A question on strength and dexterity

[Suttree]

I think the greatest proof so far that dexterity and knowledge can sometimes trump strength is Cyndane vs Alivia. She was using angreal and ter'angreal, and was still beaten, despite being of near equal strength.

 

Personally, I absolutely loved that. I don't like to think that strength is everything; hell, I still like to hold on to the belief that Nynaeve could defeat Alivia, and Egwene could take Sharina.

That's a good way to look at it. To highlight your point further Alivia wasn't equal in strength with Cyndane. Alivia was a good deal stronger.

[fionwe1987]

 

I think the greatest proof so far that dexterity and knowledge can sometimes trump strength is Cyndane vs Alivia. She was using angreal and ter'angreal, and was still beaten, despite being of near equal strength.

 

Personally, I absolutely loved that. I don't like to think that strength is everything; hell, I still like to hold on to the belief that Nynaeve could defeat Alivia, and Egwene could take Sharina.

That's a good way to look at it. To highlight your point further Alivia wasn't equal in strength with Cyndane. Alivia was a good deal stronger.

 

I think he was saying that unaided, Alivia is nearly equal in strength to Cyndane (likely stronger, and as strong as Lanfear, but we can't be sure). With an angreal as strong as Nynaeve's , she was many times stronger than Cyndane. Elayne calls an agreal that doubles your strength "weak". Nynaeve's bracelet is much stronger. We don't know by how much.

[John Everyman]

 

 

I think the greatest proof so far that dexterity and knowledge can sometimes trump strength is Cyndane vs Alivia. She was using angreal and ter'angreal, and was still beaten, despite being of near equal strength.

 

Personally, I absolutely loved that. I don't like to think that strength is everything; hell, I still like to hold on to the belief that Nynaeve could defeat Alivia, and Egwene could take Sharina.

That's a good way to look at it. To highlight your point further Alivia wasn't equal in strength with Cyndane. Alivia was a good deal stronger.

 

I think he was saying that unaided, Alivia is nearly equal in strength to Cyndane (likely stronger, and as strong as Lanfear, but we can't be sure). With an angreal as strong as Nynaeve's , she was many times stronger than Cyndane. Elayne calls an agreal that doubles your strength "weak". Nynaeve's bracelet is much stronger. We don't know by how much.

 

 

Pretty much what I was going to say (even down to the Elayne example).  Plus there's also Moiraine, who was using a higher ranged one, but was able to make walls of fire that killed hundreds of trollocs and stand up briefly to Aginor, someone surely many times stronger.  I definitely think angreal have been established in WOT to be more than small power boosts, but true amplifiers. 

[XoMeltdownoX]

Both Rand and Demandred can block a closing Gateway. I don't think it is a Talent (unless they have a Talent with Gateways in general), but a combination of Dexterity and Strength.

[Nightstrike]

 

 

I think the greatest proof so far that dexterity and knowledge can sometimes trump strength is Cyndane vs Alivia. She was using angreal and ter'angreal, and was still beaten, despite being of near equal strength.

 

Personally, I absolutely loved that. I don't like to think that strength is everything; hell, I still like to hold on to the belief that Nynaeve could defeat Alivia, and Egwene could take Sharina.

That's a good way to look at it. To highlight your point further Alivia wasn't equal in strength with Cyndane. Alivia was a good deal stronger.

 

I think he was saying that unaided, Alivia is nearly equal in strength to Cyndane (likely stronger, and as strong as Lanfear, but we can't be sure). With an angreal as strong as Nynaeve's , she was many times stronger than Cyndane. Elayne calls an agreal that doubles your strength "weak". Nynaeve's bracelet is much stronger. We don't know by how much.

 

She would have been at least 2-2.5 times as strong as she would have been without angreal, but I don't think we can be sure she was "many" times stronger than Cyndane. Alivia was trained by sul'dam (like Egwene) , and they aren't known to be great duellers. Alivia couldn't invert her weaves (wasn't even aware of the possibility, most likely), and Cyndane would definitely have been defeated without that knowledge. They are both women, and they could both have great potential for becoming dexterious, even though Alivia might never have realized that potential for becoming a great dueller. Talaan and Nynaeve were drilled, especially Talaan (who was drilled by several people over several days). Dexterity is mentioned in relation to the difference between men and women.

