The rise (and fall) of nudity in the WoT

[Shaidar]

Yep. Even speaking of Rhuidean, however, if you recall only the chicks have to go there nude. Don't tell me that this isn't part of a pattern. :)

 

Not that I mind (being a dude). Still, that isn't the same thing as saying it's realistic. After all in the real world it's typically the male initiation rituals e.g. frats, special military units, etc. that involve hazing rituals featuring nakedness among other things.

[Barid Bel Medar]

RJ didn't like male nudity, he didn't want any male nudity if they ever made a film/TV adaptation of it. He was less hesitant with female nudity, but I don't think it was any kind of sinister fetish. It was in part because of his upbringing. He was very conservative in some aspects, and this is one of them.

 

Having said that, there have been plenty of scenes with male nudity. Far less than female nudity, of course, and far less descriptive, but there are plenty of instances. Rand with the maidens many times, Rand after getting stabbed by Fain in aCoS. The first nudity scene was a male one with the 3 boys, Lan and Thom in the baths in Baerlon. Perrin has been nude, the one that comes to mind is in Berelain's tent after trying to kill himself via freezing.

 

Mat has been nude as well, the example that comes ot mind is with the DF Aiel woman and afterwards.

 

So while far more common than male nudity, it isn't an exclusive thing or sinisterly sexist.

[Yosarian]

Mat has been nude as well, the example that comes ot mind is with the DF Aiel woman and afterwards.

 

Also Lanfear of all people walked in on him naked right after he had gotten healed at the white tower.

[TristanWebb]

Yep. Even speaking of Rhuidean, however, if you recall only the chicks have to go there nude. Don't tell me that this isn't part of a pattern. :)

 

Not that I mind (being a dude). Still, that isn't the same thing as saying it's realistic. After all in the real world it's typically the male initiation rituals e.g. frats, special military units, etc. that involve hazing rituals featuring nakedness among other things.

The female rituals all involve a new beginning though. Accepted test, apprentice test involve throwing away an old life and being reborn to a new. The male rites we have seen are continuations of life so they don't need nudity as a symbol of birth.

[batcaver]

Watching this thread leave the runway, I'm wishing it a long and deranged journey. So much potential.

 

On topic, I always felt like the sexuality in WoT was a little too understated. I'm looking not for porn transcripts here, just saying that RJ panned to the fireplace so habitually that it became jarring to me sometimes. Maybe he just wanted to keep the books kid friendly. I'm sure one of you guys know more about his feelings on it than I do. It's just always weird to me when an author is willing to depict graphic violence but shies away from sex. I just think any mature author has to have that arrow in his/her quiver. I'm willing to concede that this is just a personal opinion. Then again, there were plenty of times that WOT sexuality was just plain creepy, so maybe it's just as well.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think that RJ didn't want to write porn-like scenes.

 

He liked to keep things subtle, like Talmanes, on the surface calm but with the twinkle in his eye.

 

I personally didn't find it jarring, I thought it was tactful.

 

I much prefer it to the blunt and pretty much vulgar porn scenes you get in ASOIAF which seem to have little point beyond being gritty and shocking.

 

However, it is a matter of taste really. Some people will like it, some people wont, so your opinion is as valid as mine.

[batcaver]

I think that RJ didn't want to write porn-like scenes.

 

He liked to keep things subtle, like Talmanes, on the surface calm but with the twinkle in his eye.

 

I personally didn't find it jarring, I thought it was tactful.

 

I much prefer it to the blunt and pretty much vulgar porn scenes you get in ASOIAF which seem to have little point beyond being gritty and shocking.

 

However, it is a matter of taste really. Some people will like it, some people wont, so your opinion is as valid as mine.

 

That makes perfect sense. My wife feels exactly the same way about it. And I'd agree as well about ASOIAF. Shock value seems like a very high priority in that series.

[SylvanFox]

Watching this thread leave the runway, I'm wishing it a long and deranged journey. So much potential.

 

On topic, I always felt like the sexuality in WoT was a little too understated. I'm looking not for porn transcripts here, just saying that RJ panned to the fireplace so habitually that it became jarring to me sometimes. Maybe he just wanted to keep the books kid friendly. I'm sure one of you guys know more about his feelings on it than I do. It's just always weird to me when an author is willing to depict graphic violence but shies away from sex. I just think any mature author has to have that arrow in his/her quiver. I'm willing to concede that this is just a personal opinion. Then again, there were plenty of times that WOT sexuality was just plain creepy, so maybe it's just as well.

