Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[Suttree]

Nah you are grasping Agitel. The passage couldn't be much clearer, things get worse until labor at which time you can't channel at all(funny that you are holding on to that "may" while accusing others of taking the passage too literally). That is also leaving aside the plot conveniences David brings up.

[Agitel]

Nah you are grasping Agitel. The passage couldn't be much clearer, things get worse until labor at which time you can't channel at all(funny that you are holding on to that "may" while accusing others of taking the passage too literally). That is also leaving aside the plot conveniences David brings up.

 

Truly, Suttree? This one seems clear as day. Far more so than any convictions I have on whether Cads' actions near the end of tGS are believable or not. Complaints about this strike me as grasping for just more things for people to pin on Brandon and TeamJ. I throw up my hands at this argument. This is just getting ridiculous. I think we can both agree on that, though perhaps we may disagree about who's being ridiculous, eh?

[Suttree]

Oh I wasn't even referring to the complaints really, that is one I haven't focused on myself. Just chiming in on how I read that passage. Seems pretty cut and dry the progression the mid-wife spells out.

 

As for people being ridiculous David has constantly been a staunch defender of Brandon and even he calls out the plot convenience sooooo?

[Agitel]

Oh I wasn't even referring to the complaints really, that is one I haven't focused on myself. Just chiming in on how I read that passage. Seems pretty cut and dry the progression the mid-wife spells out.

 

As for people being ridiculous David has constantly been a staunch defender of Brandon and even he calls out the plot convenience sooooo?

 

No progression is described. I don't want to cling to that may, it doesn't feel like I should need to be clinging to it. It's describing a possibility. That's what the word means. It's definition isn't in doubt. If there wasn't some variation it would have been left out. If I'm clinging, others are sweeping it under the carpet. The symptoms might get worse. Channeling during labor and giving birth is impossible. Even if there isn't some magical lockout phenomenon going on, we could surmise that would happen anyway. Channeling essentially requires a deep meditative state. Saidar especially. I don't think I need to explain how the physical and mental aspects of labor might get in the way of embracing and holding the source.

 

Okay. Get this. Imagine you could sit down with Robert Jordan and ask him "Is it impossible for the pregnancy symptoms to vary or mildly get better?"  Would he answer, "It's impossible."  ?

 

David specifically mentioned that it was plot convenient that Elayne couldn't embrace the source to do battle in tel'aran'rhiod. Of course it's plot convenient. I don't disagree with that. Brandon's guilty as charged. Robert Jordan used that often enough when it came to when Rand could embrace the source, too. I noticed that on my pre-tGS reread of the series (and also was stunned at how long it took for Rand to be able to see the weaves or seize saidin consistently).

[Suttree]

Why are you turning this into an RJ/Brandon situation? I told you I'm not overly concerned about this as a problem and hadn't really payed attention to it(was just referencing David in answer to your nitpicking claim).

 

All I'm saying is the mid wife said it will get harder to channel and that will culminate in not being able to channel at all during labor. Then what happens in the story...it gets harder for Elayne to channel! There is a clear link to the info we are given and what then happened is all I'm saying. You seem to be claiming that it doesn't apply in this situation because of the "may" which rings hollow because we see that it quite clearly does for Elayne. Am I missing something?

[Agitel]

All I'm saying is the mid wife said it will get harder to channel and that will culminate in not being able to channel at all during labor. Then what happens in the story...it gets harder for Elayne to channel! There is a clear link to the info we are given and what then happened is all I'm saying. You seem to be claiming that it doesn't apply in this situation because of the "may" which rings hollow because we see that it quite clearly does for Elayne. Am I missing something?

 

The midwife describes what happens over pregnancy, but you seem to be understanding it as a roller coaster climbing a massive hill before getting to a climax, or a mountain climb, or a steam engine picking up speed. The channeling difficulties aren't described that way.

 

-Pregnancy makes channeling more difficult.

-It may become more difficult over time, or it may not.

-Channeling during labor is impossible.

