Missed Opportunities

[Suttree]

Rand now has integrated the full memory of Lewis Therrin. He seems to have a total control and understanding of his new ability to bend the pattern in positive ways, and seems to have a good understanding of how his new abilities work.

 

I don't follow? If anything he understands he can't "bend the pattern" to his will as that isn't how it works. As for LTT, it's not as if he had some all knowing mind state. If he did he wouldn't have botched the job last time and wouldn't need Min to figure things out for him this time around. There is also that pesky little connection to Moridin and the resulting exchange of ideas/personality that everyone seems to forget about.

 

I get your over all point about the DO causing spoilage but the KC is very clear. The Dragon is one with the land and "nor can good things grow". That is everywhere not just in his vicinity.

[BFG]

Also Nyn is almost half as strong as 10 of above average AS (group includes Siuan, Leane and Sheriam - who all stand pretty high) using wand of destiny (Vora's) as in the Great Hunt (added: should be beginning of DR not GH) - she's probably stronger now.

There's nothing to support that.

 

Nothing to support her original strength or that she's stronger now? the first is backed up by her own statement and the fact that neither Eg or Elayne contradict her. Not conclusive proof, but once they know how they appear to be able to judge each others strength pretty accurately I can dig out the quote when I get back home.

The first - it is not, despite what you say, supported by her statement. She never claims to be almost half as strong. And while she is stronger no than she was then, she is likely still not half as strong as they were during Mat's Healing.

 

 

I guess this is a matter of opinion, I view the fact that Nyn uses the words almost half (I think the actual words are "I don't think I could hold even half that" I think she also uses it as an indication to herself of how strong she is - by comparing herself to what the group of them can do), instead of say a tenth, or a hundreth as indicative of her strength, either of the above are as easy to say as half and more likely to be used instead of half if that was what she felt.

 

There are other indications that the power up between levels is exponential instead of linear as well. Egwene is far stronger than any AS (except Elayne) for hundreds of years. Moiraine who does know about these things, and has taken the oaths compares Nyn to Eg as a bonfire to a candle. Rand can, while untrained, handle Elayne and Egwene together as easily as kittens (one of their words for it) - not necessarily a fair compaisom, because at this stage Elayne is still understrengthed (although Eg has now been forced, so is at or near her full potential).

 

Not so sure of this one, (without the books), but Eg in Storm while under influence of forkroot manages to link with 3 of the strongest novices (think either Bode or Nicola or both - Bode has Sheriams potential, Nicola close to El and Egs), now the novices aren't at full strength yet, but wielding flows from all 3 is strong enough to open a gateway (so not really weak) and she compares the difference between the circle and her at full power as a trickle to a flood? When she uses Voras wand (stick of destiny) it becomes a torrent.

 

None of it's conclusive without word of God, but I think Nyn is a lot stronger than the other AS and the original comparison probably pretty close to reality.

 

Additionally their's the fact that when they send people to try to work out what happened in the cleansing, they think the Forsaken are responsible, indicating that they believe the Forsaken are much stronger than they are. Nyn is at the level of the weaker forsaken.

[Yosarian]

Rand now has integrated the full memory of Lewis Therrin. He seems to have a total control and understanding of his new ability to bend the pattern in positive ways, and seems to have a good understanding of how his new abilities work.

 

I don't follow? If anything he understands he can't "bend the pattern" to his will as that isn't how it works.

 

I kind of think it is now; he seems under control of his own Ta'veren nature now and the effects of it. He first showed the ability as Dark Rand ("do you think I could kill you by...coincidence?") and now he seems to be in conscious control of the positive effects of it ("All the unopened boxes of food are good.") I think he knows what he's doing now, and he seems to know how it works and what the effect will be.

 

It's not that hard to see how; Mat has had control of his Ta'veren nature for a while now (he can choose to either win or lose at dice at will.) Rand's ability to warp the pattern with his ta'veren is much stronger, of course.

 

Also, I think that all three of them have the ability to hold off the Dark One's corrupting touch with their Ta'veren nature, not just Rand; there was one point in a recent when Perrin was gathering forces when it was mentioned that the food owned by Perrin's army was not spoiling, even while food everywhere else was.

