Missed Opportunities

[Tyler Glembo]

That is why Traveling is so ridiculously overpowered. Fact is, a few of the Forsaken with a few angreal and some BA sisters to bump them up to the Magical Thirteen ARE more powerful than the entirety of a WT or Wise Ones who do not have Traveling.

So being immensely strong in the OP, being able to link, and being possessed of several powerful angreal makes Traveling overpowered? Something of a logical disconnect there.

 

We're not speaking of frontal assaults BTW. Just Mongol like strike-and-retreat's against population centers that will transform the entirety of Randland into a barbarian, decivilized wasteland within a couple of months.

 

As regards destroying the world, they have immortality anyway. They will be able to rebuild. Slaves can be bred from human survivors. Etc.

 

Just because you plan to have eternity, doesn't mean you want to spend the first few centuries rebuilding from the Stone Age, when the current Age is already less civilised and less advanced than the Age you came from. Also, the Chosen are a rare and precious resource - to use them so openly risks them, for no real benefit. They have no reason to want to do what you suggest - it works far better for them to carve out their own power bases. Most of them aren't generals, they have no reason to desire open warfare. Let the Lord of Chaos rule was an order from on high, not their own master plan. Even if what you come up with would be successful from a certain perspective, it isn't what the Chosen want and it isn't what Shai'tan wants.

 

 

 

Given the success the forsaken have had in carving out their own power bases I think that a guerilla warfare tactic would have put them at less risk. Quick strikes that it are impossible to respond to that sow chaos would have keep them completely anonymous and Rand would not have found them. Claiming a power base seems to be awfully like lighting a beacon for Rand to come kill you and unite the country under the banner of the Dragon Reborn.

 

EDIT: Also, who says it isn't what Shait'an wants? Shaidar Haran seems pretty happy with anything that causes destruction or chaos and punishes when such plans fail.

[avernite]

Meh.

 

The trick would be obvious: use saidin, open gateway outside town, lob in a dozen fireballs, close gateway. Fire has a nasty tendency to spread, but by being quick noone will know where to check for residues.

 

 

Now, this is not going to DESTROY urban civilization in one go. But if every city in the westlands just burned to a cinder (and probably it will happen, a handful of aes sedai can't stop fires springing up all over a city) with most people not quite sure HOW (some will claim balls of fire, but most of the devastation will just be the fires spreading) there's not much left to do about it. They can rebuild, and will, but it seems it would have almost wrecked civilization if coupled with the lasting summer.

 

And remember, they don't need to destroy civilization. Just unbalance it enough for the Dark One's return.

[Shaidar]

^ Yep, and a bonus is that everyone will blame the Aes Sedai! Win win!!!

 

Or why not do that gateway unraveling/explosion thing. Get the Forsaken together, have them open up a gateway in a block, start unraveling it, Travel away, BOOM!, rinse and repeat block by block in a systemic fashion until the entire thing is leveled. Power expenditure is pretty modest too.

 

Someone like Demandred would be able to rinse a city like Caemlyn off the face of the earth in an hour or so. That's without angreal, without circles. Even if there's Aes Sedai they will not be able to detect Demandred channeling anyway (and if they did... well, what is one Elaida going to do with Demandred??).

[Tyler Glembo]

Only problem with that is that if you start to unravel a weave you never know what might happen. It could go boom, it could kill you, anything. Elayne just got lucky.

[Suttree]

Or why not do that gateway unraveling/explosion thing. Get the Forsaken together, have them open up a gateway in a block, start unraveling it, Travel away, BOOM!, rinse and repeat block by block in a systemic fashion until the entire thing is leveled. Power expenditure is pretty modest too.

 

The forsaken think that it is impossible as evidenced by Moridin's reaction when he sees Avi do it.

 

TPoD Ch. 2

He was about to turn away when the outlines of the gateway suddenly began to flex and tremble. Transfixed, he watched until the opening simply – melted. He had never been a man to give way to obscenities, but several rose in his mind. What had the woman done? These barbarous rustics offered too many surprises. A way to Heal being severed, however imperfectly. That was impossible! Except that they had done it. Involuntary rings. Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time, but whenever he thought he had the measure of them, these primitivesrevealed some new skill, did something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of. Something the pinnacle of civilization had not known! What had the girl done?