 

Elayne's pregnancy has made channeling more difficult. Check. Embracing saidar did not become more difficult over time, in fact, the symptoms mildly improved (perhaps physiologically things didn't get better but experience helped), but she's still suffering these symptoms. Check.

 

We haven't gotten to labor yet, but this isn't the summit of some gradually climbed mountain. The 'may' explains itself. I shouldn't have to be thrusting it to the forefront -- that feels as ridiculous to me as I'm sure it does to you. Pregnancies vary. It's not as if she got all better.

[Suttree]

Wait what? Embracing Saidar certainly got more difficult for her over a couple books...

[Agitel]

Wait what? Embracing Saidar certainly got more difficult for her over a couple books...

 

It'll get worse over the first few months as her body changes (and we should keep in mind that CoT and KoD didn't cover much time at all), but the midwife doesn't imply that it just builds and builds up until the end. She said that's kind of a possibility, I guess, but didn't state it as something that affects all women.

 

I should have been more clear in the previous post about what I meant.

 

Ah, just thought of the word I was looking for.

 

It's not a crescendo.

[Suttree]

Ahh ok, but here is the problem, you are using the very thing some people are apparently complaining about to support your case. Come on dude...it's been getting worse for books and then all of a sudden does an about face and starts getting better, you can't just check that off as "Embracing saidar did not become more difficult over time".

 

I can actually see how both sides can make a case here but to call them ridiculous for questioning the change in the face of info we are giving(cause really it's a fantasy book, why give the info and then have the issue immediately follow if that's not what you are trying to convey?). It feels to me like you a reaching pretty hard for a defense here honestly. Shrug no biggie...and again it's not something I would necessarily call out as a major issue in the first place.

[Agitel]

Ahh ok, but here is the problem, you are using the very thing some people are apparently complaining about to support your case. Come on dude...it's been getting worse for books and then all of a sudden does an about face and starts getting better, you can't just check that off as "Embracing saidar did not become more difficult over time".

 

I can actually see how both sides can make a case here but to call them ridiculous for questioning the change in the face of info we are giving(cause really it's a fantasy book, why give the info and then have the issue immediately follow if that's not what you are trying to convey?). It feels to me like you a reaching pretty hard for a defense here honestly. Shrug no biggie...and again it's not something I would necessarily call out as a major issue in the first place.

 

I only brought it up because I felt people were reaching pretty hard for a gripe. I'd just reread Elayne's trip to see the dragon test and was struck by the number of times through her chapters that I'd seen her complain about difficulties embracing the Source and recalled that I'd seen some people complain that suddenly, in TOWERS, Elayne was all better. Sid even said as much just a few posts up. I didn't expect to have to turn this into a big debate. 

 

Look, it did get worse for Elayne. The symptoms then mildly improved. If it is part of some sort of progression back towards no symptoms that might be a little weird. Some people were just complaining that this was pretty much continuity-breaking like the dream rings or the linking problems, which is a stretch.

[Sid]

She didn't say that in ToM, she said it in chapter 2

[Agitel]

She didn't say that in ToM, she said it in chapter 2

 

Ahah! Now to find me chapter 2. I hope that wasn't the audiobook one...

 

EDIT: Ugh, the audiobook.

 

And worse, I can't seem to move about to different times in the audio, or at least, the scroll bar for the audio, even at the end, doesn't cover the whole chapter. Stupid widgets.

[Sid]

I hate to make anyone listen to that.  Perhaps you can set a timer or something for about 47 minutes in

[Agitel]

I hate to make anyone listen to that.  Perhaps you can set a timer or something for about 47 minutes in

 

I found a way. "I've reached the point in my pregnancy where I can channel again reliably and I keep finding excuses--"

 

There we go.

[Finnssss22]

Elayne opens a letter with the Power, Avi raises an eyebrow, Elayne says she has reached a point in her pregnancy where she can channel reliably again.

 

We have been told before that it's different for every woman and we have never been told that a woman with child will for sure not be able to channel. What we have been told is that channeling while pregnant CAN be difficult at times and it MAY get worse, not that it WILL get worse. The only other thing said for sure was that she will not be able to channel while in labour or during the birthing.

