Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[capuga]

Hey Mark, first off let me say it's good to see you around. As you know we agreed on things more often than not over the years and I have always enjoyed your contributions. Sorry that you feel the way you do concerning the above and to be honest coming from you it will make me be a bit more self aware when posting. Having said that if a thread is about BS's work are we not supposed to present the viewpoints we have reached after a very careful study?

 

Firstly, thank you. And I know I've mentioned in other threads that I respect your posts (and Luckers') even when I disagree with them. Which is why is stands out to me when I feel that you two are often at the forefront of this criticism. And, again, it's not that I don't believe you have valid points (although I tend to think the criticisms are a bit overblown). Nor do I feel that you express them poorly or rudely. It's just that it's constant. And in many threads. And that it seems like there's an effort to drown out those appreciating Brandon's work by pointing out that not only do you disagree with their opinion, but that their opinion is actually ill informed because the writing is, in fact, not good. And the reason I mentioned you guys specifically is just because, as I said, it stands out when two of the sites most reasonable and respected posters are the ones in the lead.

 

I know that part of the reason you often defend Egwene, for example, is that you feel the hatred for her tends to get too many posts and gets overblown and overwhelming. And that makes it unpleasant to read threads that discuss her. Even when many of the things that people dislike about Egwene are well thought out and reasonably written. I realized that I was one of those posting too much dislike of Egwene and I've avoided going on any "rants" about her for a long time now. Because I realized that I'd said my piece and anything else was just contributing to the threads getting derailed and unpleasant.

 

And I find that these threads regarding Brandon have crossed into the same territory that Egwene threads end up in.

 

Except for the fact that it wasn't only board complaints. Luckers was specifically requested to submit a critique. In addtion there has been a well documented pattern of BS insulating himself and using the praise of casual fans as proof of getting things "right". This is highlighted by his claims of figuring out Mat's character and yet the ch. 11 release still containing all of the elements that he got wrong in the first place.

 

That YOU feel he got wrong. Not that I disagree that Mat could be improved. But this feels to me that you expect him to fix "mistakes" that are, after all, just your opinion. "Mistakes" that Team Jordan should have a large hand in helping notice and correct.

[MarkDiLillo]

Anyway, things are what they are. I am curious to know why you think I'm idealistic in saying that if the time offered was not ok that they should have gotten another writer. If you're over the conversation, I'm fine with that, too.

 

To be honest, that was a quip... a valid one, mind--despite the play made about Brandon being selected from a list, they needed an American or Canadian Tor based writer of enough experience to take on the Wheel but not enough success to refuse it who had also read the Wheel of Time. The short list was... short.

 

But the real reason behind my reaction to your comment is that it wasn't realistic in any sense. I'll be honest though, the professional interaction you think occurred... I wish that had occurred, on all fronts.

So, what you're saying is that Brandon was the best of what's left?

 

I'm pretty sure they picked the best available guy from their pool in their judgement. Unfortunately, hindsight is always 20/20.

[thisguy]

Anyway, things are what they are. I am curious to know why you think I'm idealistic in saying that if the time offered was not ok that they should have gotten another writer. If you're over the conversation, I'm fine with that, too.

 

To be honest, that was a quip... a valid one, mind--despite the play made about Brandon being selected from a list, they needed an American or Canadian Tor based writer of enough experience to take on the Wheel but not enough success to refuse it who had also read the Wheel of Time. The short list was... short.

 

But the real reason behind my reaction to your comment is that it wasn't realistic in any sense. I'll be honest though, the professional interaction you think occurred... I wish that had occurred, on all fronts.

So, what you're saying is that Brandon was the best of what's left?

 

I'm pretty sure they picked the best available guy from their pool in their judgement. Unfortunately, hindsight is always 20/20.

Well, there's no way to know if anybody else would have done a better job overall. Personally, I think people would have been upset over the product no matter what. That's not to say that there aren't real problems, just to say that that's my guess for how things would have worked out.

I was surprised and happy when I found out that they had found someone to write the rest of the story.

