Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

[Suttree]

i do believe that counting  this as the main proof to Nyn < skilled / dexterous then Eggy is a stretch. 

It hasn't bveen counted as the "main" evidence. It is just one example of many throughout the series. Egwene is presented as far more skilled in all else besides healing time and again. Somewhat shocked it is even being debated.

[elric]

no one argue that Eggy is VERY skilled and dexterous

 

no one argue she is one of the MOST SKILLED AS in this generation (or even any generation).

 

where does it show that Nyn isnt one as well ?

is her ability to pull miracles that AOL AS wasnt able to is such a sign ?

is her passing the probably most difficult testing in the last 200 years or so, a testing where several of the tester tried to break her and force her to fail ?

 

and btw about Taleene and Nyn fight -> Taleene use wrestling skill in this fight and it clearly said that she know how to wrestle while as far as i know Nyn never learn any type of martial art (if anyone have PDF version of WH feel free to post the "it like wrestling kid , and u know how to wrestle" quote), so it was less about OP skjill and dextirity and more about general fighting skill (between 2 channeler of roughly SAME streangth).

 

a small out of topic remark:

it was mentioned earlier in this debate woman are better at Tar then man ->i wonder what Perrin the REAL LORD of Tar think of that :))))

[Suttree]

and btw about Taleene and Nyn fight -> Taleene use wrestling skill in this fight and it clearly said that she know how to wrestle while as far as i know Nyn never learn any type of martial art (if anyone have PDF version of WH feel free to post the "it like wrestling kid , and u know how to wrestle" quote), so it was less about OP skjill and dextirity and more about general fighting skill (between 2 channeler of roughly SAME streangth).

Not sure how you would reach this conclusion? Being able to wrestle in real life would help Talaan in that fight about as much as being able to juggle would help Egwene do what she did when she split the flows in that impressive display quoted earlier.

[Entreri]

 

 

And this dexterity argument is nonsense. A boxing analogy:

 

IBF Champions super middleweight Carl Froch (167 lbs) versus heavyweight Wladimir Kitschko (242 lbs). They are separated by three weight classes (or "levels").

 

Unless you've been hit in the head by a bus, you likely agree that Klitschko wins in a matter of seconds.

Yes totally absurd. A smaller guy like Roy Jones Jr. could never beat a heavyweight with his dexterity! Errr wait....

 

Also if you are going to pick a decent super middle go with Andre Ward, not that scrub Froch.

 

 

How would Kitschko fare against the world's best martial artist, even if he weighs 50 lbs less? 

 

Meh.  If it is closer to a real fight, Anderson Silva would beat all of them.

[Suttree]

Wow. Eight fricking pages of this discussion without some major relevant quotes? What's happening here?

 

First, and most important, here is RJ's comparative assessment of Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve:

 

Yes, Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene could pass the test for Aes Sedai with their current abilities, though Nynaeve might be a little hard pressed. Too much specialization.

Unfortunately that is the mode of operation around here all too often lately. Asserted opinions with little to no evidence in backing it up. As an aside great quote from RJ, it not only supports our side but also perfectly highlights what we have been saying the text suggests.

 

Edit: Ok whats the deal with this new quote system? Is there a section anywhere talking about how it works?

[elric]

Suit

 

it was said so in the book

Nyn won 1st round.

the sea falk watching told Tal ->" she use your power against u, it like wrestling and u know how to wrestle" -> Tal won the next 2 rounds.

 

Ent

i will bet on GSP against Silva every day of the week  and twice on sunday :)

and on Frank Shemrok against any of them but under UFC 1-10 rules (the everything go rules)

[Suttree]

Suit

 

it was said so in the book

Nyn won 1st round.

the sea falk watching told Tal ->" she use your power against u, it like wrestling and u know how to wrestle" -> Tal won the next 2 rounds.

Sorry mate, maybe it is a language thing but that is a far too literal interpretation. All that comment did was help her to think about using dexterity and leverage with her channeling instead of brute strength. What you are doing is supporting our side in showing that Nyn was not dexterous enough with her weaves to do the same. It has absolutely nothing to do with general fighting skill and everything to do with channeling.

