Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[The Fisher King]

I hate to say this but - to me, least - Brandon's writing is extremely similar to David Eddings.

 

And, sadly, that is NOT a compliment.

 

Fun when I was a kid. Many warm memories. But once I cleared 13 that "witty repartee" style just made my teeth hurt.

 

 

Fish

[TheAngryDruid]

I guess I'm one of the more critical on here of BS. But I just want to say I don't think BS "ruined the series" or any such thing. Without him, the series wouldn't have been ruined, it would have been unfinished. So I'm grateful for the finish. And there certainly have been some high points (Egwene in tGS, Verin's reveal, Rand in tGS, Faile and Perrin in ToM, Perrin forging his Hammer, etc).

 

But I don't think that should stop anyone from giving their honest opinion. Mat has been awful most of the time (aside from Seven Striped Lass, Into the Void, and ToG). There have been many continuity errors in aMoL when BS and Team Jordan said the needed more time to make sure some of the errors in ToM didn't happen again. That is nice sentiment, but it is hard to say they are off to a good start (Taren Ferry destroyed, linking issues, comings and goings at the BT) and some of the dialogue has just been outright silly or inappropriate for what is going on around the characters.

 

RJ justifiably took is share of heat around here from 8-10 as well. Justifiably so. But he came back in a big way in KoD (in my opinion). Maybe BS will come back in a big way in the rest of aMoL. First impressions aren't good, but there is a lot of book still out there.

[herid]

@TheAngryDruid I certainly don't mean to suggest that people should not feel free to criticize. As I said I viewed both TOM and tGS as quite flawed from the start for all the reasons you guys mention and some that you don't. I ranted about that elsewhere so I won't now. But even so there was still a lot that I liked in both of those books. In TOM which seems to be the least liked of the two I liked a number of scenes in the prologue (the borderlander tower, Fain, Apples first), pretty much all the Rand and Ituralde scenes, most of the Perrin arc, Into the void, Working leather, Nakomi and Avi's trip through the columns. I particularly like the Oncala scene because of the clever misdirection of guilt there. RJ worthy IMO. ToG scene was pretty good too.

I guess what I find startling after more than a year away from the forum is a markedly noticeable negative change in opinions about ToM and tGS among many of the regulars whose opinions I respect a lot.

AMOL is a different story. I basically agree with your assessment so far. I do keep my fingers crossed that it will get better.

[yoniy0]

I guess what I find startling after more than a year away from the forum is a markedly noticeable negative change in opinions about ToM and tGS

It didn't come easy, but I agree that it's one of these things where when the change finally comes, it tends to be surprisingly rapid. That's human nature, I guess. And, as you say, so far AMoL doesn't seem to reflect the mindset of correcting past mistakes we were led to believe TeamJ held. If the process has changed, the results haven't, not that we've seen. That's also part of what you're seeing, I think (a few months back you literally couldn't say anything critical about ToM without Suttree's vocally insisting that TeamJ have noticed what we're saying and are acting to fix what needs fixing).

[The Fisher King]

Also, people blab their traps more when they're upset about something.

 

 

Fish

[Agitel]

The closer we get to release and the more snippets we get the more heated all this discussion becomes. I see it in all the topics. I can't wait until the series has been done for awhile. I don't think opinions will necessarily change, but I do imagine that discussion will be much more good-natured.

 

The feeling I get while reading many of these topics is the same Rand got from having to reach through the taint to get to saidin.

 

I guess what I find startling after more than a year away from the forum is a markedly noticeable negative change in opinions about ToM and tGS among many of the regulars whose opinions I respect a lot.

 

This happens to many incredibly hyped things. First it receives a lot of praise. Then all the flaws come out and the critics take over. It's a complete counter-movement. Eventually, that passes.

 

Then the truth is left. I don't know what that will be in this case, but what I've so far described has been a predictable cycle for many things on certain boards I've visited. Maybe it doesn't apply here. *shrugs*

[sdelu]

I cut this out of another topic, so bear with me if it doesn't flow with the most recent debates...

 

 

Yes, I agree there are problems with the novels. Big problems, in some cases, and insignificant problems as well.

