Is Rand still holding Sadin (some spolier stuff from chapter 1)

[Suttree]

Finally, there are the opening lines of the storm of light:

Light and Power exploded from the Dragon Reborn. He was like an entire army of channelers. Thousands of Shadowspawn died. Deathgates sprang up, striking across the ground, killing hundreds.

 

That is how the first few seconds went. Thousands in the first few seconds, before he started calling in the lightning blasts and tornadoes of fire. The storm went on for hours. Tens of thousands are dead in front of him in the field, and that doesn’t cover the hills above – since the invading force started in the hills, with the ones that almost reached Rand being the most forward elements, and since he was very definitely killing them in the hills (see the comment about the hill forts being somehow untouched), it’s a reasonable expectation that the majority of the death was not the tens of thousands in front of him but the bulk of the army behind them.

 

In short, two Great Captains (one of whom has a very good idea of exactly how much military force Rand can bring to bear) both see the army and think “LOL NO.” The forward vanguard alone was in the tens of thousands. And Rand was killing them for hours, killing thousands every minute.

 

First off it didn't go on for hours, it was at least an hour...

 

ToM

How long had it taken? Ituralde found that he could not gauge the time, though looking at the sun, at least an hour had passed. Perhaps more. It had seemed like seconds.

 

Second you are still guessing at the numbers, you have no idea how they would react in that situation and being outnumbered 2 or 3-1 facing a force of 500 or 600k shadowspawn their reaction was entirely rational. Also you have no idea how to gauge if the initial killing stepped up, stayed the same or dropped off. The force was impressive although per BS the kill count was the same as in KoD.

 

BS

I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight].

 

 

The descriptions in both books match as well so that throws your theory out the window that there are tons of dead scattered elsewhere. Per the author he killed nowhere near a million. Did "entire legions" escape? Yes of course but that does not reach a million, not a chance.

 

Edit: At the end of the day people can speculate all they want but we have a similar description of the dead in both KoD and ToM. On top of that we have an author quote confirming that is the case. Not sure how anyone thinks they can argue around that.

[Entreri]

Using a very conservative estimate: 1000 Shadowspawn dead every 10 seconds = 6000 a minute = 360,000 in a hour. Even assuming only an 1/2 hour barrage, that is still 180,000.

 

From that description above: "Thousands of Shadowspawn died", looks like Rand killed several thousands in a few seconds. Even with the most conservative of estimate and time scale, 180,000 dead.

 

Shadowpawn armies are spawned like in a video game, I wonder if Sanderson keeps the track of their size and dispostition.

 

For both Bashere and Iturlade to be aghast at the size of the Shadowspawn army, it has to be around 1 million.

[mike hunt's here]

there was this video game back in the 80s that I cant recall the name, but it had two joysticks, one to move and one to fire, and I thought it was called robotron...

 

In that game i swear it was fast paced and killed pretty much at the same rate as Rand at Maradon...and theres no way I could kill a million in a couple minutes or even an hour...

 

Have you even ever seen a million of something - a million bugs is huge. a million dollar bills not so much, but still quite a tidy pile. turn those into bodies, and i doubt theres room on any mountain top i know of...

[Maleshub]

Regarding Shadowspawn armies, we have:

- Algarin's manor: 100 Fades and thousands of Trollocs. How many Trollocs can 100 Fades force? A personal estimate is 20-30K Trollocs, 50K at most. The perception that there were 100K Trollocs at Algarin's manor (from lack of personal knowledge on evidence otherwise) comes from the shock and awe of seeing such a large army.

- Tarwin's Gap: Lan estimates that he is facing 10 times his numbers in the gap. Lan has 12K troops; thus the Shadowspawn army in the Gap is in the 120K - 150K range

- Maradon resisted the initial army that attacked it successfully, forcing Shadow Commanders to bring in reinforcements. So, it seems reasonable that two armies attacked Maradon.

 

If Tarwin's Gap is a measuring stick of how much force the Shadow threw at each Borderland Kingdom, then 150K would be the maximum size of the first army that attacked Maradon. The army sent as reinforcements was probably the same size. My personal estimate is that the Shadow threw 250 - 300K at Maradon and lost at least 200K of those to Ituralde and Rand.

[2RiversFan]

I just reread ToM 32. Soon after Ituralda is taken to Bashere and before Rand appears on screen, Ituralde is viewing the shadowspawn reinforcements. His thoughts in the book were that the new force was many times the size of what he had already fought....