[Entreri]

The most important part of that RJ quote is "current abilities".  Back then, Nyaneve had difficulty getting saidar.

 

In ToM, what we see is Egwene calling the 100 weaves for the test "very complex", italicized in the books for emphasis.  Nyaneve POV shows that she thought nothing of it.

This strongely implies their relative skill at the OP. 

 

Just before this scene, we see than Elayne was amazed at the complexity of Egwene's weave, Nyaneve was not impressed in the least.   Clearly Nyaneve skills with the OP are far greater than Elayne's. 

 

Yes, Nyaneve would wreck Egwene. 

[Suttree]

The most important part of that RJ quote is "current abilities".  Back then, Nyaneve had difficulty getting saidar.

That RJ quote came after KoD...

 

Also it is always funny how you take a wild guess such as "Nyn was not impressed in the least"(when she was clearly studying) and state it as fact, or how you take a throwaway comment warning Nyn(it says nothing about Egwene's own skill) and try to make it "strongly imply" Egwene doesn't know what she is doing. Basically you take certain lines, twist them to your meaning and ignore the vast majority of in series evidence along with author quotes. That doesn't really help your cause in the slightest.

[Barid Bel Medar]

What I find baffling is why we are pitting Nynaeve against Egwene in the first place. Since when are they likely to duel to the death? 

 

It is a strange scenario with no real answer in any case. They are close enough that it could go either way. Both of them have strengths and weaknesses, and in a battle, theory isn't really applicable. Like the saying in FoH, (paraphrasing) "all plans are prefect until the first arrow falls". There are just too many factors involved in a potential fight and the gap too narrow to come up with a definitive answer. It's not like it's Lanfear v Morgase, they both have merits and flaws. 

 

So I think really the better question would be "What type of combat are they suited for". In which case, again, Egwene = destroyer. Nynaeve = duellist. 

[avernite]

It should be noted that the RJ quote mentions PASSING the test. Not surviving it.

 

The books themselves show WHY Nynaeve nearly did not pass: because she trained her channelling, but didn't train 'being calm' which is also a part of Aes Sedai training, and one Egwene and Elayne are pretty good at (and which, in some situations, IS important). It's darn obvious that Nynaeve had not nearly as much trouble with the channeling part.

[Entreri]

Suit

 

it was said so in the book

Nyn won 1st round.

the sea falk watching told Tal ->" she use your power against u, it like wrestling and u know how to wrestle" -> Tal won the next 2 rounds.

 

Ent

i will bet on GSP against Silva every day of the week  and twice on sunday :)

and on Frank Shemrok against any of them but under UFC 1-10 rules (the everything go rules)

 

As a Canadian and fan of GSP, I would bet on GSP only at 170 (Anderson will be so drained from the cut, he will lose his strength), GSP will completely manhandle him.  

 

Anderson Silva is a wrecking machine, taking out 6'4" 230-240 pound Light Heavy Weights...most of them full of steriods (1 weight class above Silva's, this is approx 2 boxing weight classes above) in a few seconds like they are complete trash.

 

Silva took out Vitor Belfort via Karate Kid kick, Mr Anderson Matrixed 6'4" Forrest Griffin (KO'ed), Double Dragon kicked Sonnen (that was such a brutal kick)...

 

GSP and Silva overall are nearly equally skilled, given this, the bigger/stronger fighter will always win. 

[Entreri]

 

The most important part of that RJ quote is "current abilities".  Back then, Nyaneve had difficulty getting saidar.

That RJ quote came after KoD...

 

Also it is always funny how you take a wild guess such as "Nyn was not impressed in the least"(when she was clearly studying) and state it as fact, or how you take a throwaway comment warning Nyn(it says nothing about Egwene's own skill) and try to make it "strongly imply" Egwene doesn't know what she is doing. Basically you take certain lines, twist them to your meaning and ignore the vast majority of in series evidence along with author quotes. That doesn't really help your cause in the slightest.