 

That said, I do think some of the criticisms presuppose a few things that I do not agree with:

 

1) That Brandon is a better writer than TGS/ToM show. I don't think he is, at least in terms of peak talent (and maybe overall. I keep flip-flopping on this). I think his other works are more polished and play more to his strengths as a writer, but that's because he owned them completely and had the time to work on them to his satisfaction.

 

2) That Brandon deserves the amount of blame he receives. I don't think he does. Oh, he does deserve his fair share of it, don't get me wrong. He should have "fixed" a few of his issues if not by ToM then certainly by AMoL. But he's not the only one that should be correcting these things.

 

3) That Brandon has the final say on what makes it into the book.

 

The fact of the matter is that this is a group effort. WoT as a whole is a poorly edited series (or a brilliantly edited series, I suppose, depending on how monstrous RJs manuscripts were), and it really shows in the BS entries. Someone could have stepped in at any point and said "you need to change this," or "this does not work in a WoT novel," and so on and so forth. Yet apparently someone thought Hinderstap was a good idea, or that it was at least passable enough to make it into series, even if it served no purpose other than inflating the page count. What I think is really telling is that there was almost no beta for the final novel. That is...scary. Were it RJ writing it wouldn't be a bad thing, but this BS took over a series with 12 previous entries and should not be expected to get by without a beta read. It's just not feasible.

 

So, did BS put his full effort into it? I don't know. Did Harriet, Maria, or Alan? I don't know. But someone somewhere along the line made the decision that the book was good enough to be published, and it may not have been a decision made by any of the four people working on this project.

 

Publishing is a business. The final three books were almost guaranteed to sell millions of copies. Spending the time to make the books perfect (years, really) would likely cost more money than would shipping error-riddled books as fast as possible. It's unfortunate, but I highly doubt BS & co. would have been allowed to take any more time than they already did.

 

From an outside perspective, the real issue is that this whole project appears to have been poorly managed.

 

So... there's that. Just adding my own thoughts for the first time in a few years.

[yoniy0]

From an outside perspective, the real issue is that this whole project appears to have been poorly managed.

I disagree with the extent to which you think the matter was out of Brandon's and Harriet's hands. First of all, experience shows that when either of them says "this is not ready, we need more time" they got it. Secondly, Harriet holds the rights, and to the best of my knowledge, she doesn't need the income from these books. If she'd said no to a release, it wouldn't happen. As simple as that. Nor do I think Tor would give up on the entire project because of any delay; it's worth money no matter when it comes.

[Agitel]

From an outside perspective, the real issue is that this whole project appears to have been poorly managed.

I disagree with the extent to which you think the matter was out of Brandon's and Harriet's hands. First of all, experience shows that when either of them says "this is not ready, we need more time" they got it. Secondly, Harriet holds the rights, and to the best of my knowledge, she doesn't need the income from these books. If she'd said no to a release, it wouldn't happen. As simple as that. Nor do I think Tor would give up on the entire project because of any delay; it's worth money no matter when it comes.

 

They did accept a delay. They asked for a single book. Brandon went back to them and told them it'll take three. What has been very clear is that they wanted this done quickly, Tor and Harriet included, with no major delays. Brandon has emphasized a few times that he gave his word to Harriet that it would be done quickly. He's also said that Harriet expressed "a great urgency" to complete the project.

[yoniy0]

They did accept a delay.

Which was what I said.

 

They asked for a single book. Brandon went back to them and told them it'll take three.

Actually, it was Tom that--upon seeing what Brandon had done after a time--decided to split it into three books.

 

What has been very clear is that they wanted this done quickly, Tor and Harriet included, with no major delays. Brandon has emphasized a few times that he gave his word to Harriet that it would be done quickly. He's also said that Harriet expressed "a great urgency" to complete the project.

That Brandon promised to do so with expediency, yes. But not fast, necessarily, but rather as fast as possible. Can you supply quotes to support claims to the contrary?

[Agitel]

They did accept a delay.

Which was what I said.

 

They asked for a single book. Brandon went back to them and told them it'll take three.

Actually, it was Tom that--upon seeing what Brandon had done after a time--decided to split it into three books.

 

What has been very clear is that they wanted this done quickly, Tor and Harriet included, with no major delays. Brandon has emphasized a few times that he gave his word to Harriet that it would be done quickly. He's also said that Harriet expressed "a great urgency" to complete the project.