[Yamahako]

Oh geez, the fact that Sanderson wanted Perrin to go to the Way of the Leaf at any point in time right there says EVERYTHING. =/

 

Perrin NEVER at any point in the story gave any indication that he wanted to go that route. In fact, he constantly looked down at it. He felt protective of the people there and envied their happiness, but he looked down at them as pathetic imo. Not only that, but the whole "wolf" thing pretty strongly conflicts with that. So strongly so that it makes the entire suggestion completely asinine.

 

Ungh...the fact that BS wanted that to happen and Harriet had to shut him down on it explains everything in my mind.

 

I would like to argue this point. There's a fairly slow build up to this conclusion, taking the opposite path of that of the Aiel. Early on in the books, he is disdainful of the way the Tinkers live, but you can see the same struggle within him. First its the struggle with loving or hating killing. Then its the struggle with an Ax made only for killing vs. the Hammer which can be used to create (you can see the similarity in the way the Aiel won't use swords because they serve no other purpose than killing). He has problems with killing, and he struggles internally with his own battle rage. You can easily see the arc that could lead him to the way of the leaf. It's been a slow build since book 1. I'm not one to say what the original intention was, but I've had the strong impression while reading the series that would occur (now knowing that it isn't going to is kind of a let down).

 

Brandon Sanderson for sure has a different writing style than Robert Jordan. I really liked his books the first time I read through them. I hate to admit that they don't hold up as well on re-reads as Jordan's work. Partly, that has to be the familiarity with the subject. It's a lot more difficult to write on multiple levels, with degrees of foreshadowing and subtlety when you aren't intimately familiar with the tone and mood you are trying to achieve in addition to the plot. No one could have done a perfect job, regardless of the amount of time spent on the novels. There are inconsistencies and plot issues - those I feel fall mostly on the part of the editors, as this is something that should have been caught. Personally, I think that if the goal was giving the books proper justice, the first book should have taken 5 or 6 years to come out. I don't know how anyone could have gone through all the notes, and had the conversations with team Jordan necessary to be able to write the books correctly in less time. The other 2 might have been able to come out faster, but I (without having any personal knowledge) feel that the books were written like taking off a band-aid. Nothing was going to be as good as Jordan could have done, so might as well do it quick and get the pain over with. In that respect I feel like Brandon Sanderson has done a good job. I'd like to see Omnibus editions of the books some day that detail which scenes were his, and which were Jordan's rewritten in Sanderson's style for curiosities sake. But all in all, I've been happy with the plot gratification, and the progression of the story. I'd probably be happier if Robert Jordan had finished it (and certainly be happier if he were still with us), but I'm grateful that its getting done.

 

That being said, I find Brandon Sanderson's other work phenomenal. The Way of Kings is one of my favorite books of all time, but the style is very different. I think this is why I give him more slack, even though I see the discrepancies, because I think he's an amazingly skilled writer. How hard must it be to write in a different style a work that someone else has had decades to ponder and think on in such a short time with the notes yes, but no ability to talk with the creator? Immensely difficult. Could a better job have been done, certainly. Could it have been done in less than a decade? I personally don't think so, and I don't think we'd have gotten the books at all if a writer had to give up 10 years to finishing this masterpiece.

[MarkDiLillo]

That YOU feel he got wrong. Not that I disagree that Mat could be improved. But this feels to me that you expect him to fix "mistakes" that are, after all, just your opinion. "Mistakes" that Team Jordan should have a large hand in helping notice and correct.

 

A lot of the problems are not subjective. For example, the tone of Mat is subjective and some people may feel like he got it right. In my mind, that is less important than the actual content issues that you uncover as you go through the details to figure out why the tone is incorrect. You will find phrases that have been used before that he often repeats yet repeats them incorrectly when Sanderson writes Mat. You will find his thought process incorrectly refers to some event or refers to a process or event as a question that he already had figured out. It is the small things like that which all add up. These are not subjective - many of them are objective mistakes and errors in the writing.