[Cybertrolloc]

https://en.wikipedia...adikim_Nistarim

 

Off the top of my head, Forsaken level channelers unopposed should probably be able to put a big dent (>50% dead or wish they were) in a few cities per day without breathing hard. This is just things we've seen them do applied in the manner they've been used, no "just take Asmo's air-based razor-blade death trap and move it around = dead everything for miles" or whatever hideous TaR tricks are available to drive a population crazy. I'll cite Sammy + Illian's army v Rand's coalition + 2 ashamen in Tear in ACoS though we just get a report on it. Of course very few channelers have the potential to do such things alone (outside links) and the really good stuff is known only to the AoL vets for the most part.

 

Also, taking the reins of a country in a few weeks/months (Sam, Rhavin, Belal) isn't so bad either :)

 

Edit: granted them being capable of doing something like wipe a city off the map doesn't mean the pattern will allow for it, whether they slip on a banana peel or get distracted into doing something else...

[Shaidar]

"The forsaken think that it is impossible as evidenced by Moridin's reaction when he sees Avi do it."

 

Good point, forgot about that.

 

Still, there's always good old fashioned fires and earthquakes. :)

[SylvanFox]

Well, considering that it's on the DO's orders that they did the whole "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule", it might not be surprising that the strategy is flawed. After all, haven't the Forsaken mentioned something about being very surprised at what the DO doesn't seem to know? Maybe he just does not comprehend warfare. He just touches stuff and it dies. Maybe he likes that. Maybe he wants to enjoy sucking the life out of the world, and would like there to be plenty of life left to suck.

 

When I first read that line, "Let the Lord of Chaos rule", I thought that it was actually a command to stand by and let Rand do whatever he wants. It was probably just a metaphor for all hell breaking loose, but it seems like they have left Rand somewhat alone while he hunted them down, at least for a while. It might have been a ploy to get Rand to turn to the Shadow, in which case it came damn close to working out.

[Tensai0211]

Given the success the forsaken have had in carving out their own power bases I think that a guerilla warfare tactic would have put them at less risk. Quick strikes that it are impossible to respond to that sow chaos would have keep them completely anonymous and Rand would not have found them. Claiming a power base seems to be awfully like lighting a beacon for Rand to come kill you and unite the country under the banner of the Dragon Reborn.

 

There also trying to remain anonymous from each other, Their inability to cooperate and inherit mistrust of each other is perhaps one of the reasons they couldn't do this - travel into a random city, begins attack and end up in a confrontation with another Forsaken, oops. i doubt anyone of them wants to get into a face to face confrontation without having the upper hand.

[Yosarian]

Also, did you ever hear the expression "generals always re-fight the last war"? The millitary-minded Forsaken are trying to do what they did last time, which was baiscally:

1. Quietly take over large parts of the world over decades (it was 50-100 years between when the Bore was opened and when the war of Shadow started)

2. War of Shadow starts

3. Worldwide war, mostly large scale conventional war with armies of shadow-aligned countries fighting armies from light-aligned countries.

 

That tactic almost worked for them last time, and probably would have without LT's last ditch plan. Why wouldn't they try it again?

 

The difference is this time, Rand isn't really using much conventional military combat against the Forsaken, he's gone a lot more for "scry and die" tactics; find out where the enemy forsaken is, teleport in yourself, blast them. It sounds like Lewis Therrin was more likely to use conventional military tactics instead; Rand doesn't really think like a general, more like a hero archetype.

[FarShainMael]

^ Yep, and a bonus is that everyone will blame the Aes Sedai! Win win!!!

 

Or why not do that gateway unraveling/explosion thing. Get the Forsaken together, have them open up a gateway in a block, start unraveling it, Travel away, BOOM!, rinse and repeat block by block in a systemic fashion until the entire thing is leveled. Power expenditure is pretty modest too.