That Brandon promised to do so with expediency, yes. But not fast, necessarily, but rather as fast as possible. Can you supply quotes to support claims to the contrary?

 

 

You're right, it was Tom's decision to split the books officially, but not before Brandon pointed out that at 250,000 words he felt he only had about 1/3 of the book done and had set his estimate for the total at 750k words. I'm primarily using Brandon's blog entry on the split.

 

 

I wrote all summer, and the next point of interest comes at Worldcon. Tom and I were on a panel together, talking about AMoL. I noted that (by that point) I had around 250k written. He said something like "Ah, so you're almost done!" I looked chagrined and said "Actually, I feel that I'm only about 1/3 of the way there, Tom." He blinked, shocked, and then laughed a full bellied laugh. "It's happening again!" he exclaimed. "Jim sold me one book that somehow became three, and now it's happening again!"

 

...

 

In January, Tom called Harriet and they talked. At this point, I'd hit my 400k goal, and I knew that I was only about halfway done. (If even that far along.) Very little of that 400k had been revised or drafted. Tom and Harriet chatted, and several things came up. One of the most dominating points was this: it had been four years since the fans had been given KNIFE OF DREAMS. Tom felt that we NEEDED to provide them a book in 2009. They couldn't wait until I finished the entire volume to publish something.

 

Getting this book out ASAP to the waiting fans was not just a priority to Brandon but to Harriet and Tom as well. I think you're calling "fast" what I call "as fast as possible."

[sleepinghour]

You're right, it was Tom's decision to split the books officially, but not before Brandon pointed out that at 250,000 words he felt he only had about 1/3 of the book done and had set his estimate for the total at 750k words.

 

Tor paid RJ 'huge advances' for AMoL and the outriggers, which were used to pay RJ's medical bills (sources for that information are quoted below). I won't make any guesses as to whether that had any impact on the decision to allow someone to finish WoT or to split AMoL into three books, but it probably didn't hurt that this would allow Tor to recoup some of that money.

 

About the prequels/sequels, there was no big news. Sanderson 'strongly advised' Harriet not to have them written—but if she thinks otherwise, he wants to write them. He said (contrary to what he implied before—or at least what fans understood of what he was saying) that it's not really a matter of money. The 'huge advances' and new contracts Tom Doherty showered Jim with came about out of personal friendship for him because the Rigneys needed help with Jim's escalating medical expenses and it was also Doherty's way to tell Jordan he had faith he would pull through and live to write many more books for him. He's apparently telling Harriet not to worry about those advances or to let that influence her decisions. According to Brandon, it's the three outriggers Doherty is trying very hard to convince Harriet to have written, and the motive is quite personal: RJ sold him hard on the ideas for this trilogy and Doherty is apparently the biggest Mat Cauthon fan on the planet, so he wants these books written very very badly. Brandon would still prefer they were not. Harriet doesn't want to think about them for the moment. —WorldCon 2009, Dom reporting

 

Tom [Doherty] did say he has the contract for these novels [the outriggers] already and intends on seeing them safely to our hands. —JordanCon 2009, Richard Fife reporting

[ShaunShawn]

A take from a new guy...or at least someone who has only lurked here for years and years...

 

Obviously this is my first post here and I’ve always avoided the more negative threads as they are too easy to get drawn into. And of course, after getting drawn in (on other boards) I look back on what I wrote and find myself feeling upset that I wasted my time. I mean really, are you actually going to change anyone’s mind in an argument on a message board?

 

I think far too many people are taking the finishing of this series personally and are taking it out on the only guy that is still around to receive that criticism. I’m not saying that criticism of BS’ writing isn’t valid, it is perfectly valid. He is not RJ as he has admitted several times. He does things well that frankly aren’t as important in the WoT, and isn't as strong with the smaller details that have so much significance. The blame for a lot of these mistakes lies in the selection of Brandon as the guy to finish the series…there are many other writers that would have done a much better job fitting within the world that RJ created. That said, I’m not sure any of them would have accepted the task due to its thankless nature. Actually, thankless isn’t the right word…but I view it as so difficult that any author with the chops to pull it off probably has so much experience and such a huge fanbase that they would never jump at the experience.

