Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[skalors3]

@Suttree if you read the post immediately following that one I am pointing out the problem with that logic. That was not having her perspective in the scene with Tam. That is why she "had a reputation for....." things because others viewed her differently, you know, not having insight into her mind.

 

Also, what facts do I ignore?

[Suttree]

Time and time again we see her use various methods to achieve her goals based on a a careful study of who she is dealing with. Additionally she almost invariably treats people solely based on their actions. Those are the facts, there is zero misintepretation and I suggest you read both Linda's and Lucker's examinations of the character if you haven't already. Would you like me to link them?

[The Fisher King]

Yeah, like I said, for me, Pre-TGS, there are clear motivations and subtleties at work when Cadsuane finds herself in a ... situation. In WH the only reason she ''breaks'' Aleis is to free TDR. Its not personal or petty or temper. In chapter 23 of COT. when Elza stands in her way,  we see her mentally and calmly go through the entire situation one fact at a time while attempting to formulate a course of action. In Winter's Heart, she ONLY snaps AFTER having sat there and taken it and taken it from the Windfinder - and only after the WF invaded her personal space and touched her without permission. And then she only ''threatened'' those dire actions - she didn't physically do them.THAT is how I view Cadsuane.

 

... But...in TGS, there was no precedent, co clear build up...just BOOM.

 

 

Fish

[Finnssss22]

So what's the whole point of all this debate about Cads anyway?

[Drakkon]

So what's the whole point of all this debate about Cads anyway?

It another example of what people think Brandon did wrong.  And if RJ had written it, how much more awesome that scene would have been.

[Suttree]

So what's the whole point of all this debate about Cads anyway?

It another example of what people think Brandon did wrong.  And if RJ had written it, how much more awesome that scene would have been.

 And taking place in the proper thread to discuss the pros/cons of Brandon's work no less. Imagine that...things might actually be turning around and getting back to normal around here.

[Finnssss22]

So what's the whole point of all this debate about Cads anyway?

It another example of what people think Brandon did wrong.  And if RJ had written it, how much more awesome that scene would have been.

 

So what about what BS did right and IMO even better than RJ, like the writting of Perrin and Egwene.

 

This argument over Cad's maybe acting a little out of character (yes, I said a little because I also find it at least plausable that she "lost it" for a second or two at that particular moment) reminds me a lot of the arguments about Talmanes being out of character because he never smiled or laughed before under RJ, which is complete bull.

 

I guess I accept that Mat was one of RJ's best written characters and BS doesn't have the same strength with him.

I also accept that Cads is a tough character to write. If she was as cut and dry as some are presenting here, there would be no possible way that even the slightest counter argument would exist.

At the same time, Perrin and Egwene were two of RJ's worst written characters and are two of BS's strongest.

 

 

I think what I see is BS's best writting came when he had less material to work with and was able to create the scenes himself to get where he needed to go instead of having to re-create what was more strictly laid out by RJ.

[The Fisher King]

Did we "think" Sulin or Tam were in two places at once? Did we think that Mat had never, EVER used "bloody ashes" before? Did we "think" up those interviews where Brandon publicly admitted he wrote Mat poorly? Did we THINK up those those countless typos in TOM? Did we THINK up that mistake in Chapter 2 of AMOL concerning who can initiate what between men and women. Did we "think" up the interviews where Team Jordan admits that TOM was a "rushed product."???

 

I know what I "think" about your post, but because I like posting here I will *only* "think" it. ;-)

 

 

Fish

[Drakkon]

I think what I see is BS's best writting came when he had less material to work with and was able to create the scenes himself to get where he needed to go instead of having to re-create what was more strictly laid out by RJ.

While I do not know if this is true or not, I would say it makes since.  He can let the character flow instead of having to force the character.

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[Finnssss22]

Really Fish?

I try and point out some of the good instead of just focusing on the bad and that's your response?

Awesome!!!

[Suttree]

This argument over Cad's maybe acting a little out of character (yes, I said a little because I also find it at least plausable that she "lost it" for a second or two at that particular moment) reminds me a lot of the arguments about Talmanes being out of character because he never smiled or laughed before under RJ, which is complete bull.