CoT-14

 

IMO, this whole line of thought is reaching for straws. Just another excuse to find fault with something BS has written. Witch hunt is a word that comes to mind far too often.

Even in RL, every woman is different, as are their trimesters and trimesters in general.

[Suttree]

The actual quotes have already been provided twice in this thread Finnssss. Regardless there is no may for Elayne, we know that it was getting worse for her over a couple books and then in ToM that stopped.

 

Also I've never seen the different for every woman part(that I can recall). Care to provide that one?

[Finnssss22]

The actual quotes have already been provided twice in this thread Finnssss...

 

What I haven't seen is the different for every woman part. Care to provide that one?

 

As soon as you provide the ones that says they are all the same.

 

When Monaelle says MAY and not WILL, that does seem to imply an uncertainy does it not?

[Suttree]

Wait what? First have you even read the thread? I said quite clearly I had no problem with it. Second you clearly state...

 

We have been told before that it's different for every woman

The burden of proof is on you to provide a quote not give some flippant response because your all bitter about some perceived slight to Brandon. Go back and read my responses so you can see where I was coming from instead of building a straw man.

 

Finally you are splitting hairs over "may" when we know it was the case for Elayne. There is no "may" as we have seen over the couple of books before ToM.

 

Edit: Also give over with this crusade. It's specifically those types of posts that derail threads and throw them into bickering. There is not one regular poster here who is looking to "get Brandon" or is on some witch hunt. Seriously leave off with the hysterics and stick to the content please.

[sVieira151]

Just a thought - maybe it's something to do with being near Rand. She didn't mention when she started being able to channel reliably again, did she? It could be that it started once she went to Merrilor and not before.

[yoniy0]

I for one believe Monaelle was very clear:

“You will not have to worry about birthing sickness,” Monaelle went on, “but you will find that you have difficulty in channeling sometimes. The threads may slip away from you as though greased or fade like mist, so you will have to try again and again to make the simplest weave or hold it. This may grow worse as your pregnancy progresses, and you will not be able to channel at all while in labor or giving birth, but it will come right after the children are born. You soon will become moody, too, if that has not already started, weepy one minute and snarling the next. The father of your child will be wise to step warily and keep his distance as much as he can.”

[...]

Elayne’s mouth tightened, but what she said was “You can tell all of that with this weave, Monaelle?”

[...]

Monaelle threw back her head, laughing so hard that she had to wipe a corner of her eyes with her shawl. “I know this from bearing seven children and having three husbands, Elayne Trakand. The ability to channel shields you from the birthing sickness, but there are other prices to pay.

She's not talking about likelihood or possibility. She clearly states that Elayne will have difficulty channelling sometimes, and she states Elayne's ability to channel as the cause. Without a doubt, Monaelle knows other channelling WO, so if some manifested different symptoms Monaelle would know. Hence, I think the "everyone's pregnancy is different" argument doesn't hold.

 

It's also very clear from what Monaelle says that there isn't a "stage where one can channel reliably again". Even ignoring that--and simply assuming that it's better sometimes--saying that it "might get worse" doesn't imply that it may also get better; in fact, since Monaelle refrained from mentioning anything similar, I would say it makes it less likely, not more. On top of all of that, I think we're only debating the issue because it makes it that much more dubious that Elayne was able to improve upon the Dream ter'angreal. When viewed in this context, plot-convenience becomes perhaps too visible.

[Finnssss22]

Wait what? First have you even read the thread? I said quite clearly I had no problem with it. Second you clearly state...

 

We have been told before that it's different for every woman

The burden of proof is on you to provide a quote not give some flippant response because your all bitter about some perceived slight to Brandon. Go back and read my responses so you can see where I was coming from instead of building a straw man.

 

Finally you are splitting hairs over "may" when we know it was the case for Elayne. There is no "may" as we have seen over the couple of books before ToM.

