Maybe I'm a little late in the game here - rand getting ripped

[joeron bigelow]

This thought blossomed in my head -

 

Why are people casting theories that "Rand" will be ripped out of the Dream? I have to say I think thats impossible because "Rand" is not the Hero bound to the horn, but instead the "Dragon" is the one bound to the horn - right?

 

Has anyone already said that?

 

Consider Brigitte:

 

1. When B is reborn - she is not reborn with a long blond braid all the time.

2. When B was ripped out of the Dream - she was ripped out as B.

 

Now Rand:

 

1. Rand is LTT reborn.

2. Isn't that just like how that chick who got lost in the Tower of Ghenji was B reborn?

3. LTT was not 6 foot tall with red hair and grey eyes.

 

So if/when Rand passes - "he" (rand) will not be available to be ripped out, but instead LTT is there.

 

I believe my Logic is sound. However I will admit I am not as much versed in the whole "BS said it at comiccon" stuff so I am only going off what I pieced together myself from the books.

 

Perrin on the other hand - (haha the pun) could be ripped as he manifests in the Dream as young bull or Perrin.

 

I'm not real sure how Rand (veins of gold) popped up there. probably travelling or something.

[herid]

RJ confirmed that Rand is a Hero of the Horn

 

 

Interview: Oct 22nd, 1998

 

TPOD Signing Report - Pam Basham (Paraphrased)

Pam Basham

 

 

Regarding the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn (and Graendal's thoughts about Ishamael's musings):

"Is this soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

Robert Jordan

 

 

This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.

Pam Basham

 

In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme—because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

[Viperswhip]

Very interesting. There is a http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/ So Spake Martin website that tries desperately to maintain a list of his comments on Ice and Fire, is there a similar site for Jordan/Sanderson?

[herid]

yes, there is an interview database on Theoryland. It's very complete and very good. I highly recommend reading through the whole thing (it might take a few hours though).

[joeron bigelow]

RJ confirmed that Rand is a Hero of the Horn

 

 

Interview: Oct 22nd, 1998

 

TPOD Signing Report - Pam Basham (Paraphrased)

Pam Basham

 

 

Regarding the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn (and Graendal's thoughts about Ishamael's musings):

"Is this soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

Robert Jordan

 

 

This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.

Pam Basham

 

In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme—because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

 

Forgive my ignorance, but this quote doesnt tell me that Rand al Thor is a hero of the horn. It tells me that hawkwing recognizes LTTs soul. It tells me LTT is hero, not Rand.

 

Am I missing something?

[herid]

LTT and Rand are the same soul. I really suggest you read the interview database. This has all been settled years ago.

[TootThatHorn]

He bolded the part that answers that question.

[joeron bigelow]

forgive me for not being as smart as everyone else. however I still dont get it and reading a bunch of collected snippets doesnt answer my question.

 

Maybe you dont get my question. when Rand "dies" and goes to the otherworld...Like you said, LTT and Rand have the same soul...who is say LTT will not be ripped out instead of Rand?

 

Birgette lived a life as Maerion. When Maerion passed away, the nynaeve of that era - if she were to rip birgitte out - would it be Maerion?

 

Maybe my writing skills are too rudimentary for others to clearly imagine what I am trying to point out.

 

Just because I only have 100 posts, doesnt make me less of an expert on WOT than others. I've read this book series more than maybe Gutenberg read the bible.

 

Of course - the thing about Birgitte and her ripping out will be addressed in AMOL so maybe I have to wait until then for my answer.

[TootThatHorn]

I see what you're saying; I think it's one of those things that we kind of just have to take for granted that something that ought to be one way really isn't, like an early bookism. I would have expected Hawkwing to have had another incarnation as well but Hawkwing's story was so momentous it would be a shame to not use him as a hero, same with Birgitte.

 

Thus given the POTENTIAL for Rand to get yanked I would guess we would just have to assume that it will be Rand in TAR. I've always assumed that since they address each other as their "last" incarnation they would appear as it as well, with a recognition of the soul as well.

[herid]

@joeron I mean no disrespect here. It's just that this has all been argued over many times and I don't really want to spend time going over old arguments. The Heroes of the Horn don't have a fixed "generic" appearance in TAR. They look in TAR as they looked in the last lives they lived. For example both Rand and Mat recognize Hawkwing at Falme by what they know he looked like in RL (presumably from stories). and later when Mat gets memories of people who met Hawking in real life Hawkwing looks the same in his memories as he did at Falme.

[Viperswhip]

yes, there is an interview database on Theoryland. It's very complete and very good. I highly recommend reading through the whole thing (it might take a few hours though).