 

Not everybody can write these kinds of scenes. They come off terrible in so many other books, I can see RJ deciding to avoid this because it's just not his area of talent. Why put in something that adds little and reads poorly?

[Hagazussa]

So while far more common than male nudity, it isn't an exclusive thing or sinisterly sexist.

 

I do not think it is sexist that there is more female nudity, and I would rather have only female nudity that the author can describe well than have scenes with male nudity that get awkward because the author is awkward. I also think it might be a bit about how society view nudity as well. Most girls I know have no problems with seeing a woman naked, that is just natural, while most boys I know do have a problem with depictions of naked men (well most that I know well enough to know how they react to naked folks that is) and you see this all over the place. It is far more socially acceptable for women to be okey with other women being naked, than for a man to be okey with seeing another man naked, that is just the way it is, it might be stupid but I do not think it is sexist and Jordan might have been thinking like that, that female nudity is okey as none will be creped out by it, but if we got to see if nature had gifted Taim with more than a large channeling ability some might feel a little weird about it. :P

 

On topic, I always felt like the sexuality in WoT was a little too understated. I'm looking not for porn transcripts here, just saying that RJ panned to the fireplace so habitually that it became jarring to me sometimes. Maybe he just wanted to keep the books kid friendly. I'm sure one of you guys know more about his feelings on it than I do. It's just always weird to me when an author is willing to depict graphic violence but shies away from sex. I just think any mature author has to have that arrow in his/her quiver. I'm willing to concede that this is just a personal opinion. Then again, there were plenty of times that WOT sexuality was just plain creepy, so maybe it's just as well.

 

I like how Jordan handles sex, he manages to say it all with only a few words. When Toveine grumps that she had felt over the bond what Logain had been up to last night so she thought she would never fall asleep and then she see her fellow Aes Sedai come out of Logain's house adjusting her clothes, that tell the reader everything they need to know about what Logain was up to. I do not need a full in out, in out description to understand what was happening, I can vividly imagine it in my mind's eye. Often subtlety can say more than intricate descriptions and I think that scene was actually in many ways more erotic without saying a word about what happened that a three page description of mage on mage bed wresting.

 

That being said I do agree that often in society descriptions of terrible violence is okey but not descriptions of sex and I think that is wrong, but I do not think that is what Jordan was going for, I think he was going for subtlety since that can actually enhance a scene, it is just like a petty woman dressed in something that hints at what is beneath can be more enticing that a stark naked one when you can see it all.

 

The female rituals all involve a new beginning though. Accepted test, apprentice test involve throwing away an old life and being reborn to a new. The male rites we have seen are continuations of life so they don't need nudity as a symbol of birth.

 

This is a good point, a very good point.

[Mr Ares]

Jordan said in an interview that one of his inspirations for Wheel of Time was a world that would eventually evolve into a setting with complete gender equality. Now in Wheel of Time you have gender equality but you still have rigid gender roles, women and men have different places in society but they are equally valued.

 

Are you kidding me? Equally valued!? In Far Madding men have virtually no rights and aren't valued at all. In Andor a men can't be the leader of the country and succession is decided by how many female links that person has to the first Queen (who only won the throne due to her marriage to Souraine Maravaile, one of Artur Hawkwing's best generals but his contribution and indeed the army's contribution is ignored by Elaine and the other spoilt noblewomen who want to be Queen), and there's a place where if a woman kills a man it's fully legally justified unless it can be proved otherwise. I think it might be Ebou Dar but I'm not sure. I'm sure there are other things and places as well but I can't think of them at this moment.

 

I realise this one sidedness and prejudice against men is part of the story so I don't let it wind me up as much as it did when I was younger, but I can't sit by while people try to claim men and women are equally valued in Randland. By the way I do know there are some countries where men and women are equally valued such as the borderlands, Cairhen and others.

Actually the Andoran throne accounts all links to the Ishara, not just female lines of descent, and frankly, if the only difference you can cite between treatment of men and women in the country is that there is one position that only women can hold, I'd say that doesn't speak to men being disadvantaged or valued less than women in that country - not forgetting that the majority of countries are not represented by your list. They are the exceptions, not the rule. So saying men are valued as highly as women is, across the world, more or less accurate.