[Solmyr]

No, Rand has definitely not been holding onto Saidin since Dragonmount in TGS.

 

He is shielded in TV.

 

He visits Far Madding to meet with the borderlanders.

[kght22]

So right before we seen Rand on Dragonmount, he grabs on to the power in Ebu Dar and gets violently sick. This is the last time that we see Rand grab on to Sadin. Now i have been wondering ever since i first read this part when it first came out, is Rand still holding on to the power. We havent seen a POV from him at all other than the brief glance in the prologue for the last book.

 

i belive this is why he has become so powerfull over the course of the last book. He is still holding onto Sadin. We have him and Perrin sitting around and he 'tells Perrin that " he has the insanity in his grip" i think LTT 's voice was always more calmer and more coherent when Rand was holding the power. I think this is how he is holding it at bay. By always holding onto saidin.Also it may explain the bright light on his brain.

 

This also may explain how Avi's kids are always holding the power and how it is second nature to them. I think this came about when Avi and Rand next Knock boots so to say. Either both of them were holding the power or just Rand is and some how that effects the eventual birth of the quads that she has.

 

So if this is so i wonder whats going to happen when he finally lets go of the power if he is in fact still holding on to it?

 

what do you all think?

 

Editied to add: And we really wont know until we get some type of point of POV where we see him fight again with the power.

the short answer: NO

the long is a mess, but we can start with rand's return from maradon. he is exhausted and someone else had to open the gateway. that someone else would have noticed that he was holding on to the power if he had been at the time. i am saying that he has been around asha'man quite allot since vog, and they would have made quite a loud statement by now if this were the case.

 

 

EDIT: but i do understand where you are coming from with the idea of avi's kids.

[Entreri]

The army is around 1 million. Shooting with a gun would take forever to kill 1 milion, 1 nuke and a second later...Rand's Power level is insane and LTT was the best.

 

Iturlade said none of the armies (Andor, Arad Domon etc) would be able overcome this threat short of the Seanchan. Andor should be able to muster around 150,000 troops. Light troops are always outnumbered by several times and defeat the Dark siders.

 

Iturlade himself defeated a Seanchan force numbering around 300,000. In order for this Shadowspawn army to intimidate him it has to be truly massive.

[OptimusPrime]

I've just realized, Rand can't be holding Saidin continuously, because he entered the affected area of the Far Madding Guardians after he came back from Dragonmount.

 

That is if as he is now he is even affected by the Guardians. Afterall they are only an imitation of a stedding, not a real one. Rand showed no hesitation when two full circles shielded him and Egwene sensed that he could have easily broken free.

 

Egwene has no way of judging Rands strength. She was going off his manner, he was ACTING like he could have easily broken free. This is a guy who knows his mind affects reality around him, and hes just had quite possibly the biggest faith boost ever, thats why hes so calm. Egwene doesnt know any of that. Her oppinion in that scene means nothing at all

[Suttree]

Rand has move beyond what he was capable as LTT. Egwene was certain he could have broken that shield. The veins of Light in his mind.

 

This is an interesting idea. Would be nice to see you build a theory around it with quotes supporting your opinion. As others have mentioned the Egwene part has no bearing as she made that call based solely off his demeanor. Sure you could pull some cool concepts around the "light power" angle though.

[herid]

Nynaeve and Cadsuane both have ter'angreals that would tell them if Rand was holding saidin. They might remark on it - certainly Nyn should notice when she's delving him.

Ditto the Ashaman might wonder what the hell he was upto.

Those are good points. However, if I'm not mistaken both Cadsuane's and Nyaneve's ter'angreal detect active channeling only, not simply holding saidin. That's how the effects are described in the cleansing scene and in the confrontation with Semi scene. The point about Asha'man can perhaps be argued away because none of them said anything during rand's campaign against the Seanchan in tPOD. Rand held the power constantly for days there and nobody except Dashiva said anything and Dashiva was hardly representative of the rest.

Something has to account for the absence of the channeling sickness for Rand post VoG. That's caused by Rand's link to Moridin which is still fully functional.

No, Rand has definitely not been holding onto Saidin since Dragonmount in TGS.

 

He is shielded in TV.

 

He visits Far Madding to meet with the borderlanders.

those are good points but it may be that Rand has an access to a well post VOG (I think that's what the white stuff that Nynaeve sees on his mind might be). Then he would not be affected by either the Far Madding ter'angreal or the shield in the White Tower. RJ said that a person shielded can still channel if they have access to a well.