 

That's okay, I need something to do at work lol

[Agitel]

Maybe you dont get my question. when Rand "dies" and goes to the otherworld...Like you said, LTT and Rand have the same soul...who is say LTT will not be ripped out instead of Rand?

 

The evidence related to this issue suggests that when a Hero's soul returns to Tel'Aran'Rhiod they keep/use the physical appearance and name of their most recent incarnation. The Dragon soul's most recent incarnation is Rand al'Thor. Once a soul becomes a Hero, they remain a Hero (this is not the same for ta'veren), so every incarnation of Brigitte's soul, and every incarnation of Rand's soul, has been a Hero. Some soul's may have not always been a Hero. Some became one through heroic acts in life, but they have been Heroes in every incarnation since then.

 

 

Birgette lived a life as Maerion. When Maerion passed away, the nynaeve of that era - if she were to rip birgitte out - would it be Maerion?

 

If Maerion was Birgitte's most recent incarnation when she was ripped out, she would have taken on the appearance of Maerion and would have been using that name. At least, according to everything we've seen, that would be the case.

 

EDIT: Birgitte was the most recent incarnation of that soul. Her former life where she got lost in the Tower of Ghenjei predates the Birgitte incarnation.

[FarShainMael]

When the Birgitte-soul was ripped out, she was manifest to Nynaeve as Birgitte, and she retained that form (TFoH34). I would think that if the Dragonsoul manifests to the person who intends ripping him out as Rand, that's who he will be.

[ArveduiEreinion]

Maybe you dont get my question. when Rand "dies" and goes to the otherworld...Like you said, LTT and Rand have the same soul...who is say LTT will not be ripped out instead of Rand?

 

The evidence related to this issue suggests that when a Hero's soul returns to Tel'Aran'Rhiod they keep/use the physical appearance and name of their most recent incarnation. The Dragon soul's most recent incarnation is Rand al'Thor. Once a soul becomes a Hero, they remain a Hero (this is not the same for ta'veren), so every incarnation of Brigitte's soul, and every incarnation of Rand's soul, has been a Hero. Some soul's may have not always been a Hero. Some became one through heroic acts in life, but they have been Heroes in every incarnation since then.

 

 

Birgette lived a life as Maerion. When Maerion passed away, the nynaeve of that era - if she were to rip birgitte out - would it be Maerion?

 

If Maerion was Birgitte's most recent incarnation when she was ripped out, she would have taken on the appearance of Maerion and would have been using that name. At least, according to everything we've seen, that would be the case.

 

EDIT: Birgitte was the most recent incarnation of that soul. Her former life where she got lost in the Tower of Ghenjei predates the Birgitte incarnation.

 

Thanks for this because it answers a similar question I had. Also, I think this answers the OPs question.

[Viperswhip]

Well, she would call herself Maerion? Are we not given to believe that while in TAR she remembers the entirety of all her lives? Do we know that she was last known as Birgitte? That is the overall name for her through the ages, like the Dragon is for Rand and LTT. She has certainly been Birgitte in a great many stories, kind of odd to have tons of moms over the ages name her Birgitte.

 

So, being born again naturally she would get a new name. In TAR though, she probably uses her first ever name and the one used most often during her many lives. Gaidal does the same thing presumably. I guess it's possible her last incarnation was named Birgitte, but it also had been many times before, we don't know for sure. She also looks the part of Birgitte from the stories, and while I suppose she may look pretty similar every time, Rand does not look like LTT.

 

I get what RJ had to say about the issue, but I am not sure it was so fully thought out. Too many coincidences otherwise.

 

Edit, to be clear I know that she was last known as Birgitte, but it just strains credulity that it has happened sooo many times.

[haplo333]

I don't think Rand will be ripped from TAR because it has been done with Birgitte and RJ would not prefer to do it again with the main character. I think that it will be very unique method which we have not seen it yet.

[Agitel]

Well, she would call herself Maerion? Are we not given to believe that while in TAR she remembers the entirety of all her lives? Do we know that she was last known as Birgitte? That is the overall name for her through the ages, like the Dragon is for Rand and LTT. She has certainly been Birgitte in a great many stories, kind of odd to have tons of moms over the ages name her Birgitte.

 

So, being born again naturally she would get a new name. In TAR though, she probably uses her first ever name and the one used most often during her many lives. Gaidal does the same thing presumably. I guess it's possible her last incarnation was named Birgitte, but it also had been many times before, we don't know for sure. She also looks the part of Birgitte from the stories, and while I suppose she may look pretty similar every time, Rand does not look like LTT.

 

I get what RJ had to say about the issue, but I am not sure it was so fully thought out. Too many coincidences otherwise.