[Suttree]

Just a general note, we have zero evidence that Talaan was trained before, nor do we have evidence that the people working with the WFs before Nyn even touched on shielding aside from this day. In fact the WFs specifcally reference things Nyn told them about shielding, not other AS.

[Nightstrike]

It's mentioned they'd drilled several days and used several Aes Sedai to learn. Talaan is the one who had to suffer the work.

[Nightstrike]

Nynaeve POV - Nynaeve is giving a lesson to Talaan while Zaida and six Windfinders look on. They are Senine din Ryal, Shielyn, Rainyn, Kurin, Caire and Tebreille. Nynaeve is glad that Renaile is not there. She is the worst. They sometimes use Merilille as the subject for their lessons. Vandene refuses to give any lessons now that she has Kirstian and Zarya. Careane gave lessons yesterday. Sareitha was supposed to give lessons but she slipped out of the palace on urgent business.³Nynaeve attacks Talaan and successfully shields her. The next time, Talaan slips Nynaeve's shield and shields her instead. Zaida tells her to hold whereupon the other Windfinders form a circle and link. Zaida then tests Nynaeve's word that she cannot break the shield by threatening to have Talaan turn her upside down. Nynaeve fights and, for the first time, detects a soft spot on the shield, but she cannot break free. Zaida finally believes her and has Talaan release her. The lesson is over. As Nynaeve leaves she runs into Alivia. Alivia says Reanne Corly sent her to tell Nynaeve to join her, Sumeko Karistovan, Chilares Arman and Famelle Juarde at dinner. She adds that they ought to be learning from her. She is a much better weapon than even the Asha'man. Nynaeve declines the invitation and Alivia leaves. Nynaeve is sure that the Kin invited her to dinner to lecture her on dealing with the Windfinders. As she walks back to her rooms, Talaan catches up to her. She begs Nynaeve to take her to the White Tower as a novice. Per Egwene, there are only three Sea Folk Aes Sedai and they are weak.⁴Talaan says that because of her family she is constantly punished to avoid any semblance of favoritism.

 

 

Quote function is still messed up.

[Suttree]

None of that does a thing to back up your point tha Talaan is always receiving lessons(which cover a huge range of subjects) with the others or that they ever even worked specifcially on shielding before that day. In fact as I pointed out above the wording they use with Nyn suggest this is the first time. Further people need to stop using fan sites and back quotes up with text. If this is your take dive into the books and prove it.

[Nightstrike]

None of that does a thing to back up your point tha Talaan is always receiving lessons(which cover a huge range of subjects) with the others or that they ever even worked specifcially on shielding before that day. In fact as I pointed out above the wording they use with Nyn suggest this is the first time. Further people need to stop using fan sites and back quotes up with text. If this is your take dive into the books and prove it.

There is no reason to suspect they haven't, especially since Talaan is judged so harshly. Bold: what wording is that?

[Suttree]

 

None of that does a thing to back up your point tha Talaan is always receiving lessons(which cover a huge range of subjects) with the others or that they ever even worked specifcially on shielding before that day. In fact as I pointed out above the wording they use with Nyn suggest this is the first time. Further people need to stop using fan sites and back quotes up with text. If this is your take dive into the books and prove it.

There is no reason to suspect they haven't, especially since Talaan is judged so harshly. Bold: what wording is that?

 

The fact that they specifically reference things Nyn told them about it as if it is the first time they are hearing the info as I stated above. Second when you make a claim like the one you do  about them training Talaan and working on shielding in those other sessions(which it says nothing about in the text) the burden of proof is on you to support your claim, that is quite simply the way it works. Is is a fallacy to say "there is no reason to suspsect they haven't".