[thisguy]

Oh geez, the fact that Sanderson wanted Perrin to go to the Way of the Leaf at any point in time right there says EVERYTHING. =/

 

Perrin NEVER at any point in the story gave any indication that he wanted to go that route. In fact, he constantly looked down at it. He felt protective of the people there and envied their happiness, but he looked down at them as pathetic imo. Not only that, but the whole "wolf" thing pretty strongly conflicts with that. So strongly so that it makes the entire suggestion completely asinine.

 

Ungh...the fact that BS wanted that to happen and Harriet had to shut him down on it explains everything in my mind.

 

I would like to argue this point. There's a fairly slow build up to this conclusion, taking the opposite path of that of the Aiel. Early on in the books, he is disdainful of the way the Tinkers live, but you can see the same struggle within him. First its the struggle with loving or hating killing. Then its the struggle with an Ax made only for killing vs. the Hammer which can be used to create (you can see the similarity in the way the Aiel won't use swords because they serve no other purpose than killing). He has problems with killing, and he struggles internally with his own battle rage. You can easily see the arc that could lead him to the way of the leaf. It's been a slow build since book 1. I'm not one to say what the original intention was, but I've had the strong impression while reading the series that would occur (now knowing that it isn't going to is kind of a let down).

 

Brandon Sanderson for sure has a different writing style than Robert Jordan. I really liked his books the first time I read through them. I hate to admit that they don't hold up as well on re-reads as Jordan's work. Partly, that has to be the familiarity with the subject. It's a lot more difficult to write on multiple levels, with degrees of foreshadowing and subtlety when you aren't intimately familiar with the tone and mood you are trying to achieve in addition to the plot. No one could have done a perfect job, regardless of the amount of time spent on the novels. There are inconsistencies and plot issues - those I feel fall mostly on the part of the editors, as this is something that should have been caught. Personally, I think that if the goal was giving the books proper justice, the first book should have taken 5 or 6 years to come out. I don't know how anyone could have gone through all the notes, and had the conversations with team Jordan necessary to be able to write the books correctly in less time. The other 2 might have been able to come out faster, but I (without having any personal knowledge) feel that the books were written like taking off a band-aid. Nothing was going to be as good as Jordan could have done, so might as well do it quick and get the pain over with. In that respect I feel like Brandon Sanderson has done a good job. I'd like to see Omnibus editions of the books some day that detail which scenes were his, and which were Jordan's rewritten in Sanderson's style for curiosities sake. But all in all, I've been happy with the plot gratification, and the progression of the story. I'd probably be happier if Robert Jordan had finished it (and certainly be happier if he were still with us), but I'm grateful that its getting done.

 

That being said, I find Brandon Sanderson's other work phenomenal. The Way of Kings is one of my favorite books of all time, but the style is very different. I think this is why I give him more slack, even though I see the discrepancies, because I think he's an amazingly skilled writer. How hard must it be to write in a different style a work that someone else has had decades to ponder and think on in such a short time with the notes yes, but no ability to talk with the creator? Immensely difficult. Could a better job have been done, certainly. Could it have been done in less than a decade? I personally don't think so, and I don't think we'd have gotten the books at all if a writer had to give up 10 years to finishing this masterpiece.

 

I felt the same way about Perrin and said much the same when the other person posted about the Leaf thing. I thought that was exactly the reason why RJ had him find the Tinkers after finding Elyas. They were the two parts of him warring inside. His character has more involvement with the Tinkers than anybody else. And, the Seeker even says there was a chance for him to go their way but it's lost during the defense of the 2 rivers.

[Luckers]

Anyway, things are what they are. I am curious to know why you think I'm idealistic in saying that if the time offered was not ok that they should have gotten another writer. If you're over the conversation, I'm fine with that, too.

 

To be honest, that was a quip... a valid one, mind--despite the play made about Brandon being selected from a list, they needed an American or Canadian Tor based writer of enough experience to take on the Wheel but not enough success to refuse it who had also read the Wheel of Time. The short list was... short.

 

But the real reason behind my reaction to your comment is that it wasn't realistic in any sense. I'll be honest though, the professional interaction you think occurred... I wish that had occurred, on all fronts.