[he who comes with a bong]

Nynaeve and Cadsuane both have ter'angreals that would tell them if Rand was holding saidin. They might remark on it - certainly Nyn should notice when she's delving him.

Ditto the Ashaman might wonder what the hell he was upto.

Those are good points. However, if I'm not mistaken both Cadsuane's and Nyaneve's ter'angreal detect active channeling only, not simply holding saidin. That's how the effects are described in the cleansing scene and in the confrontation with Semi scene. The point about Asha'man can perhaps be argued away because none of them said anything during rand's campaign against the Seanchan in tPOD. Rand held the power constantly for days there and nobody except Dashiva said anything and Dashiva was hardly representative of the rest.

Something has to account for the absence of the channeling sickness for Rand post VoG. That's caused by Rand's link to Moridin which is still fully functional.

No, Rand has definitely not been holding onto Saidin since Dragonmount in TGS.

 

He is shielded in TV.

 

He visits Far Madding to meet with the borderlanders.

those are good points but it may be that Rand has an access to a well post VOG (I think that's what the white stuff that Nynaeve sees on his mind might be). Then he would not be affected by either the Far Madding ter'angreal or the shield in the White Tower. RJ said that a person shielded can still channel if they have access to a well.

 

Do you think maybee imploding the Choden Kal like he did, he created some type of well that is in fact him self somehow. The way i see it he had to draw all that power he was holding into the figurine its self. So instead of pushing it out so to say everything just came back into him in a gentle backlash as he is not aware of it as far as we know.

[herid]

 

 

Do you think maybee imploding the Choden Kal like he did, he created some type of well that is in fact him self somehow. The way i see it he had to draw all that power he was holding into the figurine its self. So instead of pushing it out so to say everything just came back into him in a gentle backlash as he is not aware of it as far as we know.

yes, that's what I meant. I'm not at all sure on this but I think it's a possibility which would explain a number of things.

[he who comes with a bong]

Do you think maybee imploding the Choden Kal like he did, he created some type of well that is in fact him self somehow. The way i see it he had to draw all that power he was holding into the figurine its self. So instead of pushing it out so to say everything just came back into him in a gentle backlash as he is not aware of it as far as we know.

yes, that's what I meant. I'm not at all sure on this but I think it's a possibility which would explain a number of things.

 

Yah i have always thought along those lines aswell. Where else could have all that power gone if not into him self. There has to be some type of resonace or somethign slong those lines when something like that has happend. And it would explain alot of things that he has been able to do now. And the same with his and Avi's kids, why else would they be able to live and breath saidar all the time with out some type of influence of some type. Unless it is a side effect of them both holdign the power and being bonded to each other whilst knocking boots.

[Sharaman]

Nynaeve and Cadsuane both have ter'angreals that would tell them if Rand was holding saidin. They might remark on it - certainly Nyn should notice when she's delving him.

Ditto the Ashaman might wonder what the hell he was upto.

Those are good points. However, if I'm not mistaken both Cadsuane's and Nyaneve's ter'angreal detect active channeling only, not simply holding saidin. That's how the effects are described in the cleansing scene and in the confrontation with Semi scene. The point about Asha'man can perhaps be argued away because none of them said anything during rand's campaign against the Seanchan in tPOD. Rand held the power constantly for days there and nobody except Dashiva said anything and Dashiva was hardly representative of the rest.

Something has to account for the absence of the channeling sickness for Rand post VoG. That's caused by Rand's link to Moridin which is still fully functional.

No, Rand has definitely not been holding onto Saidin since Dragonmount in TGS.

 

He is shielded in TV.

 

He visits Far Madding to meet with the borderlanders.

those are good points but it may be that Rand has an access to a well post VOG (I think that's what the white stuff that Nynaeve sees on his mind might be). Then he would not be affected by either the Far Madding ter'angreal or the shield in the White Tower. RJ said that a person shielded can still channel if they have access to a well.

Cadsuane knew when he was holding saidin and when he released at the battle of Algiarin's Manor (KoD).

[Rubberninja]

Cadsuane knew when he was holding saidin and when he released at the battle of Algiarin's Manor (KoD).

As I remmember the scene, Logain reported on Rand holding as much of the power as he could, and when he released it. I believe Herid is correct in this, that the ter'angreal only report when/where saidin is being channeled, not when it's only held.