 

To Mr Ares

 

We do see an example of Taim punishing someone in KoD epilogue - cracking a skull with a club of Air and saying he can have Healing if he's still alive in the morning. I'm not a great expert on BDSM, but I think that's a little more... brutal than most would tend to consider a turn on.

 

That would not be safe, sane and consensual no. :P But that is kind of my point that I have made several times now, when men are done physical violence to as punishment it is usually so brutal and of a character that definitely would not turn anyone one, while with women it is more in the lines of beatings for humiliation that do little real damage.

Look at it less in terms of gender and more in terms of society - the AS value their own lives highly. Therefore, punishments that do no lasting harm, save perhaps to the ego, are good, because they don't risk valuable AS lives. The Asha'man, who are trained as living weapons, are not valued as highly - they are pushed to learn fast. Harsh punishments which get the message across quickly are preferred over ones that merely humiliate. The Seanchan are willing to use mutilation as a punishment for damane, who are even more dehumanised than the Asha'man, and also use other harsh forms of punishment (such as Suroth being handed to the Deathwatch Guards to gang raped until her hair grows out, then sold as a slave). For the Aiel, who tend to be less bothered by pain, the most extreme punishments are those that involve worthless labour (although they are willing to give someone a sound whipping). Outside of the AS, which punishments are mostly in the form of humiliation? I can think of Mat in KoD, spanking an AS (although that seems fairly justified - what better way for someone with a strong instinct to protect women to punish a woman who is so keen to act like a child?) And, of course, as they are an exclusively female organisation, it is of necessity that women get the majority of the "light" (or kinky) punishments.

 

On the other hand, given that spanking is far more common as a form of kink, it's probably easier for people to see all the spanking as kinky, rather than as just a punishment. People are drawing the connection themselves because in this day and age it's uncommon to consider spanking an adult as something appropriate outside of a bedroom context. On the other hand, beating someone unconscious is easy to see as a form of harsh and brutal discipline.

 

This might be it, but then there are allot of books that have beatings that in no way makes most people think in BDSM terms. It is not that non lethal forms of beatings are used as punishment to give pain that is a strange concept to wrap one's brain around it is more the flavor of how it is done in the Wheel of Time books. Now I am not saying that Jordan intended BDSM themes to be in his books, I am just saying that some of the flavor of the books make them fan favorites among folks interested in BDSM that is all.

Which books feature spanking of adults in a non-sexual situation that people don't link to BDSM? And cropping up as regularly as it does in WoT? Someone being whipped bloody isn't something one would link to BDSM, but being lightly spanked with a slipper, in a way which is somewhat uncomfortable, perhaps, but more a matter of humiliation than genuine pain is, rather more so. What happens in WoT is superficially pretty much what would be expected from BDSM.

 

To Saken:

 

No actually it do not mean that one is a deviant or that something is wrong with you for enjoying BDSM, just like you are not a deviant and there is nothing wrong with you if you are gay, bisexual and so on. BDSM is a sexual preference and it is done between consenting adults and I actually take quite a bit of offense at you calling me and my hubby and a good portion of my friends for deviants and indicate that there is something wrong with us for how we prefer to interact in bed. I suggest you lean a bit about BDSM before you condemn it.

By dictionary definition, BDSM - indeed, homo- and bisexuality as well - is deviant. "Thing or person that deviates from normal behaviour". It is an accurate word if not, due to pejorative overtones, a good one to use.

 

Check out the "Men's Rights Movement" thread in the D&D section of the forum ;)

Omg. Privilege is so tough.

Given that many Western societies are transitioning from male privilege to female privilege...

[Hagazussa]

Look at it less in terms of gender and more in terms of society - the AS value their own lives highly. Therefore, punishments that do no lasting harm, save perhaps to the ego, are good, because they don't risk valuable AS lives. The Asha'man, who are trained as living weapons, are not valued as highly - they are pushed to learn fast. Harsh punishments which get the message across quickly are preferred over ones that merely humiliate.

 

That is a good point yes.

 

The Seanchan are willing to use mutilation as a punishment for damane, who are even more dehumanised than the Asha'man, and also use other harsh forms of punishment (such as Suroth being handed to the Deathwatch Guards to gang raped until her hair grows out, then sold as a slave).