 

Edit: Also give over with this nonsensical Brandon crusade. It's specifically those types of posts that derail threads and throw them into bickering. There is not one regular poster here who is looking to "get Brandon" or is on some witch hunt. Seriously leave off with the hysterics and stick to the content please.

 

First off, I'm not bitter about BS, unlike some, on 9/16/07, I accepted that the series was never going to be finished to the level that RJ would have finished it. If I'm bitter about anything, it's how anyone who even attempts to defend BS even just loosely is cited for splitting hairs when most of the time that is exactly what is being done to make the critism in the first place.

 

The other thing that annoys me is that these critiques are being backed up by "evidence" based on their opinion of how that evidence should be construed. And when one doesn't agree with their interprtation of that evidence, one is called wrong or told they are being ridiculous heh.

 

With the Cads thing, I do find that she is "off" a bit but I don't find her ruined or grossly OOC either.

For me, not only has her latest attempt to get through to Rand failed and that she finds out Rand is so far gone that he almost killed Tam, Tam also reveals that he told Rand that is was Cads that sent him. She feels she may have just lost Rand completely now. She's already been exiled.

I have little trouble believing that she temporalily loses it a bit there when Tam goes at her.

She basically just got slapped in the face 4 times in 10 seconds and then has someone going at her in the 11th second.

 

With the pregnancy thing, in RL, every woman is different, every trimester is different. Hell, most women experience things differently for each pregnancy for pete's sake. Why under the light would it be any different for a woman that can channel?

If RJ had have written this, it wouldn't even be a topic. Maybe it's in the notes, I don't know but just because BS wrote it, doesn't make it wrong and certainly not something to dwell on.

 

Like if one wants to critique BS's prose or how he writes the characters compared to RJ, I not only understand it but I also see it.

The difference is that it doesn't bother me or many others as greatly as it does some.

Either way, I'm not going to critique it all to the point where it ruins the ending for me. ESPECIALLY when we haven't even read the freaking ending yet!

 

All I know is that I'm going into this last book looking forward to enjoying the ending. I'm not going into it looking for mistakes. I can find the "mistakes" later. I'm going to god damned well enjoy the ****ing ending to a series I have been reading for more than 20 years FIRST!

[Agitel]

I for one believe Monaelle was very clear:

“You will not have to worry about birthing sickness,” Monaelle went on, “but you will find that you have difficulty in channeling sometimes. The threads may slip away from you as though greased or fade like mist, so you will have to try again and again to make the simplest weave or hold it. This may grow worse as your pregnancy progresses, and you will not be able to channel at all while in labor or giving birth, but it will come right after the children are born. You soon will become moody, too, if that has not already started, weepy one minute and snarling the next. The father of your child will be wise to step warily and keep his distance as much as he can.”

[...]

Elayne’s mouth tightened, but what she said was “You can tell all of that with this weave, Monaelle?”

[...]

Monaelle threw back her head, laughing so hard that she had to wipe a corner of her eyes with her shawl. “I know this from bearing seven children and having three husbands, Elayne Trakand. The ability to channel shields you from the birthing sickness, but there are other prices to pay.

She's not talking about likelihood or possibility. She clearly states that Elayne will have difficulty channelling sometimes, and she states Elayne's ability to channel as the cause. Without a doubt, Monaelle knows other channelling WO, so if some manifested different symptoms Monaelle would know. Hence, I think the "everyone's pregnancy is different" argument doesn't hold.

 

It's also very clear from what Monaelle says that there isn't a "stage where one can channel reliably again". Even ignoring that--and simply assuming that it's better sometimes--saying that it "might get worse" doesn't imply that it may also get better; in fact, since Monaelle refrained from mentioning anything similar, I would say it makes it less likely, not more. On top of all of that, I think we're only debating the issue because it makes it that much more dubious that Elayne was able to improve upon the Dream ter'angreal. When viewed in this context, plot-convenience becomes perhaps too visible.