 

As for Rand accessing a well, I'd like to reffer to Egwenes test for Accepted again, where Rand says he is holding off the taint, but it takes everything he's got. Maybe that's incidental, and something slightly altered to fit the scenario, but then again, the whole 'holding the taint off' thing might be incidental aswell.

 

Personally, I think the Light-insulation between Rands brain and the madness is a result of Perrin being in Rands vicinity while atop Dragonmount. With refference to Mins viewings of fireflies around Rand and the other ta'veren, being swallowed by darkness, and there being more fireflies when they're together. Along with her viewing that Perrin has to be near Rand twice, or something really bad will happen. Some might argue that Dumais Wells was one, and Dragonmount the other, or that there's one more scenario where Perrin (and probably Mat) have to be close to Rand to come.

In short, the Light-insulation has nothing to do with the One Power.

 

I could probably start a whole thread about it, but I'll tie this in with my theory that resealing the Dark Ones prison without a patch/seal comes down to ta'veren power, not the One Power or the True Power, aided by the 'flawed' Callandor.

[FarShainMael]

I'm in agreement with you that Dragonmount was one of those occasions. I believe I read somewhere that Brandon said there is a second one to come, I'll try and find the ref.

 

I also agree that the presence of the three ta'veren in close proximity will be essential to Healing the Bore, directly or indirectly. By 'indirectly' I mean that it might be that their combined presence influences events towards finding the permanent solution, rather than directly pulling the Threads around the Bore into shape (which is what I'd like to see happen!)

 

Edited to add ref:

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=632#11

 

(This quote says that BWS 'confirmed' that Dumai's wells was the first time, but I can't find a ref for that.)

[Rubberninja]

Looks like BS knocks the idea that Perrin had to be there at Dragonmount. Boogers.

[FarShainMael]

Looks like BS knocks the idea that Perrin had to be there at Dragonmount. Boogers.

 

Yeah. I'd like to pin down that 'confirmation', though. To my mind, DM fits better than DW, but what do I know..

[Rubberninja]

Yeah. I'd like to pin down that 'confirmation', though. To my mind, DM fits better than DW, but what do I know..

I suppose there wouldn't have been a rescue if Perrin hadn't mounted one, or it would have failed because it would have failed, for a hundred reasons, without him there.

The scene atop DM not being one could be another Brandon-blooper. I can't say I trust his writing and answering as much as RJ's. He just doesnt have the same overview and surety, and makes loads more mistakes, some quite severe ones unfortunately.

[Suttree]

As I remmember the scene, Logain reported on Rand holding as much of the power as he could, and when he released it. I believe Herid is correct in this, that the ter'angreal only report when/where saidin is being channeled, not when it's only held.

 

Nope, it detects when someone is even holding the op.

 

KoD

We can die at Tarmon Gai’don, Lews Therin said, and suddenly, the Power drained out of him.

“He released,” Logain said, as if he were suddenly on Cadsuane’s side.

“I know.” she told him. He whipped his head around in surprise.

[Sharaman]

Cadsuane knew when he was holding saidin and when he released at the battle of Algiarin's Manor (KoD).

As I remmember the scene, Logain reported on Rand holding as much of the power as he could, and when he released it. I believe Herid is correct in this, that the ter'angreal only report when/where saidin is being channeled, not when it's only held.

 

As for Rand accessing a well, I'd like to reffer to Egwenes test for Accepted again, where Rand says he is holding off the taint, but it takes everything he's got. Maybe that's incidental, and something slightly altered to fit the scenario, but then again, the whole 'holding the taint off' thing might be incidental aswell.

 

Personally, I think the Light-insulation™ between Rands brain and the madness is a result of Perrin being in Rands vicinity while atop Dragonmount. With refference to Mins viewings of fireflies around Rand and the other ta'veren, being swallowed by darkness, and there being more fireflies when they're together. Along with her viewing that Perrin has to be near Rand twice, or something really bad will happen. Some might argue that Dumais Wells was one, and Dragonmount the other, or that there's one more scenario where Perrin (and probably Mat) have to be close to Rand to come.

In short, the Light-insulation™ has nothing to do with the One Power.

 

I could probably start a whole thread about it, but I'll tie this in with my theory that resealing the Dark Ones prison without a patch/seal comes down to ta'veren power, not the One Power or the True Power, aided by the 'flawed' Callandor.

Logain says he's released and Cadsuane nods "I know".

Edit : Ninja-ed above.