 

So criticism of BS, of the writer selection process, of the editing…it is all valid. Let me just repeat that.

 

But what we are seeing now isn’t criticism of the books or the writing style, it is attacks on individuals (mainly BS) for EVERYTHING they do. Luckers, you are looking for reasons to be upset. Flying off the handle because of something written on twitter is silly. How much explanation can you pack in a few words? Like Brandon said, it is hard to explain things in full on twitter. Also like he said, I worry about how personally you take small, meaningless blurbs. We all love this series and you have obviously made it a much bigger part of your life than most of us. But at this point you are responding with extreme anger over off hand comments that are not directed at you.

 

I have no idea what passed between you and BS and the RJ team in the buildup to the last three books. You have hinted at providing BS with a list of criticisms that were ignored…I would guess BS would tell a different version of that story. Given that you are an aspiring writer, how are we to know that you didn’t supply chapter’s worth of material that you had written and you are now upset because BS didn’t incorporate any of that? In fact, given your recent behavior something along those lines seems entirely possible.

 

My advice for everyone? Take a deep breath, step off the ledge, and let the final book play itself out. The criticism of writing style is fine…but the recent personal attacks on BS (and other posters) are just silly and a waste of time (and yes, I realize I probably just wasted my time with this entire post). And they make this forum a place that no one wants to visit.

[Suttree]

I have no idea what passed between you and BS and the RJ team in the buildup to the last three books. You have hinted at providing BS with a list of criticisms that were ignored…I would guess BS would tell a different version of that story. Given that you are an aspiring writer, how are we to know that you didn’t supply chapter’s worth of material that you had written and you are now upset because BS didn’t incorporate any of that? In fact, given your recent behavior something along those lines seems entirely possible.

 

Interesting...second person today with a brand new account accusing Luckers of this. Something must be in the water.

[The Fisher King]

What cracks me up the very most is all those here insinuating that the criticism has somehow been rooted by "personal" reasons (disliking Brandon the person).

 

It is absurd. People wouldn't care if Brandon burned down orphanages in his spare time if his work had been remotely close to KOD in quality.

 

If Brandon Sanderson had delivered, the fandom would have seen Brandon as a GOD.

 

It is BRANDON who has not done HIS part. You do NOT criticize loyal fans for THEIR criticism of the work as is going on here. Its absurd and obviously only a product of this Internet era.

 

And noone on this Board has been "vicious" or "vile" in their criticism of Sanderson. Not on a personal level. The one time I saw it even BEGIN to go that way it was - rightly - shutdown.

 

I think of my dad doing manual labor 18 hours a day to provide of his family...when I think of soldiers dying...and what they would say to someone getting angry because his favorite author had his feelings hurt on the internet (much less that author himself) ... unreal.

 

Stop being mad, bros.

 

Winners EMBRACE criticism.

 

And trust me. There are places on the internet where they have been FAR more "vicious" towards Brandon than THIS place has EVER allowed.

 

 

Fish

[Agitel]

I have no idea what passed between you and BS and the RJ team in the buildup to the last three books. You have hinted at providing BS with a list of criticisms that were ignored…I would guess BS would tell a different version of that story. Given that you are an aspiring writer, how are we to know that you didn’t supply chapter’s worth of material that you had written and you are now upset because BS didn’t incorporate any of that? In fact, given your recent behavior something along those lines seems entirely possible.

 

Interesting...second person today with a brand new account accusing Luckers of this. Something must be in the water.

 

This accusation is coming from nowhere and has no basis in anything I'm aware of.

 

The fact that it's being made by some type of alt account is just suspicious. There's no credibility to that.

[The Fisher King]

Ooooooooh...BUSTED!!!!!

 

 

Fish

[TootThatHorn]

A take from a new guy...or at least someone who has only lurked here for years and years...

 

Obviously this is my first post here and I’ve always avoided the more negative threads as they are too easy to get drawn into. And of course, after getting drawn in (on other boards) I look back on what I wrote and find myself feeling upset that I wasted my time. I mean really, are you actually going to change anyone’s mind in an argument on a message board?

