Tuon Channels in KOD

[Suttree]

Here it is:

 

KoD Ch. 7

Joline took up the story. “Bethamin channeled. I’ve never before seen the weave she used, but for a few moments, until she lost the Source, she had sparks dancing all over the three of us. I think she may have used as much of the Power as she could draw.”

Sobs suddenly racked Bethamin. She sagged, halfway to falling to the floor. “I didn’t mean to,” she wept, shoulders shaking, face contorted. “I thought you were going to kill me. but I didn’t mean to. I didn’t.”

It is entirely possible an inexperienced channeler does such a thing without knowing what they are doing. I suppose it is ambigious but again if it was in their arsenal why don't we see it used in military settings?

[yoniy0]

Because it's only fitting against individuals, and that only matters if you're in a duel or fighting enemy channelers? We haven't seen many times were the Ever Victorious Army faced that sort of thing (the wondergirls' escape from Falme and Ebou Dar are the only instances I can think of, prior to TGS).

 

 

PS So it wasn't even Seta. I guess I should reread CoT.

[Sirfree]

Toun herself is vary capable fighter she has been training since a child.

[jedman67]

Even an experienced suldam has never channeled herself. We're still not quite sure how the average suldam would respond to direct channeling, instead of via a'dam. Suffice it to say, I don't believe that Tuon/Fortuana will ever willingly channel - her willpower is too strong.

[Whizbang]

She also said, later in Knife of Dreams, that she taught her damane healing after she learned it from the Aes Sedai damane she had. So, the knowledge at least is there. It is merely a combination of learning to embrace the source, and maybe practice to get some dexterity/confidence. I don't imagine that Tuon needs any more confidence, and dextertity would only take a couple of tries with an already known weave.

[Tsukibana]

'sides, Mat was wearing the Foxhead, and it goes cool at channeling around him. He'd have felt it.

[Suttree]

Whiz did she say that was how she taught it? Just as likely she could have been working with another sul'dam damane pair. I'll try and pull the quote later.

[Whizbang]

It leaves it open, of course. Here's the passage:

 

"Don't be foolish, Toy," she had drawled in his tent, standing over him, arms folded beneath her breasts, while Lopin and Nerim plied their needles and he gritted his teeth. Her proprietary air, very much a woman making sure her property was repaired properly, had been enough to make him grind his teeth, never mind the needles. Or that he was down to his smallclothes! She had just walked in and refused to leave short of manhandling, and he had felt in no condition to manhandle a woman he suspected might be able to break his arm. "This Healing is a wonderful thing. My Mylen knows it, and I taught it to my others, too. Of course, many people are follish about having the Power touch them. Half my servants would faint at the suggestion, and most of the Blood, too, I shouldn't be surprised. But I wouldn't have expected it of you." If she had a quarter his experience of Aes Sedai, she would have.

[Tsukibana]

I believe the "I taught it" line is akin to "I sent an email". No, you didn't: you used a computer which sent the e-mail. In the same way, I think Tuon used sul'dam/damane to teach this weave.

Obviously, she would have no problem thinking of other people as insignificant in the tasks she gives them. She's the quintessential boss that takes credit for what her employees do.

[Whizbang]

She personally trains those damane, though. She owns six damane. They are her personal property. Her favorite hobbies are training horses and damane. She didn't just tell another sul'dam to teach it, she held the leash herself.

[jedman67]

She personally trains those damane, though. She owns six damane. They are her personal property. Her favorite hobbies are training horses and damane. She didn't just tell another sul'dam to teach it, she held the leash herself.

Training damane is not just about channeling. From what i understand, an experienced suldam can "weave" or "channel" through her damane - much like how Nynave Delves Logain using Moggies power. It's Moggie channeling, but Nyn is the one directing the flows, forming the weaves, et al. an a'dam creates an involuntary link - the suldam controls the Source, but does not need to be embracing the Source herself.