[herid]

@Sharaman and @Suttree good catch about Cadsuane's ter'angreal detecting if somebody holds saidin. Not clear if the same is true for Nynaeve's but it might be. Nynaeve remarks in WH, ch 32 that Cadsuane immediately recognized what her ter'angreal can do so they are likely similar to those of Cadsuane.

There seems to be a difference between them however. Cadsuane's shrike can detect the direction of the person channeling and Nynaeve's ring can not, at least she doesn't know how. It also says in WH, ch 32 that Nynaeve's ring works for up to 3 miles radius which means that it should be on all the time as she is constantly near Asha'man and Aes Sedai and wouldn't be able to zero in on Rand specifically. She even remarks on that limitation

 

One of her rings, set with a pale green stone that now appeared to glow with a faint internal light, seemed to vibrate continually on her finger though it did not really move. The pattern of vibrations was mixed, a reaction to saidar and saidin being channeled outside. For that matter, someone could have been channeling inside. Cadsuane was sure it should be able to indicate direction, but she could not say how. Ha! for Cadsuane and her supposed superior knowledge!

-KoD, ch 20

 

Cadsuane's swallow ter'angreal on the other hand can indicate the direction (but not distance) and Cadsuane uses that during the Cleansing fight. So she at least should probably be able to figure out if Rand is holding saidin constantly post VoG. However, she is very secretive and would have most likely kept such knowledge to herself. But her behavior in Far Madding does prove that Rand is not holding saidin there. If he has a Well, he is not using it in Far Madding at all.

 

still, here should be some explanation for the fact that Rand doesn't seem to suffer from channeling sickness any longer and for Avi's kids constantly holding the OP. So far I haven't seen any good theories on the subject other than Rand being constantly tied to saidin now.

[he who comes with a bong]

Maybee he is holding the power and some how he knows now how to hide his ability from others. Pretty far fetched i think but a possibility.

[Hopefire]

Edit: At the end of the day people can speculate all they want but we have a similar description of the dead in both KoD and ToM. On top of that we have an author quote confirming that is the case. Not sure how anyone thinks they can argue around that.

 

Really? I know that you're aware of the concept of "death of the author." While it doesn't precisely apply in this case, whatever BS may have intended to write, what he wrote was an army of several hundred thousand, possibly up to a million.

 

In simple point form, the reason people "think that they can argue around that," is because the text supports an army approaching a million or more.

 

-Bashere is aware of the extent of Rand's forces. He's faced Trollocs all of his life. He has personal reason to want to defend the city. He sees the size of the force and immediately rejects trying to save the city. Therefore, the size of the Trolloc army must be sufficient to intimidate Bashere, even given that Bashere is fully aware of the size and scope of Rand's forces.

 

-On page 331 in the hardcover, Ituralde states that the city of Maradon is besieged by several hundred thousand Shadowspawn. That presents an initial force of at least 200,000. While Ituralde certainly chipped away at that, Rand must have brought with him enough to drive off over a hundred thousand Shadowspawn invested in the city in a matter of hours. On page 500, Ituralde describes the second force of Shadowspawn as being "many times the number that had assaulted Maradon." The absolute minimum value of "many" is probably going to be 3, so the minimum number of Shadowspawn coming down the pass to attack Maradon will be 3x200,000, or 600,000. That assumes that none of the Shadowspawn that escaped the city joined in the second attack. If anything less than the minimum definition of "several" and "many" are used, the number will be higher. For example, if "several hundred thousand" means 250,000, and "many" means 4, then a million Shadowspawn are coming down the hill.

 

The reactions of Bashere and Ituralde provide in-universe confirmation of the numbers involved.

 

You can argue that Brandon didn't write what he intended, that he seriously screwed up the numbers and fudged the reaction of the Great Captains while trying to make the Shadowspawn army sound impressive. But that's his screw-up. What's in the text is what's in the text. Unless you think that two of the best commanders in the world are going to severely overestimate the size of the Shadowspawn army, then an army that is "many times the number" of an army that is "several hundred thousand" is going to be pretty damn big. Given that the fighting went on for least an hour and that until they finally broke the Trollocs were climbing over the bodies of the dead to try to reach Rand (and some came close, meaning that the killing field extended from somewhere in the field in front of the city to the hill forts; while the map is without scale, it seems likely to be at least a kilometer or so given the size of the city), saying Rand killed multiple hundreds of thousands, possibly as much as a million is not a stretch. Regardless of what BS thinks that he wrote.

 

I'm normally pretty quick to defend BS, but if he thinks that he wrote a scene with tens of thousands of Trollocs, that's a failure on his part.