So, what you're saying is that Brandon was the best of what's left?

 

Yes, I'm relatively certain he is. The possibility is there of course, that they chose the more malleable writer on that list, but Brandon's gone against Team Jordan quite hard in some instances, so... yes, I believe so.

 

To be honest, that was a quip... a valid one, mind--despite the play made about Brandon being selected from a list, they needed an American or Canadian Tor based writer of enough experience to take on the Wheel but not enough success to refuse it who had also read the Wheel of Time. The short list was... short.

 

Hey Luckers(or anyone who might have some input), do you know if J.V. Jones was ever considered? Not sure if she read WoT and maybe unrealistic with her own troubles getting books out but I think it could have been an interesting choice purely from a writing perspective. Similar style to RJ with great detail.

 

I don't know any of the other names considered, other than that Stephen Donaldson was not considered. I suspect J.V. Jones was by far too entrenched in her own work.

 

Personally, I think people would have been upset over the product no matter what. That's not to say that there aren't real problems, just to say that that's my guess for how things would have worked out.

 

Perhaps. I think if you'd been around during tGS and TofM you'd hold a different opinion--the Fandom were so open to Brandon doing well, they clung desperately to any achievement. It literally took being disapointed again, and again, and again, and again to break that spirit of support.

 

But again, perhaps.

[MarkDiLillo]

Oh geez, the fact that Sanderson wanted Perrin to go to the Way of the Leaf at any point in time right there says EVERYTHING. =/

 

Perrin NEVER at any point in the story gave any indication that he wanted to go that route. In fact, he constantly looked down at it. He felt protective of the people there and envied their happiness, but he looked down at them as pathetic imo. Not only that, but the whole "wolf" thing pretty strongly conflicts with that. So strongly so that it makes the entire suggestion completely asinine.

 

Ungh...the fact that BS wanted that to happen and Harriet had to shut him down on it explains everything in my mind.

 

I would like to argue this point. There's a fairly slow build up to this conclusion, taking the opposite path of that of the Aiel. Early on in the books, he is disdainful of the way the Tinkers live, but you can see the same struggle within him. First its the struggle with loving or hating killing. Then its the struggle with an Ax made only for killing vs. the Hammer which can be used to create (you can see the similarity in the way the Aiel won't use swords because they serve no other purpose than killing). He has problems with killing, and he struggles internally with his own battle rage. You can easily see the arc that could lead him to the way of the leaf. It's been a slow build since book 1. I'm not one to say what the original intention was, but I've had the strong impression while reading the series that would occur (now knowing that it isn't going to is kind of a let down).

 

Brandon Sanderson for sure has a different writing style than Robert Jordan. I really liked his books the first time I read through them. I hate to admit that they don't hold up as well on re-reads as Jordan's work. Partly, that has to be the familiarity with the subject. It's a lot more difficult to write on multiple levels, with degrees of foreshadowing and subtlety when you aren't intimately familiar with the tone and mood you are trying to achieve in addition to the plot. No one could have done a perfect job, regardless of the amount of time spent on the novels. There are inconsistencies and plot issues - those I feel fall mostly on the part of the editors, as this is something that should have been caught. Personally, I think that if the goal was giving the books proper justice, the first book should have taken 5 or 6 years to come out. I don't know how anyone could have gone through all the notes, and had the conversations with team Jordan necessary to be able to write the books correctly in less time. The other 2 might have been able to come out faster, but I (without having any personal knowledge) feel that the books were written like taking off a band-aid. Nothing was going to be as good as Jordan could have done, so might as well do it quick and get the pain over with. In that respect I feel like Brandon Sanderson has done a good job. I'd like to see Omnibus editions of the books some day that detail which scenes were his, and which were Jordan's rewritten in Sanderson's style for curiosities sake. But all in all, I've been happy with the plot gratification, and the progression of the story. I'd probably be happier if Robert Jordan had finished it (and certainly be happier if he were still with us), but I'm grateful that its getting done.