 

But do the Seahcan really mutilate damane? Renna threaten Egwene with it but then later others say that while some like to use it as a threat such things are hardly ever done, damane is to valuable for that. Granted the Empress do like to play with them by having noblemen try on the bracelet to see if anyone dies so I would not put anything past them.

 

Outside of the AS, which punishments are mostly in the form of humiliation? I can think of Mat in KoD, spanking an AS (although that seems fairly justified - what better way for someone with a strong instinct to protect women to punish a woman who is so keen to act like a child?) And, of course, as they are an exclusively female organisation, it is of necessity that women get the majority of the "light" (or kinky) punishments.

 

Yeah well I am not saying that whippings and spankings happen is not justified in setting, they are, there are reasons for them within the context of the story and the context of the societies they happen in, but it is still rather noticeable that whipping and humiliation tend to happen to female characters while the male ones are more likely to be seriously hurt.

 

Which books feature spanking of adults in a non-sexual situation that people don't link to BDSM? And cropping up as regularly as it does in WoT? Someone being whipped bloody isn't something one would link to BDSM, but being lightly spanked with a slipper, in a way which is somewhat uncomfortable, perhaps, but more a matter of humiliation than genuine pain is, rather more so. What happens in WoT is superficially pretty much what would be expected from BDSM.

 

Well yes that the punishments are relatively mild in the violence department is unusual but not unique, whippings happen allot in many settings but right now I can actually not think of one with mild "spanking" of adult characters in a non sexual setting. I am sure there are some but I can not think of any right now.

 

By dictionary definition, BDSM - indeed, homo- and bisexuality as well - is deviant. "Thing or person that deviates from normal behaviour". It is an accurate word if not, due to pejorative overtones, a good one to use.

 

There is allot of words that can be used if you go by the dictionary meaning for various group of people but which is still offensive and should not be used due to how negative they are. Calling someone of his homosexual for deviant is not okey, and neither is it okey to say it about someone who practice BDSM even should the word fit from a dictionary point of view.

 

Given that many Western societies are transitioning from male privilege to female privilege...

 

This is very true and is a negative trend in my mind. Equality mean one gender is not to be valued above the other or get special privilege just based on the shape of one's reproductive organs.

[Saken]

 

By dictionary definition, BDSM - indeed, homo- and bisexuality as well - is deviant. "Thing or person that deviates from normal behaviour". It is an accurate word if not, due to pejorative overtones, a good one to use.

 

There is allot of words that can be used if you go by the dictionary meaning for various group of people but which is still offensive and should not be used due to how negative they are. Calling someone of his homosexual for deviant is not okey, and neither is it okey to say it about someone who practice BDSM even should the word fit from a dictionary point of view.

 

 

I guess you didn't notice the huge smiley face to the right of my text. It was a joke. Since you decided to take it so seriously and out of context, I decided to aggravate you further.

 

The fact is, I don't care what you and your hubby do. If that is what you guys need to have a good time, then rock on. I am pretty sure that the majority of the world does not feel the need to smack each other on the asses with spoons thus making the behavior deviant.

 

Based on what RJ wrote in his series, it would surprise me if he was a person that deviated from social norms during sexual relations.

 

The books are PG. I would allow my children to read them without a second thought.

[Yosarian]

By dictionary definition, BDSM - indeed, homo- and bisexuality as well - is deviant. "Thing or person that deviates from normal behaviour". It is an accurate word if not, due to pejorative overtones, a good one to use.

 

Eh. When you're talking about 10% or more of the population (in cases of either BDSM or homosexual behavior) then that's common enough that you pretty much have to call it "normal behavior." Anything that greater then 10% of the human race as a whole does has to be considered pretty normal.

[Hagazussa]

I guess you didn't notice the huge smiley face to the right of my text. It was a joke. Since you decided to take it so seriously and out of context, I decided to aggravate you further.

 

You know when I try to make a joke and someone do not get it but get insulted I apologize as insulting them was not my intention, I consider that to be the classy way to deal with something, you choose to make more insults, it may be just my deviant mind but I would consider that to be in poor taste.

 

The fact is, I don't care what you and your hubby do. If that is what you guys need to have a good time, then rock on. I am pretty sure that the majority of the world does not feel the need to smack each other on the asses with spoons thus making the behavior deviant.

 

Ah how big minded of you. You know the majority of the world do not read fantasy either is that also then deviant behavior?

 

Based on what RJ wrote in his series, it would surprise me if he was a person that deviated from social norms during sexual relations.