 

I get your over all point about the DO causing spoilage but the KC is very clear. The Dragon is one with the land and "nor can good things grow". That is everywhere not just in his vicinity.

 

Sure; I think he does have an effect on the whole world (there was a subtle mention of tea tasting better in the White Tower), although it seems to be strongest right where he is. It's basically a struggle between him and the Dark One's presence now. I don't think he can hold the Dark One's presence off forever, though.

[FarShainMael]

I think there's a bit more to the 'good food' incident than just ta'verenism. Look at what's happening in Bandar Eban:

 

{Rand} stepped forward and yanked free the tie on top of a sack. It fell to the side, and golden barley spiled from it across the floor of the hold, not a single speck of darkness on it. The barley looked as if it had just been harvested, each grain plump and full.

 

Plump and full? And it's been sitting in a sack for weeks? And that's not all..

 

"Potatoes here,"another soldier said from beside a barrel. "Look as good as any I've had. Better than most, actually. Not dried up, like you'd expect from winter leftovers."

 

First-quality grain and potatoes? That's more than just chance!

[Mr Ares]

Also Nyn is almost half as strong as 10 of above average AS (group includes Siuan, Leane and Sheriam - who all stand pretty high) using wand of destiny (Vora's) as in the Great Hunt (added: should be beginning of DR not GH) - she's probably stronger now.

There's nothing to support that.

 

Nothing to support her original strength or that she's stronger now? the first is backed up by her own statement and the fact that neither Eg or Elayne contradict her. Not conclusive proof, but once they know how they appear to be able to judge each others strength pretty accurately I can dig out the quote when I get back home.

The first - it is not, despite what you say, supported by her statement. She never claims to be almost half as strong. And while she is stronger no than she was then, she is likely still not half as strong as they were during Mat's Healing.

 

I guess this is a matter of opinion, I view the fact that Nyn uses the words almost half (I think the actual words are "I don't think I could hold even half that" I think she also uses it as an indication to herself of how strong she is - by comparing herself to what the group of them can do), instead of say a tenth, or a hundredth as indicative of her strength, either of the above are as easy to say as half and more likely to be used instead of half if that was what she felt.

Not using the phrase a tenth or a hundredth isn't necessarily indicative of anything - all we can say reliably is that she has less than half the strength of that circle. We have no basis for establishing how much less. Saying half is no less accurate than a tenth or a hundredth if you cannot handle any of those amounts. Plus, of course, the smaller it is, the greater the weakness you admit to - Nynaeve is not overly fond of highlighting her weaknesses. And it's interesting that you say "I view the fact that Nyn uses the words almost half..." when my initial point was that it is not a fact she uses the word almost. Almost is not supported.

 

There are other indications that the power up between levels is exponential instead of linear as well. Egwene is far stronger than any AS (except Elayne) for hundreds of years. Moiraine who does know about these things, and has taken the oaths compares Nyn to Eg as a bonfire to a candle. Rand can, while untrained, handle Elayne and Egwene together as easily as kittens (one of their words for it) - not necessarily a fair compaisom, because at this stage Elayne is still understrengthed (although Eg has now been forced, so is at or near her full potential).

The Oaths do not prevent figures of speech, nor exaggeration.

 

Additionally their's the fact that when they send people to try to work out what happened in the cleansing, they think the Forsaken are responsible, indicating that they believe the Forsaken are much stronger than they are. Nyn is at the level of the weaker forsaken.

A lot the AS believe is shown to be wrong - do we have a good basis for believing that the Chosen are actually significantly stronger than the AS? Nynaeve is stronger than Moggy, but we don't know where Moggy ranks, save that it is below Lanfear.

[Whizbang]

The thirteenth repository has power rankings: http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

Take it for what it is worth.

[Suttree]

The thirteenth repository has power rankings: http://13depository....th-ranking.html

 

Take it for what it is worth.

 

Mr Ares has been ripping that thing to shreds for years...

 

I kind of think it is now; he seems under control of his own Ta'veren nature now and the effects of it. He first showed the ability as Dark Rand ("do you think I could kill you by...coincidence?") and now he seems to be in conscious control of the positive effects of it ("All the unopened boxes of food are good.") I think he knows what he's doing now, and he seems to know how it works and what the effect will be.