 

That being said, I find Brandon Sanderson's other work phenomenal. The Way of Kings is one of my favorite books of all time, but the style is very different. I think this is why I give him more slack, even though I see the discrepancies, because I think he's an amazingly skilled writer. How hard must it be to write in a different style a work that someone else has had decades to ponder and think on in such a short time with the notes yes, but no ability to talk with the creator? Immensely difficult. Could a better job have been done, certainly. Could it have been done in less than a decade? I personally don't think so, and I don't think we'd have gotten the books at all if a writer had to give up 10 years to finishing this masterpiece.

 

I agree with most of what you said. To do these books right, it should have taken several years longer for the first one to come out. The entire process needed to be re-evaluated. Team Jordan should have chosen an author capable of writing the series regardless of whether or not he had read the series before. Then, he could have read the entire series and gone over it piece by piece with Team Jordan and the notes staff. He then could have spent a coniserable amount of time writing the rest of the story while maticulously going over the details and making multiple edits with Team Jordan to ensure that it was done properly.

 

What we got was hiring a fan to basically write fan fic for us with original outline in place.

 

As for the Perrin thing...I agree that there was some conflict in the beginning but I felt like that had firmly been decided against as the books went on. He had a struggle at first, but that struggle defined him and the type of leader he grew into. It was never a question of whether or not he was actually going to turn to the WotL...it was all about him taking that experience in to forge him into the leader he became. Also, it was a lot about showing us as readers what type of person Perrin was. We got to see just how gentle hearted he really was yet the disdain also showed he had some steel to his backbone.

[Suttree]

Well, I'm still a book away from BS's work. However, I don't see the big deal about this one line. And, considering the books seem to have a lot of people with a lot of question, maybe it's not a big deal to just say instead of imply; he's Chosen.

 

Well yeah, if it was just that one line it wouldn't really be a big deal. But as you will soon find out it happens constantly.

 

As for the second part you don't think "That name has been discarded," Moridin said. "Just as each of us, upon being Chosen, discarded what we were and the names men called us. From this moment on, this man shall be known only as M'Hael" is saying he is chosen?

 

Come on. You're telling me I'm the only one who does stuff like that in real life or in meetings to get their point across? I do it quite often. All the time. Daily...

 

And unfortunately so does Brandon, consistently throughout TGS and ToM. There is a pattern of not trusting his own writing to convey or the readers to unerstand subtlety, so we are consistently sledge hammered with repition. It is a very real issue in his work and one that takes little effort to point out. It comes down to what one prefers in their writing I guess. I don't like to be lead by the hand, if you don't agree that is fine but there is no reason to pretend the issue doesn't exist.

 

That YOU feel he got wrong. Not that I disagree that Mat could be improved. But this feels to me that you expect him to fix "mistakes" that are, after all, just your opinion. "Mistakes" that Team Jordan should have a large hand in helping notice and correct.

 

I used Mat as an example because that is one Brandon himself said he got wrong. As I mentioned above Team Jordan does have a role, but it doesn't help when the author refuses to use the entire time alloted for revising and polishing.

 

Edit: To add that I thought your example with Egwene was well done. I get that and to that end I condemn hyperbolic claims against Brandon's work when I come across them. Guess it comes down to what Luckers says in his last post. At first we heard nothing but praise and it took a fair amount for things to shift. At this point, knowing the little I do about how things have gone down, let's just say I don't feel like my critique has been over blown in relation to the process. If anything I have had to be measured with what I say to protect anonymity.

[Yamahako]

 

As for the Perrin thing...I agree that there was some conflict in the beginning but I felt like that had firmly been decided against as the books went on. He had a struggle at first, but that struggle defined him and the type of leader he grew into. It was never a question of whether or not he was actually going to turn to the WotL...it was all about him taking that experience in to forge him into the leader he became. Also, it was a lot about showing us as readers what type of person Perrin was. We got to see just how gentle hearted he really was yet the disdain also showed he had some steel to his backbone.