 

I say that from how Jordan wrote his books it is no way to tell what he did or did not do in the bedroom and it is not something I intent to speculate on as that is his and his wife's business and none elses.

 

The books are PG. I would allow my children to read them without a second thought.

 

No one have said that they are not, but they still have themes that could be seen as BDSM related.

[batcaver]

Watching this thread leave the runway, I'm wishing it a long and deranged journey. So much potential.

 

On topic, I always felt like the sexuality in WoT was a little too understated. I'm looking not for porn transcripts here, just saying that RJ panned to the fireplace so habitually that it became jarring to me sometimes. Maybe he just wanted to keep the books kid friendly. I'm sure one of you guys know more about his feelings on it than I do. It's just always weird to me when an author is willing to depict graphic violence but shies away from sex. I just think any mature author has to have that arrow in his/her quiver. I'm willing to concede that this is just a personal opinion. Then again, there were plenty of times that WOT sexuality was just plain creepy, so maybe it's just as well.

 

Not everybody can write these kinds of scenes. They come off terrible in so many other books, I can see RJ deciding to avoid this because it's just not his area of talent. Why put in something that adds little and reads poorly?

 

Again, a very good point, and if that's his reasoning then it makes perfect sense.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

I guess you didn't notice the huge smiley face to the right of my text. It was a joke. Since you decided to take it so seriously and out of context, I decided to aggravate you further.

 

 

Don't do this again. Intentionally aggravating someone is NOT alright, it won't be tolerated.

[Sagacious Lu]

Ah how big minded of you. You know the majority of the world do not read fantasy either is that also then deviant behavior?

 

Absolutely. Normal is watching reality tv and we (collectively on this site) like to read, and that makes us all deviants. To paraphrase X-Men First Class that makes me "deviant and proud" :p

[Hagazussa]

Absolutely. Normal is watching reality tv and we (collectively on this site) like to read, and that makes us all deviants. To paraphrase X-Men First Class that makes me "deviant and proud" :p

 

Well said, I guess I am deviant and proud then. :D

[Sagacious Lu]

*High-five*

[Mr Ares]

The Seanchan are willing to use mutilation as a punishment for damane, who are even more dehumanised than the Asha'man, and also use other harsh forms of punishment (such as Suroth being handed to the Deathwatch Guards to gang raped until her hair grows out, then sold as a slave).

 

But do the Seahcan really mutilate damane? Renna threaten Egwene with it but then later others say that while some like to use it as a threat such things are hardly ever done, damane is to valuable for that. Granted the Empress do like to play with them by having noblemen try on the bracelet to see if anyone dies so I would not put anything past them.

It's not a common punishment, but if a damane has no use for hands, for example, then I wouldn't put it past them to remove the hands if they felt nothing else was likely to work. Even leaving aside that, their normal punishments for damane tend to be more severe than a spanking, even if they don't leave physical scars. They have become very proficient at dehumanising people.

 

Which books feature spanking of adults in a non-sexual situation that people don't link to BDSM? And cropping up as regularly as it does in WoT? Someone being whipped bloody isn't something one would link to BDSM, but being lightly spanked with a slipper, in a way which is somewhat uncomfortable, perhaps, but more a matter of humiliation than genuine pain is, rather more so. What happens in WoT is superficially pretty much what would be expected from BDSM.

 

Well yes that the punishments are relatively mild in the violence department is unusual but not unique, whippings happen allot in many settings but right now I can actually not think of one with mild "spanking" of adult characters in a non sexual setting. I am sure there are some but I can not think of any right now.

It's probably sufficiently rare that a lot of people won't have experience of it - and consequently, they fit the spanking within their frame of reference, which is sexual.

 

Given that many Western societies are transitioning from male privilege to female privilege...

This is very true and is a negative trend in my mind. Equality mean one gender is not to be valued above the other or get special privilege just based on the shape of one's reproductive organs.

True, but it's a difficult line to walk. Some things will naturally benefit some people more than others. Creating a world that doesn't tend to favour one gender over another is hard, especially as the impact of a given societal change isn't necessarily going to be evident overnight.

 

By dictionary definition, BDSM - indeed, homo- and bisexuality as well - is deviant. "Thing or person that deviates from normal behaviour". It is an accurate word if not, due to pejorative overtones, a good one to use.