 

It's not that hard to see how; Mat has had control of his Ta'veren nature for a while now (he can choose to either win or lose at dice at will.) Rand's ability to warp the pattern with his ta'veren is much stronger, of course.

 

He now has an understanding of how it works but that doesn't mean he bends the pattern to his will. In fact we seem him try and fail to do so against Tuon. Here is a quote that touches directly on some of the instances you are referring to.

 

Interview: Dec 17th, 2011

Alloy of Law Signing Report - Loialson (Verbatim)

Loialson

 

Can Rand consciously control his ta'veren pull to any degree? Specifically referencing to his meeting with Tuon to will her to submit to him, and when he threatened Cadsuane to will her dead.

Brandon Sanderson

 

 

He, um, believes that he can.

LOIALSON

 

Still, even after the The Gathering Storm reintegration?

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

He has a more zen view on it now, but he still believes that he can have some influence.

 

RJ has made it very clear however that ta'veren bend to the pattern, not the other way around. As for Mat he most certainly can not choose whether to win or loose. His luck understands what he needs and changes accordingly.

[Yosarian]

The thirteenth repository has power rankings: http://13depository....th-ranking.html

 

Take it for what it is worth.

 

Mr Ares has been ripping that thing to shreds for years...

 

I kind of think it is now; he seems under control of his own Ta'veren nature now and the effects of it. He first showed the ability as Dark Rand ("do you think I could kill you by...coincidence?") and now he seems to be in conscious control of the positive effects of it ("All the unopened boxes of food are good.") I think he knows what he's doing now, and he seems to know how it works and what the effect will be.

 

It's not that hard to see how; Mat has had control of his Ta'veren nature for a while now (he can choose to either win or lose at dice at will.) Rand's ability to warp the pattern with his ta'veren is much stronger, of course.

 

He now has an understanding of how it works but that doesn't mean he bends the pattern to his will. In fact we seem him try and fail to do so against Tuon. Here is a quote that touches directly on some of the instances you are referring to.

 

 

He did use it against Tuon successfully. We saw how strongly it affected her mind.

 

She was able to resist it, basically because she's just that strong-willed, but that doesn't mean it didn't work. (We saw someone else resist Rand's ta'veren mental push once; I think it was Egwene, if I'm remembering correctly. It wasn't nearly as strong back then though.)

 

And, yeah, Rand certainly does believe that he can. It's interesting that in that quote BS doesn't actually say one way or the other. The part in ToM with the boxes where it "just happened" that all the boxes they hadn't opened yet had good food; not only did it do what he wanted, he clearly knew exactly what effect it ta'veren would have before they checked any boxes, and how it would work. He had no doubt that 100% of the unopened boxes had good food, just through "coincidence", even before they opened any of them. That seems to pretty clearly show that he not only controlled his ta'veren, but that it worked exactly the way he wanted it to, and that he knew exactly what he was doing it as he was doing it.

 

RJ has made it very clear however that ta'veren bend to the pattern, not the other way around. As for Mat he most certainly can not choose whether to win or loose. His luck understands what he needs and changes accordingly.

 

Sure, that's a possible interpretation. I will say that Mat believed that it was his free will that was doing it, and it's worth mentioning that it always seemed to happen when he knew he needed it to. I don't remember ever seeing Mat lose at dice in a situation where he was trying to win just because losing in that situation was somehow better for him in the long run, and you would expect that if it was a matter of Ta'veren working on it's own. Example: at one point, Mat noticed someone was looking at him suspiciously, so he intentionally lost (when he was out with Tuon). I don't think it's ever happened the other way around, I've never Mat lose at dice because someone he doesn't know about is watching him suspiciously.

 

It certainly does in other situations with Mat, that's clear, (at one point a wall fell on him just because that's what has to happen for him to fulfill his destiny) but when it comes to pure dice style luck, he seems to have basically total conscious control at this point.

[TootThatHorn]

I wouldn't say the Tuon encounter is evidence of him using it successfully. That was the Pattern knowing better than to have the Seanchan follow dark Rand; who knows what would have happened if that was allowed. Also the thing with the food to me is Rand simply having an understanding of how his taveren nature, and his sunny disposition, would bend chance; it doesn't really say one way or the other that he consciously influenced it. To me anyways.