Have people really said that about Talmanes? As I recall the issues have been with how forced and over the top he is. All the subtlety(which is what made his character) disappeared.

 

Also Finnsss, just to clarify before I dive in. Are you saying that Brandon not only did a good job with Perrin and Egwene(totally on board with that) but also wrote them better than RJ did?!

[Finnssss22]

This argument over Cad's maybe acting a little out of character (yes, I said a little because I also find it at least plausable that she "lost it" for a second or two at that particular moment) reminds me a lot of the arguments about Talmanes being out of character because he never smiled or laughed before under RJ, which is complete bull.

Have people really said that about Talmanes? As I recall the issues have been with how forced and over the top he is. All the subtlety(which is what made his character) disappeared.

 

Also Finnsss, just to clarify before I dive in. Are you saying that Brandon not only did a good job with Perrin and Egwene(totally on board with that) but also wrote them better than RJ did?!

 

Then the way RJ had been writting them both since aCoS, yes.

[The Fisher King]

Finnssss! My fault! My post was NOT responding to YOU!

 

 

Fish

[Suttree]

This argument over Cad's maybe acting a little out of character (yes, I said a little because I also find it at least plausable that she "lost it" for a second or two at that particular moment) reminds me a lot of the arguments about Talmanes being out of character because he never smiled or laughed before under RJ, which is complete bull.

Have people really said that about Talmanes? As I recall the issues have been with how forced and over the top he is. All the subtlety(which is what made his character) disappeared.

 

Also Finnsss, just to clarify before I dive in. Are you saying that Brandon not only did a good job with Perrin and Egwene(totally on board with that) but also wrote them better than RJ did?!

 

Then the way RJ had been writting them both since aCoS, yes.

With the actual prose, characterization, dialog and overall writing quality or what was going on with their plotlines? Again I can see an argument for the second but the first...that would be tough for me to swallow.

[Finnssss22]

Finnssss! My fault! My post was NOT responding to YOU!

 

 

Fish

 

I was kinda wondering, had to check to make sure it was indeed you posting and not Mark D for a second

[The Fisher King]

I was replying to the first post on this page at the top.

 

 

Fish

[Finnssss22]

This argument over Cad's maybe acting a little out of character (yes, I said a little because I also find it at least plausable that she "lost it" for a second or two at that particular moment) reminds me a lot of the arguments about Talmanes being out of character because he never smiled or laughed before under RJ, which is complete bull.

Have people really said that about Talmanes? As I recall the issues have been with how forced and over the top he is. All the subtlety(which is what made his character) disappeared.

 

Also Finnsss, just to clarify before I dive in. Are you saying that Brandon not only did a good job with Perrin and Egwene(totally on board with that) but also wrote them better than RJ did?!

 

Then the way RJ had been writting them both since aCoS, yes.

With the actual prose, characterization, dialog and overall writing quality or what was going on with their plotlines? Again I can see an argument for the second but the first...that would be tough for me to swallow.

 

 

Everything. Their PoV's IMO felt like forced filler for the better part of 3 books.

There was some redemption for each in KoD but not nearly enough and no where near the level they got in tGS (Egwene) and ToM (Perrin).

 

I'm just saying that I feel that for every character that BS was "off" on, he was "on" or improved upon some others.

With most being pretty equal/kept as is between authors.

[Suttree]

Care to post some portions from each author to make your case? I'm having a very tough time wrapping my head around that, especially given the large jags in quality/unpolished sections in those works. To be clear there are things Brandon does better than Jordan as a writer. To say that Brandon writes Jordan's own characters better however? Nahhh...I almost feel like your going against the grain just for the sake of it.

 

Also given how many times we loop back on the same ground with Perrin under Brandon(although he was written well for the most part) the forced filler example doesn't hold much wait.

 

Edit: Egwene as well for that matter, although to a lesser degree. The two dinner scenes instead of one is an example with her...

[Finnssss22]

Nope I'm not going into it any more. I doubt I will even post or even browse in this thread again. Kinda sick of the negative focus it always comes back to while pretending to be "reasonable" or "open minded".

I find very, very few from either side in this debate to be such.