 

But that's why I think it seems so much like the original plan. The whole series is about becoming the thing you don't want to be, and being a better person in the end because of coming to grips with that aspect of yourself. Each of the main characters goes through this struggle, and its only when they finally accept what they are, that they begin to excel. Because we didn't get to see Jordan finish out all of these plot lines, we can't know for certain how they were supposed to end, but I truly believe this was foreshadowed strongly through the series. You can see this really well in the (RJ completed) Nynaeve, Mat, and Elayne story lines. It's one of the reasons that I feel that their characterization feels "off" in the more recent books, its because they've already climaxed through their personal (internal) journeys and maybe there was less of a reason for them to grow in the last few books. Though I suppose this discussion is better made for another thread :-)

[PaulChauvet]

Hey Luckers(or anyone who might have some input), do you know if J.V. Jones was ever considered? Not sure if she read WoT and maybe unrealistic with her own troubles getting books out but I think it could have been an interesting choice purely from a writing perspective. Similar style to RJ with great detail.

I enjoy JV Jones books but if she took over this would be five books and wouldn't be finished for 10 extra years. Last two books of Sword of Shadows had way too little plot advancement and came out far too slowly.

[Suttree]

Hey Luckers(or anyone who might have some input), do you know if J.V. Jones was ever considered? Not sure if she read WoT and maybe unrealistic with her own troubles getting books out but I think it could have been an interesting choice purely from a writing perspective. Similar style to RJ with great detail.

I enjoy JV Jones books but if she took over this would be five books and wouldn't be finished for 10 extra years. Last two books of Sword of Shadows had way too little plot advancement and came out far too slowly.

 

Yeah I agree Paul, was just an idle thought...

[thisguy]

If this is my thread, I have no problem with it being discussed here. ;)

[MarkDiLillo]

As for the Perrin thing...I agree that there was some conflict in the beginning but I felt like that had firmly been decided against as the books went on. He had a struggle at first, but that struggle defined him and the type of leader he grew into. It was never a question of whether or not he was actually going to turn to the WotL...it was all about him taking that experience in to forge him into the leader he became. Also, it was a lot about showing us as readers what type of person Perrin was. We got to see just how gentle hearted he really was yet the disdain also showed he had some steel to his backbone.

 

But that's why I think it seems so much like the original plan. The whole series is about becoming the thing you don't want to be, and being a better person in the end because of coming to grips with that aspect of yourself. Each of the main characters goes through this struggle, and its only when they finally accept what they are, that they begin to excel. Because we didn't get to see Jordan finish out all of these plot lines, we can't know for certain how they were supposed to end, but I truly believe this was foreshadowed strongly through the series. You can see this really well in the (RJ completed) Nynaeve, Mat, and Elayne story lines. It's one of the reasons that I feel that their characterization feels "off" in the more recent books, its because they've already climaxed through their personal (internal) journeys and maybe there was less of a reason for them to grow in the last few books. Though I suppose this discussion is better made for another thread :-)

 

Ya I actually agree. I could totally see how in the early stages of the book Perrin might have wanted to revert to the WotL, but at the point when BS took over I think it was entirely out of the question. He had gone too far down his path to even consider it.

[Vardar]

Well, I'm still a book away from BS's work. However, I don't see the big deal about this one line. And, considering the books seem to have a lot of people with a lot of question, maybe it's not a big deal to just say instead of imply; he's Chosen.

 

Well yeah, if it was just that one line it wouldn't really be a big deal. But as you will soon find out it happens constantly.

 

As for the second part you don't think "That name has been discarded," Moridin said. "Just as each of us, upon being Chosen, discarded what we were and the names men called us. From this moment on, this man shall be known only as M'Hael" is saying he is chosen?

 

Come on. You're telling me I'm the only one who does stuff like that in real life or in meetings to get their point across? I do it quite often. All the time. Daily...

 

Let's take this over to the Brandon thread so as not to sidetrack prologue discussion.

 

Another example: Listening to the TV last night, NFL announcer "Get Ready for hard hitting action, tomorrow on Thursday Night Foolball *Play dramatic music*, Thursday Night Fooltball, 8 pm, Thursday night"

 

... Thought you'd appreciate that.