[Yosarian]

The food in general, I don't think is conscious. The two specific examples I gave (the apples and the boxes) really seemed to be, though. He seemed to know what he was doing, it seemed to work the way he thought it would, and he seemed to understand what the effect would be.

[Suttree]

He did use it against Tuon successfully. We saw how strongly it affected her mind.

 

What? It would have been disaster had things gone the way Rand wanted. The pattern certainly needed the outcome it got.

 

As for the food as I said above it comes down to Rand understanding how ta'veren works now. He didn't magically wish for the food to be better and change it to be so. Per RJ there are limits and there had to be a chance of that happening. That is not bending the pattern to your will.

[Yosarian]

He did use it against Tuon successfully. We saw how strongly it affected her mind.

 

What? It would have been disaster had things gone the way Rand wanted. The pattern certainly needed the outcome it got.

 

...then why did it have any effect at all? It clearly did have a mental effect on her.

 

As for the food as I said above it comes down to Rand understanding how ta'veren works now. He didn't magically wish for the food to be better and change it to be so. Per RJ there are limits and there had to be a chance of that happening. That is not bending the pattern to your will.

 

It has to be something that is possible, yes. That's the hint that what happend in ToM was Ta'veren work. That being said, this clearly isn't something that's just happening without Rand's control or knowledge:

 

ToM, p. 409

 

"Peace, iralin," Rand said softly. "It is not so bad as you think." He stepped foward and yanked free the tie on the top of a sack. It fell to the side, and golden barley spilled from it across the front of the hold, not a single speck of darkness on it. The barley looked as if it had just been harvested, each grain plump and full.

 

Milis gasped. "What did you do it it?"

 

"Nothing," Rand said. "You merely opened the wrong sacks. The rest are all good."

 

"Merely..." Iralin said. "We happened to open the exact number of bad sacks without reaching one of the good ones? That's ridiculous."

 

"Not ridiculous," Rand said, laying his hand Irlin's shoulder. "Simply implausible."

 

That last line shows that it's ta'veren at work here; this was something that was possible, they just happened to open all the bad food bags and none of the good ones, just really unlikely. But Rand knew it would happen before he opened the first bag, and he knows that it's every single bag that is now safe without even looking. This isn't just "unlikely events happen more often" anymore; they do, and Rand knew it would and knew what would happen before it did.

[Suttree]

That last line shows that it's ta'veren at work here; this was something that was possible, they just happened to open all the bad food bags and none of the good ones, just really unlikely. But Rand knew it would happen before he opened the first bag, and he knows that it's every single bag that is now safe without even looking. This isn't just "unlikely events happen more often" anymore; they do, and Rand knew it would and knew what would happen before it did.

 

Yes because he understands how it works now. My pointwas he has knowledge of the process but does not control it. If something is impossible it doesn't matter how badly Rand wants the pattern to bend to his will, he cannot make it so.

 

Robert Jordan

 

That would be pushing the laws of coincidence, if you wish to call them that, a bit far. What a ta'veren does, remember, in effect, is unwittingly bend the laws of chance to favor himself, and to affect other lives. What would happen one time in a million without him there will happen because he IS there. But there really are limits.

[Yosarian]

It has to be something possible, yes.

 

But he does seem have more control over it. Instead of "possible but unlikely things happen when he walks into a town randomly, killing or saving random people", now it seems like he can actually use ta'veren to intentionally push towards a specific possible but unlikely thing happen. What's more, at least by the last book, he actually knows that it will work.

 

Dark Rand's apparent ability to control his dark ta'veren ability was actually kind of terrifying, in fact.

 

"Cadsune," he said softly, "do you believe that I could kill you? Right here, right now, without using a sword or the Power? Do you believe that if I simply willed it, the Pattern would bend around me and stop your heart? By...coincidence?"

 

Being ta'veren didn't work that way. Light! It didn't, did it? He couldn't bend the very Pattern to his will, could he?

 

And yet, meeting his eyes, she did believe. Against all logic, she looked in those eyes and knew that if she didn't leave, she would die.