 

I think far too many people are taking the finishing of this series personally and are taking it out on the only guy that is still around to receive that criticism. I’m not saying that criticism of BS’ writing isn’t valid, it is perfectly valid. He is not RJ as he has admitted several times. He does things well that frankly aren’t as important in the WoT, and isn't as strong with the smaller details that have so much significance. The blame for a lot of these mistakes lies in the selection of Brandon as the guy to finish the series…there are many other writers that would have done a much better job fitting within the world that RJ created. That said, I’m not sure any of them would have accepted the task due to its thankless nature. Actually, thankless isn’t the right word…but I view it as so difficult that any author with the chops to pull it off probably has so much experience and such a huge fanbase that they would never jump at the experience.

 

So criticism of BS, of the writer selection process, of the editing…it is all valid. Let me just repeat that.

 

But what we are seeing now isn’t criticism of the books or the writing style, it is attacks on individuals (mainly BS) for EVERYTHING they do. Luckers, you are looking for reasons to be upset. Flying off the handle because of something written on twitter is silly. How much explanation can you pack in a few words? Like Brandon said, it is hard to explain things in full on twitter. Also like he said, I worry about how personally you take small, meaningless blurbs. We all love this series and you have obviously made it a much bigger part of your life than most of us. But at this point you are responding with extreme anger over off hand comments that are not directed at you.

 

I have no idea what passed between you and BS and the RJ team in the buildup to the last three books. You have hinted at providing BS with a list of criticisms that were ignored…I would guess BS would tell a different version of that story. Given that you are an aspiring writer, how are we to know that you didn’t supply chapter’s worth of material that you had written and you are now upset because BS didn’t incorporate any of that? In fact, given your recent behavior something along those lines seems entirely possible.

 

My advice for everyone? Take a deep breath, step off the ledge, and let the final book play itself out. The criticism of writing style is fine…but the recent personal attacks on BS (and other posters) are just silly and a waste of time (and yes, I realize I probably just wasted my time with this entire post). And they make this forum a place that no one wants to visit.

 

Beating a dead horse alt account. Nobody here is stopping the production of the book. I'll bet everyone that criticizes the books will still read the last one.

 

However while valid arguments are being made as to what is written not going over well, the same counter arguments are hashed. "You're unappreciative. This is disrespectful. Blah blah blah."

 

No one has been disrespectful. No one has turned and said people who enjoy the books completely are wrong.

 

This is a discussion forum. For good or bad everyone has a voice here, able to say whatever they wish. If it isn't praise for the writing then so be it, shouldn't the fact that so many people don't like it that it is a point to be discussed?

 

This idea of censoring the criticism because it's bringing the website down? That is appalling. I find it much more interesting that there simply aren't counter arguments being made; instead people are making it their own battle to stand up for BS.

 

Make a valid point. I've criticized him on here too, but I've also praised him for how he writes Rand and Perrin. I think it's spot on.

 

Point being, make it a civil discussion instead of all these insane assumptions about people while simultaneously pointing out that we are making assumptions about twitter responses and blog posts.

[ShaunShawn]

Really? I must have missed the first one...and I'm not accusing him of doing that, it's obviously a pretty loony theory. I'm just saying that we are getting one side of the story, Luckers claims to have intimate knowledge of the situation and is accusing Brandon of being lazy and dismissive of fan complaints. That may be the case...or maybe my loony theory is true...or maybe Luckers never sent anything to Brandon. Or maybe he did but it was worthless ramblings. We don't know what that back and forth consisted of, and given the behavior of Luckers in the last few days / weeks, I kind of feel like a loony theory like that may not be outside the realm of possibility.

 

I have no idea what passed between you and BS and the RJ team in the buildup to the last three books. You have hinted at providing BS with a list of criticisms that were ignored…I would guess BS would tell a different version of that story. Given that you are an aspiring writer, how are we to know that you didn’t supply chapter’s worth of material that you had written and you are now upset because BS didn’t incorporate any of that? In fact, given your recent behavior something along those lines seems entirely possible.

 

Interesting...second person today with a brand new account accusing Luckers of this. Something must be in the water.

[Saken]

Fish, what is considered the fandom. I would say that the fandom are the people who have read the series at least once. With that in mind, you can look at Amazon and the fandom clearly thinks that Brandon Sanderson did in fact deliver.

 

If you compare TGS and ToM with Crossroads of Twilight, 4.5, 4, and 2 stars respectively.