[Ananta]

I love it when people bash something BS wrote saying how stupid and out of character it is, and then it turns out that part was written by RJ himself. That is my take on a lot of the criticism, it's done for the sake of criticism and they are looking at RJs writing through rose colored shades.

 

Anyway, I havent read these books gazillion times like some people have, and I'm not as big of a fan as a lot of people here... But yeah, I find Brandon's books just as good as RJs.

 

 

Let the bashing begin.

[metalisticpain]

All im going to say is you cant rag on brandon's obsession with mat and boot analogys when jordan stuffed the last 11 books with sniffs and smoothing of skirts :P

[MarkDiLillo]

I love it when people bash something BS wrote saying how stupid and out of character it is, and then it turns out that part was written by RJ himself. That is my take on a lot of the criticism, it's done for the sake of criticism and they are looking at RJs writing through rose colored shades.

 

Anyway, I havent read these books gazillion times like some people have, and I'm not as big of a fan as a lot of people here... But yeah, I find Brandon's books just as good as RJs.

 

 

Let the bashing begin.

 

Unfortunately, this doesn't happen too often. The scenes written by RJ are typically so different that it is pretty clear who wrote them. Sometimes Brandon changes them a tad here and there which can throw people off, but it is typically the portions that he changed that people notice and wince at while reading. The small writing differences don't bother me very much. It's the lack of attention to detail that appears to be nothing more than a lack of effort that really bothers me.

 

A perfect example:

 

Read the Avi section of the prologue. Notice how she refers to Rand by his first name to the Wise Ones. Now go back through all the 1000's of pages and find even ONE instance of where she calls Rand by his first and only his first name in the entire book. There is only one instance ever that I can think of and it was intentionally written that way to show the significance of the scene (Veins of Gold chapter where Avi and the girls bond Rand). Now suddenly Avi is just referring to him as Rand to the Wise Ones in the last book. This is really an unforgivable mistake and shows a flat out lack of effort to even attempt to get the voice/view of the Aiel and Avi correct. It is a significant cultural difference between the Aiel and a character point of Avi to not use only first names when addressing people they are not extremely close with. This isn't just something a fan observed that is implied in the series. This was specifically mentioned in the books and entire chapters have touched on Avi's difficulty in referring to Elayne by just her first name after they became sisters.

 

If you don't think it's a big deal and you dont notice the difference yourself please keep in mind that is perfectly OK. You are an admitted casual reader. You are not a die hard fan. The problem is that the guy who is authoring the final couple books should at the very least be on the level of a die hard fan and not a fricken casual reader who doesn't notice that kind of stuff. Brandon Sanderon's writing is LITTERED with examples very similar to what I just pointed out. And again, what really irks people is not that these are differences between the two authors...it's that Sanderson just simply is not spending the time to even attempt to get things like this right. He WAS a die-hard fan...he is not someone who is new to the WoT.

[PaulChauvet]

If you don't think it's a big deal and you dont notice the difference yourself please keep in mind that is perfectly OK. You are a casual reader. You are not a die hard fan.

I strongly disagree with this statement. I've been reading these books since TSR came out, have read (and/or listened to the audiobooks) at least four or five times each. I know the story inside and out and know the story far better than most (though of course, not better than many of those on these forums).

 

Saying that if someone doesn't agree with you they are a 'casual' fan is an insult.

[TristanWebb]

I agree that the small changes are what irritate me most about the authorship change. Changing bloody ashes to blood and ashes is something I have gone though all of my ebooks to fix. Not the tiny details that require memorizing the whole saga to notice, but the small changes that everyone notices that make it seem like he didn't really care enough to correct his mental litany to what is actually in the text.

 

I feel strongly that the fanbase should of been included much more than they are. With resources like Luckers and Terez (just the two who spring to mind) I don't see why you wouldn't include them when you bring on a new author. Give Luckers the Cadsuane scenes after the first draft and you would have a much more consistent character than you currently have.

 

Though, I have the same opinion about Lucas not involving the Star Wars community when it was time to make the prequels.