 

Edit, to be clear I know that she was last known as Birgitte, but it just strains credulity that it has happened sooo many times.

 

Why do you think Birgitte was consistently named Birgitte in most of her incarnations? Birgitte is just her latest name, it's not a generic name for her soul, or even the name she's gone by in most of her lives.

 

One physical similarity between LTT and Rand is that they were of similar stature.

 

I don't think Rand will be ripped from TAR because it has been done with Birgitte and RJ would not prefer to do it again with the main character. I think that it will be very unique method which we have not seen it yet.

 

While I don't necessarily agree that Rand will be ripped out, I have to disagree with you that RJ wouldn't want to do it again. In fact, the entire reason Birgitte was ripped out may have been to demonstrate that this could be done. That's a characteristic of good writing. It would be considered poor form if RJ/Brandon just pulled a solution from nowhere.

[Suttree]

Why do you think Birgitte was consistently named Birgitte in most of her incarnations? Birgitte is just her latest name, it's not a generic name for her soul, or even the name she's gone by in most of her lives.

 

One physical similarity between LTT and Rand is that they were of similar stature.

 

Well it seems to be the most famous of her incarnations. Many of the HotH are known by name and Birgitte features most prominent in the stories people remember.

[stillwill]

forgive me for not being as smart as everyone else. however I still dont get it and reading a bunch of collected snippets doesnt answer my question.

 

Maybe you dont get my question. when Rand "dies" and goes to the otherworld...Like you said, LTT and Rand have the same soul...who is say LTT will not be ripped out instead of Rand?

 

Birgette lived a life as Maerion. When Maerion passed away, the nynaeve of that era - if she were to rip birgitte out - would it be Maerion?

 

Maybe my writing skills are too rudimentary for others to clearly imagine what I am trying to point out.

 

Just because I only have 100 posts, doesnt make me less of an expert on WOT than others. I've read this book series more than maybe Gutenberg read the bible.

 

Of course - the thing about Birgitte and her ripping out will be addressed in AMOL so maybe I have to wait until then for my answer.

LTT is Rand, Rand is LTT. Same guy different name/body.

[Agitel]

Why do you think Birgitte was consistently named Birgitte in most of her incarnations? Birgitte is just her latest name, it's not a generic name for her soul, or even the name she's gone by in most of her lives.

 

One physical similarity between LTT and Rand is that they were of similar stature.

 

Well it seems to be the most famous of her incarnations. Many of the HotH are known by name and Birgitte features most prominent in the stories people remember.

 

That always struck me as being a result of that being her most recent incarnation, thus the legends most fresh and prominent in people's memories.

[Alyriel]

It might be a toss up whether the determining factor that governs the appearance or incarnating aspect of the soul of someone getting "ripped" is how that person currently views themself, or some need of the Pattern. Even though the reincarnation is not happening by normal turning of the Wheel.

[he who comes with a bong]

If me and Rand hung out he would get Ripped for sure hahahahahahah. I just had to say it since i saw the topic.

[b3arz3rg3r]

If Rand died and the Dragon got ripped out of TAR he wouldn't be Rand. He would be the entirety of his lives. Just like Birgitte was. The core would be the same, but his memories as Rand would be just as important and just as big a part of him as the memories of every Dragon incarnation ever. His character would change significantly.

As for how he would look who knows. The Dragon isn't set in his looks like Birgitte with her braid or Gaidal being a short ugly man. The only things Rand and LTT have in common is that they are both tall men.

[XoMeltdownoX]

If Rand died and the Dragon got ripped out of TAR he wouldn't be Rand. He would be the entirety of his lives. Just like Birgitte was. The core would be the same, but his memories as Rand would be just as important and just as big a part of him as the memories of every Dragon incarnation ever. His character would change significantly.

As for how he would look who knows. The Dragon isn't set in his looks like Birgitte with her braid or Gaidal being a short ugly man. The only things Rand and LTT have in common is that they are both tall men.

+1

[joeron bigelow]

If Rand died and the Dragon got ripped out of TAR he wouldn't be Rand. He would be the entirety of his lives. Just like Birgitte was. The core would be the same, but his memories as Rand would be just as important and just as big a part of him as the memories of every Dragon incarnation ever. His character would change significantly.

As for how he would look who knows. The Dragon isn't set in his looks like Birgitte with her braid or Gaidal being a short ugly man. The only things Rand and LTT have in common is that they are both tall men.

 

Yes...thats the point I was so uneloquently trying to express. Why would Elayne want a guy that may or may not look like Rand, but also with all the Dragon memories. Its not the "same" guy.