 

She nodded slowly, hating herself, strangely weak.

 

I guess we didn't find out if he actually could have done it, but the way the text was worded, I'm pretty confident that he could have, if he so chose. If he was wrong about that; that would make Cadsuane just pathetic for caving here, and I don't buy that.

 

Again, Cadsuane suddenly having a heart attack is possible, just unlikely, so it is something that ta'veren could theoretically do. They key thing here is the claim made by Rand can now direct his ta'veren ability by "simply willing it". We never actually see him doing that in TGS, but I think we do in ToM (just not from his point of view).

[Suttree]

I guess we didn't find out if he actually could have done it, but the way the text was worded, I'm pretty confident that he could have, if he so chose. If he was wrong about that; that would make Cadsuane just pathetic for caving here, and I don't buy that.

 

Again, Cadsuane suddenly having a heart attack is possible, just unlikely, so it is something that ta'veren could theoretically do. They key thing here is the claim made by Rand can now direct his ta'veren ability by "simply willing it". We never actually see him doing that in TGS, but I think we do in ToM (just not from his point of view).

 

Naw, it wouldn't of worked and there certainly is nothing pathetic about Cads believing he could given all that had been going on with his darkness. Her claim of "ta'veren didn't work that way" is a clever nod to the reality of the situation. If the pattern absolutely needed it to happen than it could but he can't just will things on a whim like that. He never wills anything in ToM. As RJ has made clear the pattern uses ta'veren, not the other way around.

[Viperswhip]

Well, it is left ambiguous in the text so we can circle the drain ad nauseum. She believes he can kill her with the pattern, she makes that very, very clear. It might only be a momentary belief but she believed. So did I.

[Yosarian]

He never wills anything in ToM.

 

Then what is it that you think happened in that ToM scene I just quoted?

[Suttree]

He never wills anything in ToM.

 

Then what is it that you think happened in that ToM scene I just quoted?

 

As I said earlier, combination of a better understanding of how ta'veren works and fisher king.

 

nterview: 2010

 

Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)

Azral Hanan (2 August 2010)

 

Why is the Dragon 'one with the Land'? Is it just due to him being ta'veren or is there more to it?

Brandon Sanderson (2 August 2010)

 

 

More to it. More about being the Dragon than being ta'veren. Who he is.

 

 

He specifically says the food is tied to that...

 

 

 

Interview: Nov 15th, 2009

 

TGS Signing Report - Katie Frey (Paraphrased)

Question

 

Is there a connection between the spoilage of food and Rand's temperament?

Brandon Sanderson

 

Look at the Fisher King prophecies, and the prophecies in WoT that mention that the "land and the Dragon are one."

 

 

Interview: Oct 30th, 2009

 

TGS Signing Report - jharoldson (Paraphrased)

jharoldson

 

I...asked Brandon a question regarding Graendal possibly not being dead. I started by saying that Graendal was ordered to keep Arad Doman in chaos. After she was killed Rand was forced out of Arad Doman because all of the food he brought spoiled all at the same time, not in random intervals like had happened before due to the Dark One's touch. My question to Brandon is was this food spoilage caused by the Dark One or could it have been a strong channeler with inverted weaves, perhaps someone who was ordered to make sure that Rand's plans in Arad Doman failed?

Brandon Sanderson

 

Brandon told me explicitly that this was not caused by someone channeling but instead it was caused by Rand. Robert Jordan evidently left strong notes regarding the fact that the quote we heard early on in the story from Thom about "The Dragon is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon" will be emphasized towards the end of the story. When people complained that only bad ta'veren things happened in Bandar Eban when Rand was there with no offsetting good things this was an example that as Rand has hardened and become darker the land has also grown more dark. The spoiling of all the food at once was also caused by the darkness in Rand.

 

He had moved past his "dark" phase and knew that now that he was better his being one with the land combined with ta'veren nature could lead to that being the case. That however is far different than "bending the pattern to his will". I actually think we are pretty close here in our definitions. He is certainly confident that he can twist fate with his presence, but that is not the same as bending the pattern to his will. Again, ta'veren are corrective mechanisms for the pattern. They do not control it however.