[MarkDiLillo]

If you don't think it's a big deal and you dont notice the difference yourself please keep in mind that is perfectly OK. You are a casual reader. You are not a die hard fan.

I strongly disagree with this statement. I've been reading these books since TSR came out, have read (and/or listened to the audiobooks) at least four or five times each. I know the story inside and out and know the story far better than most (though of course, not better than many of those on these forums).

 

Saying that if someone doesn't agree with you they are a 'casual' fan is an insult.

 

You should read his original post closer. He admitted that he was a casual fan...hence why I said that.

[PaulChauvet]

The way it is worded implies that anyone who didn't see this is a casual fan.

[MarkDiLillo]

I agree that the small changes are what irritate me most about the authorship change. Changing bloody ashes to blood and ashes is something I have gone though all of my ebooks to fix. Not the tiny details that require memorizing the whole saga to notice, but the small changes that everyone notices that make it seem like he didn't really care enough to correct his mental litany to what is actually in the text.

 

I feel strongly that the fanbase should of been included much more than they are. With resources like Luckers and Terez (just the two who spring to mind) I don't see why you wouldn't include them when you bring on a new author. Give Luckers the Cadsuane scenes after the first draft and you would have a much more consistent character than you currently have.

 

Though, I have the same opinion about Lucas not involving the Star Wars community when it was time to make the prequels.

 

 

And when all of those small inconsistencies exist as a result of what appears to be nothing more than a lack of effort, it is very easy to point towards the larger issues and say those are a result of a lack of effort as well. And it is very likely that they are IMO. For example, Mat and Cadsuane scenes just feel "off". If all of the small details were done correctly, and the objective parts were handled well then people wouldn't be so critical of Brandon because they would say "well he tried his best - he just couldnt match RJs writing". The problem is that we don't have an iron-clad text with all of the details nailed down and only a few small tidbits messed up to point at and say that he did a good job with the small things. On the contrary, we have quite the opposite and that makes the subjective changes even harder to bear. It makes the ridiculous Mat viewpoints entirely unforgivable because if he can't even put forth the effort to get blood and bloody ashes right then how can we say in good faith that we believe he tried his hardest to match the voice of Mat to RJ?

 

The sad answer is that it appears he didn't put his best efforts into these books. It's sad not only because it puts a black mark on such a fantastic series, but also because this was a grand opportunity for BS and likely turned him into a wealthy man. At the very least, it turned a fledgling career into what will most assuredly be a successful and long lived career. And IMO it's sad that he couldn't put forth his absolute best work on such an opportunity, and instead just "took the money and ran" so to speak.

 

His punishment is going to be neverending criticism by the fan base. And I believe it is very much deserved. On the same hand, I am also pretty confident that he is capable of ignoring it and continuing on with his life without the slightest inconvenience. So don't feel too bad for him...

[MarkDiLillo]

I agree that the small changes are what irritate me most about the authorship change. Changing bloody ashes to blood and ashes is something I have gone though all of my ebooks to fix. Not the tiny details that require memorizing the whole saga to notice, but the small changes that everyone notices that make it seem like he didn't really care enough to correct his mental litany to what is actually in the text.

 

I feel strongly that the fanbase should of been included much more than they are. With resources like Luckers and Terez (just the two who spring to mind) I don't see why you wouldn't include them when you bring on a new author. Give Luckers the Cadsuane scenes after the first draft and you would have a much more consistent character than you currently have.

 

Though, I have the same opinion about Lucas not involving the Star Wars community when it was time to make the prequels.

 

One quick comment on that Star Wars thing...

 

Its important to remember that Lucas and co. are all still alive and well for the Star Wars prequels. I'm not a huge Star Wars guy myself, but at least the original author/inventor/creative guy took care of it. In the case of WoT, the original author had passed away and using outside resources like beta readers and fans to help fine tune pieces of the story would have been very beneficial IMO.

[PaulChauvet]

I think when you compare the reviews for the the last two WoT books to the 'middle' WoT books you will find that most fans aren't bothered by this and are in fact, very happy with Sanderson's work.