same for the Seanchan view on channellers. It's a culture that has grown over 1,000 years. By rights it shouldn't disappear so quickly.