 

Someone like Demandred would be able to rinse a city like Caemlyn off the face of the earth in an hour or so. That's without angreal, without circles. Even if there's Aes Sedai they will not be able to detect Demandred channeling anyway (and if they did... well, what is one Elaida going to do with Demandred??).

 

Remember that there is a countermeasure available to gateways - dreamspikes! They may well have been developed as a defence against exactly this sort of attack.

[Mr Ares]

Also Nyn is almost half as strong as 10 of above average AS (group includes Siuan, Leane and Sheriam - who all stand pretty high) using wand of destiny (Vora's) as in the Great Hunt (added: should be beginning of DR not GH) - she's probably stronger now.

There's nothing to support that.

 

Nothing to support her original strength or that she's stronger now? the first is backed up by her own statement and the fact that neither Eg or Elayne contradict her. Not conclusive proof, but once they know how they appear to be able to judge each others strength pretty accurately I can dig out the quote when I get back home.

The first - it is not, despite what you say, supported by her statement. She never claims to be almost half as strong. And while she is stronger no than she was then, she is likely still not half as strong as they were during Mat's Healing.

 

That is why Traveling is so ridiculously overpowered. Fact is, a few of the Forsaken with a few angreal and some BA sisters to bump them up to the Magical Thirteen ARE more powerful than the entirety of a WT or Wise Ones who do not have Traveling.

So being immensely strong in the OP, being able to link, and being possessed of several powerful angreal makes Traveling overpowered? Something of a logical disconnect there.

 

We're not speaking of frontal assaults BTW. Just Mongol like strike-and-retreat's against population centers that will transform the entirety of Randland into a barbarian, decivilized wasteland within a couple of months.

 

As regards destroying the world, they have immortality anyway. They will be able to rebuild. Slaves can be bred from human survivors. Etc.

 

Just because you plan to have eternity, doesn't mean you want to spend the first few centuries rebuilding from the Stone Age, when the current Age is already less civilised and less advanced than the Age you came from. Also, the Chosen are a rare and precious resource - to use them so openly risks them, for no real benefit. They have no reason to want to do what you suggest - it works far better for them to carve out their own power bases. Most of them aren't generals, they have no reason to desire open warfare. Let the Lord of Chaos rule was an order from on high, not their own master plan. Even if what you come up with would be successful from a certain perspective, it isn't what the Chosen want and it isn't what Shai'tan wants.

 

Given the success the forsaken have had in carving out their own power bases I think that a guerilla warfare tactic would have put them at less risk. Quick strikes that it are impossible to respond to that sow chaos would have keep them completely anonymous and Rand would not have found them. Claiming a power base seems to be awfully like lighting a beacon for Rand to come kill you and unite the country under the banner of the Dragon Reborn.

 

EDIT: Also, who says it isn't what Shait'an wants? Shaidar Haran seems pretty happy with anything that causes destruction or chaos and punishes when such plans fail.

If Shai'tan wanted that, don't you think He would have asked for it? Given that he didn't ask for them to destroy civilisation across the continent or world, we can surmse that that is not what He wants. Also:

WEEK 5 QUESTION

Did the Dark One or Ishamael, either one, have a say in the placement of any or all of the other Chosen once they were released, or did they all just carve out power bases of their own choosing?

ROBERT JORDAN

 

They carved out power bases of their own choosing based on various criteria, one of which I will reveal. (Others are definitely RAFO!) For the most part, Ishamael excepted, they set out to create worldly power for themselves using the methods they favored in the Age of Legends. That is, Moghedien worked from the shadows using subversion, Sammael, Be'lal and Rahvin attempted to seize control of national governments and so on. The theory behind this was that once the Dark One broke free, those with the largest worldly power bases would be rewarded most.

Their theory may be wrong, but their actions make sense based on what they believe, while the alternative plans suggested do not.

[Tyler Glembo]

Thank you for the quote. Makes a lot of sense.