 

Getting better is one thing, but embracing the Source isn't impossible for her. She finds the foxhead medallion to be a much more complicated item than the dream ter'angreal, and it's been some time since her last attempt at making those, so it's possible she could have improved on it. I'm not saying that Jordan would have had her manage to do it -- this came out as a bandage to a mistake, after all -- but it seems feasible that she could progress in ability and approach it from a 'new angle.' Such progress wouldn't be out-of-character for the series, which has had the wondergirls and Rand figure out things quite intuitively in the past. 

 

Severity of symptoms let alone their manifestation for pregnancies, let alone them manifesting in the first place, do vary in real life. A lot. I'd be interested in asking if Jordan had any plans for Elayne channeling again a bit later into her pregnancy or if that was Brandon's decision.

[Agitel]

The actual quotes have already been provided twice in this thread Finnssss. Regardless there is no may for Elayne, we know that it was getting worse for her over a couple books and then in ToM that stopped.

 

Also I've never seen the different for every woman part(that I can recall). Care to provide that one?

 

I'm not saying she should have gotten all the way better, Sutt, but you're speaking as if the symptoms getting worse for the first few months signifies a trend. I disagree. I think it's implied that she'll be having symptoms throughout the pregnancy by the first thing Monaelle says, but I don't like the 'trend' angle.

 

Edit: Oops, sorry for the double post. I meant to insert this into my previous one, but I screwed up. I can't copy and paste the quote formatting like I think I should be able to. I'm still figuring that out. =/

 

Edit 2: I think if RJ could see this particular argument he'd grab us all by the ears and clonk our heads together and tell us to get out more. 

[Vambram]

Like if one wants to critique BS's prose or how he writes the characters compared to RJ, I not only understand it but I also see it.

The difference is that it doesn't bother me or many others as greatly as it does some.

Either way, I'm not going to critique it all to the point where it ruins the ending for me. ESPECIALLY when we haven't even read the freaking ending yet!

 

All I know is that I'm going into this last book looking forward to enjoying the ending. I'm not going into it looking for mistakes. I can find the "mistakes" later. I'm going to god damned well enjoy the ****ing ending to a series I have been reading for more than 20 years FIRST!

 

 

This ^

 

 

+1000

[Suttree]

Either way, I'm not going to critique it all to the point where it ruins the ending for me. ESPECIALLY when we haven't even read the freaking ending yet!

 

All I know is that I'm going into this last book looking forward to enjoying the ending. I'm not going into it looking for mistakes. I can find the "mistakes" later. I'm going to god damned well enjoy the ****ing ending to a series I have been reading for more than 20 years FIRST!

See this I find very strange. First why would critiquing a work of art mean that the ending will be ruined? If Brandon steps up to the plate and hits a home run with this last book you will find many of us that have studied this his closely absolutely ecstatic. In fact if the numerous mistakes from ToM don't happen this time around since the Team acknowledged them/asked for more time to get it "right" and the prose is polished to the point where it's no longer uneven/jarring I would venture to guess that many of the complaints will fade away.

 

What I will never do however is turn a blind eye to the problems because I am trying to force myself to  "god damned well enjoy the ****ing ending to a series I have been reading for more than 20 years FIRST!". How could anyone possibly say that until they have actually read the book? After all as you said yourself "we haven't even read the freaking ending yet!" As always I will give an honest assessment of what I am reading, it does Brandon a huge disservice to ignore the problems and I feel it actually hampered his growth as an author when this was done after TGS. It's essentially saying "well I don't think he is capable of doing better so I'm just going to enjoy it, where lucky to get the ending after all."

 

I've said this a number of times but look Team Jordan admitted the problems with ToM, they changed Brandon's writing process to add more "polish" to his prose and they asked for more time because they have to get AMoL "right". I have faith in their work and I have faith in Brandon as an author. Peter has gone on record here saying how hard Brandon has worked on this last book and how proud of the result he is.  I think we do have a home run coming our way...after making a point to convey all those changes post the ToM mess and going on record about the amount of effort Brandon put in it has to be awesome. I'm putting my trust in Team Jordan.