So too, when training damane - experienced sul'dam can always "almost" see the weaving and channeling, they can make their new damane recreate the weaves and thereby the damane learn New Stuff.

[Tsukibana]

True on the weaving through another aspect of the a'dam, but that was Nyn's knowledge driving Moggie's power. Had she not KNOWN how to delve, she could not make Moggie do so. she could have ASKED (hah!) Moggie to delve him.

Inquiry: To truly answer the "I taught" question requires the question of just how much theoretical OP knowledge do Sul'dam have? Could an experienced Sul'dam drive her damane to try experimental weaves, or is the Seanchan channeling culture as stagnant and tradition bound as the rest of their culture? Do the sul'dam TRULY teach, or is it "see what she (an older damane) did;Now you do it"?

[Tsukibana]

@jedman, we never even see a hint of a Seanchan weaving through the damane. See above. and how does one "almost see" something so complicated that it makes "lightning bolts look like oat cake" and duplicate it? Given Healing's complexities (remember, Novices aren't even ALLOWED to try Healing, due to the massive fall-out of making a mistake), expecting someone who "almost sees" it to duplicate it is like expecting a legally deaf man to reproduce the subtle nuances of Carmina Burana.

[Whizbang]

Experienced sul-dam do see the weaves, they just are very good at pretending they do not. See all captured sul'dam and the efforts various people put into making them admit the see the weaves. See Seta and Bethamin learning to channel, especially the part where Seta hasn't admitted it yet, but covers her eyes whenever Joline is teaching Bethamin.

 

So, sul'dam, or at least those with a certain amount of experience (question mark on just how much/how long) can see the weaves. Whether they actively control the weaving through the damane is a little bit confusing. When Egwene was captured, it was strongly implied that Egwene controlled the flows, and the sul'dam just told her what to do (as in the instance of asking her to explode the tree, just after she was captured). This argues for the side that thinks sul'dam are more passive in the actual channeling. They instruct what to do, and the damane does it. But then we have Nyn and company controlling Mogi. This is clearly Nyn and company in complete control of the weaves. They couldn't even let Mogi demonstrate a weave to learn it. Mogi had to describe it and they had to do their best to figure out the weave. Then we also have Tuon leashing Joline in the wagon. She controlled when Joline embraced the source and when she did not. She also tried to channel something at Mat, and was surprised when the weaves melted. She didn't say "Joline, wrap Mat up in air." Tuon clearly saw and controlled the flows there.

[Tsukibana]

Good point on the Joline incident, Whiz.

Still does not answer HOW the damane are taught new weaves. The Joline incident begs the question of what happened to individual style

in the damane weaves. I specifically remember statements saying that once a person channels a weave a specific way, any other way is much more

difficult. (See Avi and Traveling).

Note: Nyn COULD have let Moggi demonstrate a weave, they just chose not too...

Sudden thought: If the leash holder can't actually channel (Renna and Egwene), it seems the damane is in control of HOW the weave takes shape; But if the leash-holder

CAN channel (Moggi and Nyna), we see the leash-holder in complete control of all aspects of the channeling (when to embrace/how to weave). Perhaps this lends credence to 

Tuon knowing how to channel.

[Whizbang]

Re: Second weave being more difficult

 

This does not apply if the sul'dam/leader of the circle is controlling the flows. Then only the sul'dam/leader of the circle is affected by the block. This is supported by the fact they needed the Seafolk Windfinders to lead the circle that used the Bowl of the Winds. The individual talents and shortcomings of the others in the circle didn't matter. They were merely there to lend strength to the leader. Same with sul'dam/damane. The individual skills of the damane do not come into play when the sul'dam assumes control. If the damane is the one in control, then yes.