Eh. When you're talking about 10% or more of the population (in cases of either BDSM or homosexual behavior) then that's common enough that you pretty much have to call it "normal behavior." Anything that greater then 10% of the human race as a whole does has to be considered pretty normal.

10% doing it means that 90% don't - that's a fairly significant majority. Incidentally, I have seen an openly gay member of the board admit that "deviant" is an accurate term for homosexuality - for exactly the reason I gave. I think there's a lot to be said for being deviant and proud - if you don't like the word, might as well try and reclaim it.

[Yosarian]

By dictionary definition, BDSM - indeed, homo- and bisexuality as well - is deviant. "Thing or person that deviates from normal behaviour". It is an accurate word if not, due to pejorative overtones, a good one to use.

Eh. When you're talking about 10% or more of the population (in cases of either BDSM or homosexual behavior) then that's common enough that you pretty much have to call it "normal behavior." Anything that greater then 10% of the human race as a whole does has to be considered pretty normal.

10% doing it means that 90% don't - that's a fairly significant majority. Incidentally, I have seen an openly gay member of the board admit that "deviant" is an accurate term for homosexuality - for exactly the reason I gave. I think there's a lot to be said for being deviant and proud - if you don't like the word, might as well try and reclaim it.

 

Is "writing with your left hand" deviant? How about "going to church more then once a week"? Or "Reading long novels for fun"? How about "only having sex with one person your entire life"?

 

When you get into behaviors that significant percentages of the human race do on a regular basis, calling them "deviant" just because a larger percentage of people don't is silly. By that definition, everyone is deviant; the word becomes meaningless if you apply it like that.

[TNine]

Is "writing with your left hand" deviant? How about "going to church more then once a week"? Or "Reading long novels for fun"? How about "only having sex with one person your entire life"?

 

When you get into behaviors that significant percentages of the human race do on a regular basis, calling them "deviant" just because a larger percentage of people don't is silly. By that definition, everyone is deviant; the word becomes meaningless if you apply it like that.

Semantics are silly places for arguments. Some of those things some would consider deviant, others would not be considered deviant.

 

I use deviant without any positive or negative connotations. It is not exactly my place to tell you how to have sex. But i would still consider BDSM "deviant". If something like that isn't "deviant", what is?

[Yosarian]

Is "writing with your left hand" deviant? How about "going to church more then once a week"? Or "Reading long novels for fun"? How about "only having sex with one person your entire life"?

 

When you get into behaviors that significant percentages of the human race do on a regular basis, calling them "deviant" just because a larger percentage of people don't is silly. By that definition, everyone is deviant; the word becomes meaningless if you apply it like that.

Semantics are silly places for arguments. Some of those things some would consider deviant, others would not be considered deviant.

 

It's not a semantic argument. It's a mathematical and sociological argument. Any behavior that a significant percentage of the human population does is a normal behavior by definition. It's only cultural bias that makes people think that common behaviors like BDSM or homosexuality are somehow "not normal", while less common behaviors are considered "normal".

 

By the way, 10% is a low estimate. If you include things such as spanking and blindfolds, you're probably talking about 20% or so of the population. For that matter, the book "50 shades of grey" has sold, what, 60 million copies or something? We're really not talking about fringe behaviors here, this is something that is pretty solidly in the mainstream here.

[Arath Faringal]

— adj 1. deviating, as from what is considered acceptable behaviour

— n 2. a person whose behaviour, esp sexual behaviour, deviates from what is considered to be acceptable

 

Not applicable to writing left handed. Or reading fantasy novels (with the exception of the Sword of Truth ... you deviant weirdos).

 

If the behavior makes the majority of society uncomfortable, it is considered deviant. Most people don't consider having only one partner for life to be a strange behavior. It may not be the regular practice for a lot of people now, but the idea doesn't make them uncomfortable. Being tied up, gagged, and struck with a whip for kicks? That's going to make a majority of people uncomfortable, therefore it is 'deviant'. What you personally think of the practice is irrelevant. It's the generally accepted 'societal norm' that determines what is 'deviant'.

[Yosarian]

If the behavior makes the majority of society uncomfortable, it is considered deviant.

 

(nods) Sure. Like I said, it's a matter of cultural bias, of what the cultural norms are and what people find "uncomfortable". It has nothing to do with what is "normal" or "common" human behavior, only on what you believe societal norms are. Pretending that it can then be used as a neutral, non-biased description of "what is normal" seems just false.