 

Then clearly this quote cannot refer to Nyaneves skills in the Power, which are above Egwene.   

 

You take things too personally, Egwene is merely a character in a book, even though she is your favourite. 

[Suttree]

So I think really the better question would be "What type of combat are they suited for". In which case, again, Egwene = destroyer. Nynaeve = duellist. 

I can go with this for the most part, for me at this point I'm really debating because people are so over blowing Nyn's overall knowledge and skill aside from healing. We know for certain she doesn't really have it and more so has showed zero interest in modifying weaves etc outside of her area of expertise. Fionwe's ward example was  a very good one earlier in highlighting how Egwene has a much wider skill set.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Lets not go into personal preferences again. Keep the debate on the subject not the poster. 

[Suttree]

Then clearly this quote cannot refer to Nyaneves skills in the Power, which are above Egwene.   

 

You take things too personally, Egwene is merely a character in a book, even though she is your favourite. 

Ahh since you know very well she isn't in my top 5(we have had that discussion a number of times) it's back to a personnel attack I see. Luckers just cut you off the other day when you attempted to do the same. Wonder why you have trouble debating without resorting to lowest common denominator digs any time someone questions you? I see you edited it as well, you really felt the need to go back in and add an attack?

 

As for the rest read the RJ quote, it refers exactly to channeling and the test. Are you seriously saying since it doesn't agree with you then RJ is wrong?

[avernite]

 

So I think really the better question would be "What type of combat are they suited for". In which case, again, Egwene = destroyer. Nynaeve = duellist. 

I can go with this for the most part, for me at this point I'm really debating because people are so over blowing Nyn's overall knowledge and skill aside from healing. We know for certain she doesn't really have it and more so has showed zero interest in modifying weaves etc outside of her area of expertise. Fionwe's ward example was  a very good one earlier in highlighting how Egwene has a much wider skill set.

 

This relies on knowing how close her compulsion/madness thing actually is to healing; It seems to have a stronger Spirit component, but there seems to be some healing involved...

 

If it's more a Compulsion-type Talent, it shows Nynaeve specializing in at least one other skill.

[Entreri]

Here are the lines:

 

"I'll do the test...Egwene blinked in surprise.  Nyaneve, these are very complex weaves....Nynaeve shrugged again. The hundred testing weaves aren't so bad.  I could show them to you right here, if you wanted me to" . 

 

Nynaeve has done things with the power that were thought to be impossible.  Egwene? Nothing.

 

Nynaeve is more skilled in the Power, much stronger in the Power.  Very complex weaves are nothing to her.  Even experience wise, as mentioned above, Nyaneve has more.    Only edge I might give Egwene is in dexterity and possibly a slight edge in mental fortitude. 

 

When somebody has you beat in both skills and strength, GAME OVER.

[Suttree]

Here are the lines:

 

"I'll do the test...Egwene blinked in surprise.  Nyaneve, these are very complex weaves....Nynaeve shrugged again. The hundred testing weaves aren't so bad.  I could show them to you right here, if you wanted me to" . 

Yes and exactly as I said Egwene is trying to warn her and it shows nothing about her own skill, we also know Nyn had been memorizing(in an offhand manner, not trying to learn anything about the weaves, just straight up memorizing for a teacher as has been explained to you numerous times). Taking those things and making a grand canyon sized leap to where you try and go is ridiculous. In addition to what people said earlier in the thread go back and read Fionwe's post. Not that it was even needed but it quite clearly shuts down your theory here about what the weaves mean. On top of that we have an RJ quote which invalidates your claim and backs up what we are saying about Nyn being too "specialized".

[Entreri]

 

Then clearly this quote cannot refer to Nyaneves skills in the Power, which are above Egwene.   

 

You take things too personally, Egwene is merely a character in a book, even though she is your favourite. 