 

This, however, is seemingly countered by the fact that captured Aes Sedai cannot use the power as a weapon. The sul'dam have tried forcing them and it doesn't work. If someone else was in control of the circle, then how would the Aes Sedai stop the channeling (even unconciously via the three oaths)? There are two options for the reason for this. Either a damane can refuse/stop a sul'dam's control of the weaves through force of will (if the three oaths force the stop in some way, there must be a way to do the same conciously), or most sul'dam cannot control the weaves, only tell the damane what to do and then punish failure and reward success. Perhaps only the most experienced/advanced sul'dam can actively control the flows. But even this doesn't make sense. Tuon clearly controls the flows through Joline. Yet, when thinking on her Aes Sedai damane, she thinks on the fact that she cannot be used in battle, but that her sky lights are pretty. The Aes Sedai (Mylen) cries when tuon says this to her. (I'll have to look up the passage)

 

So, not even Tuon (or obviously any sul'dam. I'd imagine even der'sul'dam attempted the feat) can force an Aes Sedai to indirectly break the oath by controlling the flows. This lends strength to the idea that a sufficiently strong willed damane could resist the control (maybe Egwene?).

 

In short, the sul'dam/damane relationship is very confusing.

[Tsukibana]

 

In short, the sul'dam/damane relationship is very confusing.

 

HAH!! understate much?

[jedman67]

@jedman, we never even see a hint of a Seanchan weaving through the damane. See above. and how does one "almost see" something so complicated that it makes "lightning bolts look like oat cake" and duplicate it? Given Healing's complexities (remember, Novices aren't even ALLOWED to try Healing, due to the massive fall-out of making a mistake), expecting someone who "almost sees" it to duplicate it is like expecting a legally deaf man to reproduce the subtle nuances of Carmina Burana.

when a suldam "almost" see's weaving or channeling, its as whizbang said - they do see the weaves, and the channeling, but they pretend that they do not. Only women who have either the ability to channel (spark/learned) or women who have the ability to learn to channel (but will never touch the source otherwise) can be damane or suldam. since the "learners" can't actually channel without guidance, it seems clear to me that they usually pass the damane test, and end up becoming suldam. experience suldam do channel, unconsciously, simply because of their long practice holding the adam. 

An experienced suldam knows how to form the weaves through her damane, and a trainer-suldam would likely recreate the more complex weaves by channeling through the damane. By "making" the weaves, even if forced, it likely accelerates the learning process. Inexperienced suldam would make damane A show damane B the weaves instead.

[Hagazussa]

So, sul'dam, or at least those with a certain amount of experience (question mark on just how much/how long) can see the weaves. Whether they actively control the weaving through the damane is a little bit confusing. When Egwene was captured, it was strongly implied that Egwene controlled the flows, and the sul'dam just told her what to do (as in the instance of asking her to explode the tree, just after she was captured).

 

I think they can do both, that a sul'dam can both give orders for the damane to do things but also use her just as a conduit, it is possible though that since the former seam to be more common that it is just plain easier than to completely control the damane's channeling.

 

As for the the using the Power as a weapon problem, would that work in a normal circle. I mean if Aes Sedai Alice linked with wilder Beth and Beth decided to just blast a village to bits could Alice still be able to be part of the circle or would she drop out or would the three oaths in other ways prevent her for participating? I mean with the oaths it is not so much willpower that prevent the Aes Sedai from breaking them, it is that she is physically unable to. If you take an Aes Sedai and give her a blue pen and tell her to say it is green she just can not do it no matter how much you try to make her want to lie. You can have her tortured within an inch of her life, she will not be able to do it, you can have her raped by a fist of trollocs unless she say that pen is green and she will not be able to do it and you can hack away pieces of her connection to the Source slowly and she will not be able to lie to stop it. It is not like someone just being strong willed enough not to go against their oaths, what we have when someone tries to force and Aes Sedai through the a'dam to use the Power as a weapon is one effect of the One Power going up against another, not one effect going up against some individual will.

[jedman67]

An addendum, Tuon can train damane and horses - its not all about the power, its like dog trainers dont need to be dogs in order to trian them.

[tube_ee]

So too, when training damane - experienced sul'dam can always "almost" see the weaving and channeling, they can make their new damane recreate the weaves and thereby the damane learn New Stuff.