[Wool-headed lummox]

The problem with "why don't the Forsaken just kill everyone" issue is that, 13 books into the series, we still don't actually know what the Dark One's goals in Tarmon Gaidon are. We know he wants to unravel the Pattern, break free, and destroy all reality for all time, but we have no clue as to how the unraveling is intended to occur.

 

Will killing most everyone in Randland break the prison? If so, then why hasn't it happened in the parallel world, where the Shadow won the Trolloc wars and depopulated Randland entirely?

 

Will huge amounts of balefire result in the unraveling of the Pattern? If so, then why aren't the Shadow's Forsaken/dreadlords travelling from city to city, blasting them out of existence with balefire? Demandred was given the task of "unleashing balefire" by the DO himself, but we have no idea what he did, or how it affected anyone. The DO still isn't free, that much is certain.

 

Or is the real target the psychological and moral status of Randland's inhabitants? This seems the most consistent with the Shadow's tactics so far, and begs the questions of why the DO would even want to rally the Trollocks against Randland. Wouldn't this cause everyone to unite against their absolute destruction? At the very least the DO could wait a couple of decades, to make sure that social order has declined irreversibly, and that large chunks of Randland are completely under the Forsakens' control.

[Tyler Glembo]

The problem with "why don't the Forsaken just kill everyone" issue is that, 13 books into the series, we still don't actually know what the Dark One's goals in Tarmon Gaidon are. We know he wants to unravel the Pattern, break free, and destroy all reality for all time, but we have no clue as to how the unraveling is intended to occur.

 

Will killing most everyone in Randland break the prison? If so, then why hasn't it happened in the parallel world, where the Shadow won the Trolloc wars and depopulated Randland entirely?

 

Will huge amounts of balefire result in the unraveling of the Pattern? If so, then why aren't the Shadow's Forsaken/dreadlords travelling from city to city, blasting them out of existence with balefire? Demandred was given the task of "unleashing balefire" by the DO himself, but we have no idea what he did, or how it affected anyone. The DO still isn't free, that much is certain.

 

Or is the real target the psychological and moral status of Randland's inhabitants? This seems the most consistent with the Shadow's tactics so far, and begs the questions of why the DO would even want to rally the Trollocks against Randland. Wouldn't this cause everyone to unite against their absolute destruction? At the very least the DO could wait a couple of decades, to make sure that social order has declined irreversibly, and that large chunks of Randland are completely under the Forsakens' control.

 

I think, in the end, the DO will not break free and the Wheel will continue. With that assumption, I doubt any of your questions will actually be answered and it will always be speculation about what the DO really wants and how he could have accomplished such a goal.

[Wool-headed lummox]

I think, in the end, the DO will not break free and the Wheel will continue. With that assumption, I doubt any of your questions will actually be answered and it will always be speculation about what the DO really wants and how he could have accomplished such a goal.

That doesn't exclude the possibility - or the necessity - to provide insight into the main villain's goals. Although I'm sure it will happen the way you described, given that we're talking about Wheel of Time.

 

And if we're asking the questions above, then we might as well ask - why are all the weird things happening in Randland at this particular point in time? Why are there ghosts of dead people walking around? Why do parts of buildings swap places? Why does food rot? Why are bubbles of evil occurring now, and not a hundred years ago? Is it because of the aforementioned reasons, all of which have logic problems of their own? Is it a matter of Lews Therin's patch eroding naturally over time independent of external factors, and it just happened to take 3500 years for the erosion to become noticeable? If so, then why does the DO even bother rallying armies and cooking up crazy plots? Just wait a couple more months/years, and you'll be free. In this case, the DO's strategy would have been purely defensive.

 

Or is everything going to hell because it's the end of an Age, and it's the end of an Age because everything is going to hell?

 

This is why I consider Wheel of Time to be fantasy-themed soap opera. Its premise isn't smart, and its artificiality is very poorly concealed by desperate leaps of logic, dismissal of valid questions, and insistence that the reader takes too much for granted.

[Suttree]

Why does food rot?