[ShaunShawn]

To a certain extent we are saying the same thing. It's just a book, not that big of a deal in the big scheme of things. And in terms of things being personal, I think it's entirely personal between Luckers and BS, at least from Luckers point of view. Hence, my loony theory. At some point everything took a very personal turn for him. And yes, he never actually insults BS as a person. But he does imply that he is lazy, that he didn't care about the final books and making them right, and that he is basically a bad writer. Only the last of which seems to be a valid complaint from someone who was not sitting by BS every step of the way.

 

I'm not trying to defend BS or his writing...judging from his give and take with Luckers on Twitter he doesn't need it. And I agree that so many parts of the last two books haven't seemed right. But many are jumping from "Brandon didn't write this part correctly" to "Brandon is lazy" to "Brandon didn't care about these books"...the next logical place is to feel genuine dislike for someone. I feel like Luckers is already there. My MAIN point is basically what you said - all that bad juju is just a huge waste of time.

 

 

What cracks me up the very most is all those here insinuating that the criticism has somehow been rooted by "personal" reasons (disliking Brandon the person).

 

It is absurd. People wouldn't care if Brandon burned down orphanages in his spare time if his work had been remotely close to KOD in quality.

 

If Brandon Sanderson had delivered, the fandom would have seen Brandon as a GOD.

 

It is BRANDON who has not done HIS part. You do NOT criticize loyal fans for THEIR criticism of the work as is going on here. Its absurd and obviously only a product of this Internet era.

 

And noone on this Board has been "vicious" or "vile" in their criticism of Sanderson. Not on a personal level. The one time I saw it even BEGIN to go that way it was - rightly - shutdown.

 

I think of my dad doing manual labor 18 hours a day to provide of his family...when I think of soldiers dying...and what they would say to someone getting angry because his favorite author had his feelings hurt on the internet (much less that author himself) ... unreal.

 

Stop being mad, bros.

 

Winners EMBRACE criticism.

 

And trust me. There are places on the internet where they have been FAR more "vicious" towards Brandon than THIS place has EVER allowed.

 

 

Fish

[Saken]

Really? I must have missed the first one...and I'm not accusing him of doing that, it's obviously a pretty loony theory. I'm just saying that we are getting one side of the story, Luckers claims to have intimate knowledge of the situation and is accusing Brandon of being lazy and dismissive of fan complaints. That may be the case...or maybe my loony theory is true...or maybe Luckers never sent anything to Brandon. Or maybe he did but it was worthless ramblings. We don't know what that back and forth consisted of, and given the behavior of Luckers in the last few days / weeks, I kind of feel like a loony theory like that may not be outside the realm of possibility.

 

I have no idea what passed between you and BS and the RJ team in the buildup to the last three books. You have hinted at providing BS with a list of criticisms that were ignored…I would guess BS would tell a different version of that story. Given that you are an aspiring writer, how are we to know that you didn’t supply chapter’s worth of material that you had written and you are now upset because BS didn’t incorporate any of that? In fact, given your recent behavior something along those lines seems entirely possible.

 

Interesting...second person today with a brand new account accusing Luckers of this. Something must be in the water.

 

If you read Lucker's posts it is obvious that if he did send something it wouldn't have been "worthless ramblings."

[The Fisher King]

Because of fandom, Star Wars Prequels shattered Box Office Records, too ;-)

 

 

Fish

[Suttree]

Really? I must have missed the first one...and I'm not accusing him of doing that, it's obviously a pretty loony theory. I'm just saying that we are getting one side of the story, Luckers claims to have intimate knowledge of the situation and is accusing Brandon of being lazy and dismissive of fan complaints. That may be the case...or maybe my loony theory is true...or maybe Luckers never sent anything to Brandon. Or maybe he did but it was worthless ramblings. We don't know what that back and forth consisted of, and given the behavior of Luckers in the last few days / weeks, I kind of feel like a loony theory like that may not be outside the realm of possibility.

 

Trust me, you have no idea what you are talking about. Not saying that to be rude but I know enough to understand you are totally off base here. I know enough of how the process has gone from various people I trust(yes there is fault to go around with Team Jordan as well), I have reviewed Luckers critique that Brandon himself requested and it is far from "worthless ramblings". All of his complaints are very much valid and perhaps post AMoL things will be allowed to be discussed openly.