 

After countless re-reads I can't just readily explain how those characters and their scenes make me feel in the middle of the series.

All I know is that I did/do not find them enjoyable plotwise or character-wise. The writting itself is more polished, that I can agree with but crap can smell like roses and still be crap.

And I'm not going to follow the norm here and attack one author to make the other look better.

 

As far as the "weight" of what I call filler...I saw your arguments for some of what you called "filler" in tGS and ToM. I disagreed with most of then and that hasn't changed.

So agreeing to disagree on what's filler is prolly best at this point

 

 

Anyway,

Cheers

Finn

[The Fisher King]

Let us remember that it is now documented : The vast majority of Egwene in TGS and TOM was written by Jordan.

For what it is worth.

 

 

Fish

[Finnssss22]

Let us remember that it is now documented : The vast majority of Egwene in TGA.TOM was written by Jordan. For what it is worth. Fish

 

And supposedly the majority of Mat in ToM was also written by RJ, while the tGS Mat was mostly BS. So where does that leave us?

 

 

On that note I really am out of this.

[Suttree]

Nope I'm not going into it any more. I doubt I will even post or even browse in this thread again. Kinda sick of the negative focus it always comes back to while pretending to be "reasonable" or "open minded".

I find very, very few from either side in this debate to be such.

Ahh, that's dissapointing. I wouldn't expect you to make a controversial statement like that followed by a cut and run. Was hoping to get a better understanding of where you were coming from and why you thought Brandon was better from a technical perspective as you claimed above. In terms of filler, why bring up what I said before in old threads? Just address my two examples raised in the last post.

 

Also I hope that isn't aimed at me Finnnssss. As you should well know I have long praised the good things Brandon did and defended him strongly after TGS and during the request for "extra time" needed for AMoL. Just as after doing a detailed literary analysis(which is what I have my degree in) I have given an honest assessment of my thoughts. Further you do many here a disservice with that claim, out of the long time posters(Barid, Yoniy0, myself etc) everyone has been reasoned and rational. I can honestly count on one hand the people who have been unfair to Brandon here at DM, the people attacking critique? Not so much...

 

 

And supposedly the majority of Mat in ToM was also written by RJ, while the tGS Mat was mostly BS. So where does that leave us?

 

With the improved Mat in portions of ToM, especially during the ToG sequence? TGS Mat is perhaps the most condemned thing Brandon has done.

[fionwe1987]

So what's the whole point of all this debate about Cads anyway?

It another example of what people think Brandon did wrong.  And if RJ had written it, how much more awesome that scene would have been.

 

So what about what BS did right and IMO even better than RJ, like the writting of Perrin and Egwene.

 

This argument over Cad's maybe acting a little out of character (yes, I said a little because I also find it at least plausable that she "lost it" for a second or two at that particular moment) reminds me a lot of the arguments about Talmanes being out of character because he never smiled or laughed before under RJ, which is complete bull.

 

I guess I accept that Mat was one of RJ's best written characters and BS doesn't have the same strength with him.

I also accept that Cads is a tough character to write. If she was as cut and dry as some are presenting here, there would be no possible way that even the slightest counter argument would exist.

At the same time, Perrin and Egwene were two of RJ's worst written characters and are two of BS's strongest.

 

 

I think what I see is BS's best writting came when he had less material to work with and was able to create the scenes himself to get where he needed to go instead of having to re-create what was more strictly laid out by RJ.

You're kidding me with the Egwene thing, right? All the good Bradon did with writing her in tGS, he totally destroyed in ToM.

 

As for her storyline, he did a terrible job with characters around her, making them less of their usual selves, except perhaps Siuan. 

 

Brandon's problem is that he cannot write two characters in conflict (however mild) in one scene without putting one of them down. This is most egregious around Egwene. 

[The Fisher King]

fionwe - Egwene was almost exclusively written by Jordan in TGS.

[fionwe1987]

Nope. Apparently Brandon has said that RJ intended for the first dinner Egwene had with Elaida to directly lead to her imprisonment. We would probably have got some version of her scenes in tGS via both flashbacks as well as somewhat different meetings in the dungeon, but a bulk of her scenes between the two dinners in tGS was all Brandon.