Ahh since you know very well she isn't in my top 5(we have had that discussion a number of times) it's back to a personnel attack I see. Luckers just cut you off the other day when you attempted to do the same. Wonder why you have trouble debating without resorting to lowest common denominator digs any time someone questions you? I see you edited it as well, you really felt the need to go back in and add an attack?

 

As for the rest read the quote, it refers exactly to channeling and the test.

Admittedly I don't look much, but whenever I see an Egwene thread you are there with at least a dozen of post.  If she is not your favourite character, I certainly would not want to see the favourite.  Actually no, Luckers cut us both off.  I don't do personal attacks and I don't see why asking who's your favourite character as a personal attack?   I certainly hope you never visit a couple of other message boards I sometimes frequent...if somebody had no sense of humor, they will be calling the cops at least several dozen times.  

 

I edited because I typed Egwene instead of Nynaeve, you can ask Luckers to find that out. 

[Entreri]

 

Here are the lines:

 

"I'll do the test...Egwene blinked in surprise.  Nyaneve, these are very complex weaves....Nynaeve shrugged again. The hundred testing weaves aren't so bad.  I could show them to you right here, if you wanted me to" . 

Yes and exactly as I said Egwene is trying to warn her and it shows nothing about her own skill, we also know Nyn had been memorizing(in an offhand manner, not trying to learn anything about the weaves, just straight up memorizing for a teacher as has been explained to you numerous times). Taking those things and making a grand canyon sized leap to where you try and go is ridiculous. In addition to what people said earlier in the thread go back and read Fionwe's post. Not that it was even needed but it quite clearly shuts down your theory here about what the weaves mean. On top of that we have an RJ quote which invalidates your claim and backs up what we are saying about Nyn being too "specialized".

 

 

It boils down to this: What Egwene considers "very complex", Nyaneve does not think it is.  That says it all.

[Suttree]

 

 

Admittedly I don't look much, but whenever I see an Egwene thread you are there with at least a dozen of post.  If she is not your favourite character, I certainly would not want to see the favourite.  Actually no, Luckers cut us both off.  I don't do personal attacks and I don't see why asking who's your favourite character as a personal attack?   I certainly hope you never visit a couple of other message boards I sometimes frequent...if somebody had no sense of humor, they will be calling the cops at least several dozen times.  

Yeah, I've never been on any Forgotten Realms boards so...shrug. Also it doesn't befit you to play innocent. You know very well every time you get cornered in a discussion you throw out fanboism as you did here. Further we have had discussion numerous times about how she isn't in my top 5 and you certainly didn't "ask if she was my favorite". Let's look at what you said here..."You take things too personally, Egwene is merely a character in a book, even though she is your favourite.". Stop trying to act like that isn't a dig, willful ignorance does you no favors. Lastly it is rather rich you saying I need to have "thick skin" considering all the times you have thrown fits such as your "no one cares" after being proven wrong by various people around the "Nature of the Wheel" debate. If I recall correctly Randsc made that one his sig for a while.

 

Egwene is far and away the character people wrongly attack the most. Hence my posts to correct people with faulty interpretations. I do the same for every character when I see it, it just happens far more often with Egwene/AS(Cads is another people frequently do it to). Incorrect interpretations are what gall me, it has noting to do with the character itself. Here I'll give you this to help you out a bit.

 

1. Mat

2. Cadsuane

3. Logain

4. Verin

5. Bashere

[Entreri]

 

 

 

Admittedly I don't look much, but whenever I see an Egwene thread you are there with at least a dozen of post.  If she is not your favourite character, I certainly would not want to see the favourite.  Actually no, Luckers cut us both off.  I don't do personal attacks and I don't see why asking who's your favourite character as a personal attack?   I certainly hope you never visit a couple of other message boards I sometimes frequent...if somebody had no sense of humor, they will be calling the cops at least several dozen times.  