 

This is because of Rand and his darkening mood. The DR is one with the land/Fisher King.

 

A number of the other things coem down to the pattern unraveling.

[Yosarian]

Why does food rot?

 

This is because of Rand and his darkening mood. The DR is one with the land/Fisher King.

 

Not entirely. The Dark One's presence is really what's making food rot. Dark Rand made it worse, of course.

 

Remember, in "apples first" in ToM, Rand mentions that they should gather the apples quickly because Rand's presence is only going to hold off the Dark One's decay for a short time.

 

It reminds me of the Blight, where plants literally rot as they are growing. The presence of the Dark One seems to just inherently cause corruption and decay. I don't even think that's a plan on his part, any more then the bubbles of evil are a plan; it's just who he is.

[Suttree]

Why does food rot?

 

This is because of Rand and his darkening mood. The DR is one with the land/Fisher King.

 

Not entirely. The Dark One's presence is really what's making food rot. Dark Rand made it worse, of course.

 

Remember, in "apples first" in ToM, Rand mentions that they should gather the apples quickly because Rand's presence is only going to hold off the Dark One's decay for a short time.

 

It reminds me of the Blight, where plants literally rot as they are growing. The presence of the Dark One seems to just inherently cause corruption and decay. I don't even think that's a plan on his part, any more then the bubbles of evil are a plan; it's just who he is.

 

Maybe not "entirely" but it is the major cause.

 

Interview: Nov 11th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - Tim Kington (Paraphrased)

Question

 

 

How about the food going bad in Bandar Eban? Was that caused by Rand being nearby with his cloud of evil?

Brandon Sanderson

 

We've heard earlier in the books that the Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon. This is an old belief—many kingdoms believed that the wellness of the king was directly tied to the wellness of the land. In WoT, this is quite literally true.

 

 

Interview: Nov 15th, 2009

 

TGS Signing Report - Katie Frey (Paraphrased)

Question

 

Is there a connection between the spoilage of food and Rand's temperament?

Brandon Sanderson

 

Look at the Fisher King prophecies, and the prophecies in WoT that mention that the "land and the Dragon are one."

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

 

Brandon told me explicitly that this was not caused by someone channeling but instead it was caused by Rand. Robert Jordan evidently left strong notes regarding the fact that the quote we heard early on in the story from Thom about "The Dragon is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon" will be emphasized towards the end of the story. When people complained that only bad ta'veren things happened in Bandar Eban when Rand was there with no offsetting good things this was an example that as Rand has hardened and become darker the land has also grown more dark. The spoiling of all the food at once was also caused by the darkness in Rand.

[Yosarian]

Oh, the darkness in Rand was a huge factor. They made clear that while it was happening everywhere in the world, it was happening faster where Dark Rand was.

 

Now it's still happening in most of the world, but the areas close to where Light Rand is seem to be temporally immune.

 

Like I said, from Towers of Midnight, page 58:

 

"It's not you who is mad, friend" the stranger said. "But the entire world. Gather the apples quickly. My presence will hold him off for a time, I think, and whatever you take now should be safe from him."

 

"Him" is obviously the Dark One. Light Rand can hold off the touch of the Dark One's touch for a time, though, at least in one small area of the world.

[Wool-headed lummox]

Darth Rand made food spoil faster, and Rand Sedai makes food spoil slower, but the unnatural tendency of food to spoil is present everywhere in Randland, regardless of Rand.

 

Anyway, that's not the point. The point is - everything that concerns the Dark One makes no sense at all, and not in the sense of "breaker of reason, lord of chaos", but in the sense of "random things thrown into the books without any rhyme or reason, for the sake of drama/adventure".

 

 

A number of the other things coem down to the pattern unraveling.

Oh yeah? Like what?

 

Remember, in "apples first" in ToM, Rand mentions that they should gather the apples quickly because Rand's presence is only going to hold off the Dark One's decay for a short time.