[ShaunShawn]

Where did I ever say anything about censorship? Do what you want on this message board - like I said, I tend to avoid these threads (and I absolutely promise you, I am an original first time poster...not an alt. Not that I can convince anyone otherwise).

 

I also specifically said to criticize away. I think BS hosed up plenty of parts and got a lot right. Go ahead and criticize his writing. And I don't care if Luckers' posts take over the entire forum. I was just trying to bring some sanity to the discussion...Luckers seems to be taking this very personally and I think it's silly.

 

Did you read my post? I feel like you read a bit, decided you didn't like my take and inserted your own assumptions about what the rest of my post contained. I said nothing about censorship, removing posts, and I specifically said that BS deserved criticism for some of his writing.

 

 

A take from a new guy...or at least someone who has only lurked here for years and years...

 

Obviously this is my first post here and I’ve always avoided the more negative threads as they are too easy to get drawn into. And of course, after getting drawn in (on other boards) I look back on what I wrote and find myself feeling upset that I wasted my time. I mean really, are you actually going to change anyone’s mind in an argument on a message board?

 

I think far too many people are taking the finishing of this series personally and are taking it out on the only guy that is still around to receive that criticism. I’m not saying that criticism of BS’ writing isn’t valid, it is perfectly valid. He is not RJ as he has admitted several times. He does things well that frankly aren’t as important in the WoT, and isn't as strong with the smaller details that have so much significance. The blame for a lot of these mistakes lies in the selection of Brandon as the guy to finish the series…there are many other writers that would have done a much better job fitting within the world that RJ created. That said, I’m not sure any of them would have accepted the task due to its thankless nature. Actually, thankless isn’t the right word…but I view it as so difficult that any author with the chops to pull it off probably has so much experience and such a huge fanbase that they would never jump at the experience.

 

So criticism of BS, of the writer selection process, of the editing…it is all valid. Let me just repeat that.

 

But what we are seeing now isn’t criticism of the books or the writing style, it is attacks on individuals (mainly BS) for EVERYTHING they do. Luckers, you are looking for reasons to be upset. Flying off the handle because of something written on twitter is silly. How much explanation can you pack in a few words? Like Brandon said, it is hard to explain things in full on twitter. Also like he said, I worry about how personally you take small, meaningless blurbs. We all love this series and you have obviously made it a much bigger part of your life than most of us. But at this point you are responding with extreme anger over off hand comments that are not directed at you.

 

I have no idea what passed between you and BS and the RJ team in the buildup to the last three books. You have hinted at providing BS with a list of criticisms that were ignored…I would guess BS would tell a different version of that story. Given that you are an aspiring writer, how are we to know that you didn’t supply chapter’s worth of material that you had written and you are now upset because BS didn’t incorporate any of that? In fact, given your recent behavior something along those lines seems entirely possible.

 

My advice for everyone? Take a deep breath, step off the ledge, and let the final book play itself out. The criticism of writing style is fine…but the recent personal attacks on BS (and other posters) are just silly and a waste of time (and yes, I realize I probably just wasted my time with this entire post). And they make this forum a place that no one wants to visit.

 

Beating a dead horse alt account. Nobody here is stopping the production of the book. I'll bet everyone that criticizes the books will still read the last one.

 

However while valid arguments are being made as to what is written not going over well, the same counter arguments are hashed. "You're unappreciative. This is disrespectful. Blah blah blah."

 

No one has been disrespectful. No one has turned and said people who enjoy the books completely are wrong.

 

This is a discussion forum. For good or bad everyone has a voice here, able to say whatever they wish. If it isn't praise for the writing then so be it, shouldn't the fact that so many people don't like it that it is a point to be discussed?

 

This idea of censoring the criticism because it's bringing the website down? That is appalling. I find it much more interesting that there simply aren't counter arguments being made; instead people are making it their own battle to stand up for BS.

 

Make a valid point. I've criticized him on here too, but I've also praised him for how he writes Rand and Perrin. I think it's spot on.

 

Point being, make it a civil discussion instead of all these insane assumptions about people while simultaneously pointing out that we are making assumptions about twitter responses and blog posts.