 

As for Talaan we know why she is judged harshly and according to the text it's because of who her family is. It has nothing to do with that particular lesson.

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, and that is why one would expect they'd have her drilled until exhaustion each day. Where does Nynaeve say it's the first time they hear about it?

[Suttree]

 Where does Nynaeve say it's the first time they hear about it?

That isn't what I said, regardless support your theory that they have been specifically working with shielding for days with Talaan qith quotes please. I'm actually interested to see you try and prove how you reached that position.

[Nightstrike]

It's a reasonable assumption based on what was said in WH, chapter 11. There's no reason to say it's not happened, and every reason to assume it did. We know Nynaeve has been drilled in duelling, and that she's duelled in real situations. We have less reason to assume Egwene has any similar experiences than we have assuming Talaan was drilled during more than one day.

 

As for being skilled and strong, Egwene still can't heal much more than bruising. She could be bad at shielding too. The thing we do know is that Egwene places Nynaeve's abilities with duelling higher, and that Nynaeve is much stronger. The rest is wishful thinking on your part.

[avernite]

Ah, I remembered something; Rand vs Lanfear. We know Lanfear is just about the strongest a woman can be, and we assume Rand pre-epiphany must have had close to the maximum a man can have.

 

At the battle with Lanfear (TFoH, chapter 52), however, we can be pretty sure he's weaker than that. Still, he says he could normally easily use 'ten weaves or more' (retranslated quote). More tellingly, he claims LTT is trying to tell him how to BEAT her. Despite Lanfear having an angreal. Now, Rand may just be plain wrong there, but it implies Rand CAN beat the strongest women wielding an angreal.

 

To me, that implies in battle, the strongest men can beat the strongest women.

[Suttree]

It's a reasonable assumption based on what was said in WH, chapter 11. There's no reason to say it's not happened, and every reason to assume it did.

Ahhh excellant, from now on when I'm questioned on a theory I present that has no  textual evidence to support it I'll ust say "There's no reason to say it's not happened,". Nevermind that it's close to a classic "argumentum ad ignorantiam" fallacy.

 

Have a good afternoon Nightstrike.

[Nightstrike]

I think it's reasonable, and you claimed something was said that would make it the first time. Even so, we have no reason to assume Egwene is better with shielding than she's with healing. Egwene places Nynave's abilities higher, and we do know for a fact that Nynaeve is much stronger. The rest is wishful thinking on your part. Sure, both Egwene and Alivia have been trained by Seanchan, but they are no duellers.

[fionwe1987]

Ah, I remembered something; Rand vs Lanfear. We know Lanfear is just about the strongest a woman can be, and we assume Rand pre-epiphany must have had close to the maximum a man can have.

 

At the battle with Lanfear (TFoH, chapter 52), however, we can be pretty sure he's weaker than that. Still, he says he could normally easily use 'ten weaves or more' (retranslated quote). More tellingly, he claims LTT is trying to tell him how to BEAT her. Despite Lanfear having an angreal. Now, Rand may just be plain wrong there, but it implies Rand CAN beat the strongest women wielding an angreal.

 

To me, that implies in battle, the strongest men can beat the strongest women.

Several things to note there. Rand also has an angreal. And while he was refusing to kill Lanfear, she was also only toying with him, not trying to kill him. While sure, LTT could have come up with weaves to kill Lanfear, she could have done the same to kill him. They were both holding back, and Lanfear was owning Rand's ass.

 

Oh, and... Nynaeve has now been drilled in dueling eh? Does she have unicorns and fairies too?

[Suttree]

Oh, and... Nynaeve has now been drilled in dueling eh? Does she have unicorns and fairies too?

@Fionwe

 

I knew it was a mistake to engage again. Just whistle and back away slowly

[Durinax]

 

Oh, and... Nynaeve has now been drilled in dueling eh? Does she have unicorns and fairies too?