Yeah, I've never been on any Forgotten Realms boards so...shrug. Also it doesn't befit you to play innocent. You know very well every time you get cornered in a discussion you throw out fanboism as you did here. Further we have had discussion numerous times about how she isn't in my top 5 and you certainly didn't "ask if she was my favorite". Let's look at what you said here..."You take things too personally, Egwene is merely a character in a book, even though she is your favourite.". Stop trying to act like that isn't a dig, willful ignorance does you no favors. Lastly it is rather rich you saying I need to have "thick skin" considering all the times you have thrown fits such as your "no one cares" after being proven wrong by various people around the "Nature of the Wheel" debate. If I recall correctly Randsc made that one his sig for a while.

LOL.

 

If I recall, you have called others Rand fanboys and possibly myself.  I certainly do not pivot and call it a personal attack.  It is nothing.  You can say whatever you want about me, I encourage free discussion and no censorship. 

[Suttree]

 

If I recall, you have called others Rand fanboys and possibly myself.  I certainly do not pivot and call it a personal attack.  It is nothing.  You can say whatever you want about me, I encourage free discussion and no censorship. 

You recall wrong. I know those old AS discussions with you and XXX spitting out vitriol used to get heated but I never have called people out on that. Again are you seriously trying to claim what I quoted above isn't a dig? Further what are you on about, what does this possibly have to do with censorship?

[fionwe1987]

The most important part of that RJ quote is "current abilities".  Back then, Nyaneve had difficulty getting saidar.

 

In ToM, what we see is Egwene calling the 100 weaves for the test "very complex", italicized in the books for emphasis.  Nyaneve POV shows that she thought nothing of it.

This strongely implies their relative skill at the OP. 

 

Just before this scene, we see than Elayne was amazed at the complexity of Egwene's weave, Nyaneve was not impressed in the least.   Clearly Nyaneve skills with the OP are far greater than Elayne's. 

 

Yes, Nyaneve would wreck Egwene. 

 

In KoD, Nynaeve had difficulty accessing saidar? What a bunch of crap.

 

In the books, "very" is italicized. "Complex" is not. And the immediate next sentence is: I haven't had time to memorize all of them; I swear that many are needlessly ornate simply to be difficult.

 

Egwne just hasn't memorized them, and she correctly points out that their complexity is needless. In battle, it isn't needlessly complex weaves that help. Its the right weave placed correctly to achieve the desired result. The 100 weaves in the Aes Sedai test are utterly useless in a normal combat situation. They exist as a complex goal the Accepted has to achieve while dealing with other challenges.

 

 

So I think really the better question would be "What type of combat are they suited for". In which case, again, Egwene = destroyer. Nynaeve = duellist. 

I don't know about that. I frankly think the other way round works better. Nynaeve's raw strength is much more useful against non-channeling opposition. She can simply throw enormous weaves after them. Now, obviously, Egwene's greater strength in Earth and Fire make her good at destruction, but I think her dexterity and finesse and her skill with inventing weaves is much better suited to duels, where those things can really make a difference. Either way, both these women will be good at both, and as they gain knowledge and experience, they will only improve their chances.

 

 

It should be noted that the RJ quote mentions PASSING the test. Not surviving it.

 

The books themselves show WHY Nynaeve nearly did not pass: because she trained her channelling, but didn't train 'being calm' which is also a part of Aes Sedai training, and one Egwene and Elayne are pretty good at (and which, in some situations, IS important). It's darn obvious that Nynaeve had not nearly as much trouble with the channeling part.

Nice try. However, RJ mentioned their current capabilities, and Nynaeve's specialized knowledge, neither of which have anything to do with keeping a straight face. 

 

 

Then clearly this quote cannot refer to Nyaneves skills in the Power, which are above Egwene.   

 

Nice bit of circular logic there. The quote doesn't support my position, so obviously it is wrong, and doesn't weaken my argument.  

 

That quote is pretty conclusive. As of KoD, Nynaeve is too specialized a channeler. In tGS, she learned the AS weaves, and she further improved her abilities in her specialized field. She did not suddenly become like Egwene, eager to learn every weave under the sun and be perfect in using them. She did not start trying to innovate with weaves not involved in Healing. In the same time, we saw Egwene show further evidence of skill with weaving, with innovating, etc.