Training damane is not just about channeling. From what i understand, an experienced suldam can "weave" or "channel" through her damane - much like how Nynave Delves Logain using Moggies power. It's Moggie channeling, but Nyn is the one directing the flows, forming the weaves, et al. an a'dam creates an involuntary link - the suldam controls the Source, but does not need to be embracing the Source herself.

 

 

 

We should be careful drawing conclusions about Seanchan a'dam from Nynaeve / Elayne a'dam experiences. That a'dam was different... not only did it have no leash, (and we're told often that the physcial configuration of a ter'angreal is critical to its function,) but it was based on Nynaeve's World of Dreams a'dam... which worked how she thought an a'dam would work... which may not be very accurate, given that she'd worn one once, for about a minute.

 

The two devices may have significant differences, and ther's nothing in the text to say one way or the other.

 

--Shannon

[Whizbang]

^^ I disagree about the a'dam Nyn and Elayne had being significantly different than the Seanchan ones.

 

Yes, the TAR one might have been different, as it was based on Nyn's own knowledge of the a'dam, which is limited. But the real-world one was based off Elayne's study of the a'dam they had in their possesion. Elayne had said before this that she thought she could make one, and that she didn't think the leash was required. Maybe the lack of a leash did change it... Maybe, but I don't think so. She said it was actually pretty simple, and figuring out how to make it opened up the world of ter'angreal for her. So, of all the ter'angreal we've seen, I think it is safe to say the a'dam is the simplest and easiest to make. If she said that the leash wasn't required, then she probably said this because there were no weaves in the chain. Weaves in the collar and the bracelet, sure, but nothing in the chain.

[Hagazussa]

Well since before the events of the books a'dam are the only ter'angreal that are still being made I do think it is safe to say that it is the simplest one to make or at least that it is a rather simple one since all it do is drag someone into an unwilling link and then have a few added safety mechanisms added like not being able to touch something the damane see as a weapon.

 

Do not Renna actually say that many sul'dam could see weaves, she do not state it directly but she say something like experienced sul'am knowing what a damane is doing and that is pretty close.

[jedman67]

^^ I disagree about the a'dam Nyn and Elayne had being significantly different than the Seanchan ones.

 

Yes, the TAR one might have been different, as it was based on Nyn's own knowledge of the a'dam, which is limited. But the real-world one was based off Elayne's study of the a'dam they had in their possesion. Elayne had said before this that she thought she could make one, and that she didn't think the leash was required. Maybe the lack of a leash did change it... Maybe, but I don't think so. She said it was actually pretty simple, and figuring out how to make it opened up the world of ter'angreal for her. So, of all the ter'angreal we've seen, I think it is safe to say the a'dam is the simplest and easiest to make. If she said that the leash wasn't required, then she probably said this because there were no weaves in the chain. Weaves in the collar and the bracelet, sure, but nothing in the chain.

I dont believe its the simplest just because its the most replicated. Back in the AoL, there was likely a Binder in every courthouse in the world; and since there was an AS chapter house in every major city, there were likely dozens of Binders. Being that crime had been virtually eliminated, I would assume there werent too many courts of law, but certainly a few. We know of two which survived the breaking, which is more to say than than most other terangreal we've heard about.

The reason why there are so many adam is because of need - the Seanchan don't realize its a terangreal, they just know its a leash and how it works (roughly). They train damane to learn their Talents and skills, and those who have the Talent of making terangreal - like Elayne - reproduce the adam for the EVA and the Empress (MSLF).

[Whizbang]

The Seanchan can make a'dam. They are not a remnant of the AoL. An Aes Sedai on Seanchan invented them sometime after Luthar Pendrag landed and took control. This Aes Sedai was then later leashed herself.

 

So, based on the fact that a post-breaking Aes Sedai invented it, and that they are reproduced by Seanchan, and then easily figured out by Elayne, says that they are relatively simple.