@Fionwe

 

I knew it was a mistake to engage again. Just whistle and back away slowly

 

you have to admit that she has more 'drilling' in duels than egwene has, especially after the talaan bits

[avernite]

 

Ah, I remembered something; Rand vs Lanfear. We know Lanfear is just about the strongest a woman can be, and we assume Rand pre-epiphany must have had close to the maximum a man can have.

 

At the battle with Lanfear (TFoH, chapter 52), however, we can be pretty sure he's weaker than that. Still, he says he could normally easily use 'ten weaves or more' (retranslated quote). More tellingly, he claims LTT is trying to tell him how to BEAT her. Despite Lanfear having an angreal. Now, Rand may just be plain wrong there, but it implies Rand CAN beat the strongest women wielding an angreal.

 

To me, that implies in battle, the strongest men can beat the strongest women.

Several things to note there. Rand also has an angreal. And while he was refusing to kill Lanfear, she was also only toying with him, not trying to kill him. While sure, LTT could have come up with weaves to kill Lanfear, she could have done the same to kill him. They were both holding back, and Lanfear was owning Rand's ass.

 

 

Well, Rand did think about LTT's abilities to beat her at the very beginning of the fight (when he has just rescued Avi and Egwene from being squeezed out), which implies it's pre-toying.

 

Second, I don't see specific mention of the angreal in that fight. I know he had one at the time, but I'm not sure he was using it. Just Moiraines 'Unless Rand had an angreal too, she could crush him with that. Either he had one, or Lanfear was playing with him'. On which note, I do not know which of the two.

[Nightstrike]

 

Oh, and... Nynaeve has now been drilled in dueling eh? Does she have unicorns and fairies too?

 

We know that she met Moggy, and drilled with Talaan, and that's more than we know of Egwene's proposed training and/or inherit skill. She's not skilled/Talented and trained with every weave. She can't Heal, for instance. If we'd not known whether she could or not, then why should we assume "Egwene is so good with Balefire/other that she must be able to Heal like the best".  What we DO know is that she places Nynaeve above herself, and that she's much weaker than Nynaeve. That's it.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

Oh, and... Nynaeve has now been drilled in dueling eh? Does she have unicorns and fairies too?

@Fionwe

 

I knew it was a mistake to engage again. Just whistle and back away slowly

 

you have to admit that she has more 'drilling' in duels than egwene has, especially after the talaan bits

 

 

He has to do nothing of the sort. Getting beaten by your student trying for the first time what you already know is not "drilling", last I heard.

[Suttree]

 

 

Oh, and... Nynaeve has now been drilled in dueling eh? Does she have unicorns and fairies too?

@Fionwe

 

I knew it was a mistake to engage again. Just whistle and back away slowly

 

you have to admit that she has more 'drilling' in duels than egwene has, especially after the talaan bits

 

An hour of channeling with Talaan(getting spanked once Talaan gets a basic understanding) on top of the one with Mogi that wasn't even a duel but a strength on strenght "arm wrestle" is "drilled in dueling" now?

[fionwe1987]

 

 

Well, Rand did think about LTT's abilities to beat her at the very beginning of the fight (when he has just rescued Avi and Egwene from being squeezed out), which implies it's pre-toying.

 

No, he thinks of killing her at the end of the fight, when she was toying with him. In the beginning, she tries to kill him, and he was barely able to cut off her weaves to stop that. Then he tries to club her with Air. Then she attacks his connection to the source after she says he will "die slowly". And only then does LTT start giving suggestions, which Rand ignores.

 

Second, I don't see specific mention of the angreal in that fight. I know he had one at the time, but I'm not sure he was using it. Just Moiraines 'Unless Rand had an angreal too, she could crush him with that. Either he had one, or Lanfear was playing with him'. On which note, I do not know which of the two.

 

Its mentioned. I'm tired of people misremembering things. Rand specifically draws from his angreal, just before Lanfear finds hers, and he even marvels that her shields were still coming close to severing him even though he's using an angreal. What he doesn't know is that right around that time, Lanfear starts using the angreal she finds in the wagon bed too. If you don't remember, go read the book.