Actually, that was a bonehead line, it's not like apples can't spoil AFTER they've been plucked from the trees. What he should have said, was "stuff your faces quickly". Anyway, that quote rules out Suttree's theory, food spoils everywhere because of the Dark One, Rand's presence simply holds it off in a localized area for a limited amount of time. It's spelled out that way, for Light's sake.

[Suttree]

Darth Rand made food spoil faster, and Rand Sedai makes food spoil slower, but the unnatural tendency of food to spoil is present everywhere in Randland, regardless of Rand.

 

Not true. The Dragon being one with the land is the cause of that and it effects the world at large. He doesn't have to be present. Just because Rand says that in "apples first" doesn't mean he is correct on the topic. I'll look for more quotes on this.

 

KC

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow,

for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.

 

 

Oh yeah? Like what?

 

Rooms changing and the dead appearing. The fabric of reality is beginning to unravel.

 

Interview: Nov 8th, 2010

TOM Signing Report - Ted Herman (Paraphrased)

Ted Herman

 

Paraphrased since it is a long question (though I did read it right from my iPhone as it was worded): Are the ghost sightings and strange window seen in Tel'aran'rhiod (flame and fang) due to the Mirror Worlds merging?

Brandon Sanderson

 

They are both due to the Pattern unraveling.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The answer to all of that is simple, as Suttree said. The unravelling of the Pattern - which is due to the DO - and partially balefire.

 

As to why it did not start 100 years ago, again, it is because the DO's seals were not weak enough. The pattern unravels due to the DO's increasing influence on the world.

 

While balefire does contribute to that, it hasn't been used (at least not in sufficient quantities) since the AoL, when both sides stopped using it. It is only since Rand learned balefire (ironic much?) that it has been used enough to produce pattern-damaging consequences - balescreams.

 

The Forsaken couldn't be convinced to balefire the crap out of everything because they don't want the Pattern to unravel - we witness this in LoC Prologue with Demandred.

 

The only one that would be willing to is Ishamael, and he may well have used some in the times he was spun out. But one man without any sa'angreal's like the Chodean Kal or Callandor cannot destabalize the pattern. It may have caused just enough irregularities to help his plans in the Trolloc Wars and Hawkwing's era, but not enough to do any real damage - and the damage is fixed over time, as we see from the AoL, where reality began to fade, but it recovered when balefire/DO was stopped.

 

The speculation about balefire being currently used to destabilize the pattern has it's merits, considering the conversation the DO has with Demandred, and the balescream we see in KoD. I'd say it was Moridin, not Demandred that would be using balefire indiscriminately, but it could be the DO has managed to coax the others into using it in smaller portions to help the destabilization.

[Viperswhip]

I think we have to assume that, other than Ishy, the others want society to go on, they want it to advance back to where it was (they all miss the luxury), so destroying half of Randland is...counter productive.

 

I don't think they understand that through massive control you will not allow the intellectual freedom to increase general wealth and knowledge to the point where discoveries are made and available, but they probably know that wholesale destruction is a giant step backwards.

[Yosarian]

 

Not true. The Dragon being one with the land is the cause of that and it effects the world at large. He doesn't have to be present.

 

 

Both times we saw the Dragon directly affect something, he was there. The apples, and the crates of food on the sea folk ships.

 

I'm sure to some extent he does affect the pattern as a whole in a positive way, now. It's clear, though, that even now at his full strength, he doesn't have enough to hold the pattern together and stop food from rotting indefinitely. The Dark One's touch is still slowly poisoning the whole world, despite Rand's best efforts. That's why he has to break the seals and end this.

 

Yes, he is the Fisher King, and yes, his state does effect the whole pattern, and especially helps hold back the corrupting influence of the dark one. This seems to be especially true in his own presence. But he's still weaker then the Dark One.

 

Just because Rand says that in "apples first" doesn't mean he is correct on the topic.

 

Rand now has integrated the full memory of Lewis Therrin. He seems to have a total control and understanding of his new ability to bend the pattern in positive ways, and seems to have a good understanding of how his new abilities work. I think that at this point, we can pretty safely assume that when he has confidence in how something like this works, that he is correct.