Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[The Fisher King]

Sadly, the letter WAS in the book :(

 

Just another Zany Exploit of Master Crimson! :(

 

Its in TOM. Chapter 11.

 

 

Fish

[The Fisher King]

''There's nothing here but heat and flies and you can find those anywhere.''

 

VS

 

''I even used my ring as a signet! Like it was paper proper! Don't mind the scratched out words and misspellings. I was going to rewrite this letter but Thom is laffing at me so hard I want to be done.''

 

 

Fish

[Terez]

I went through and read his AMA on Reddit, he did it about a year ago. I was honestly surprised at how little he was asked about WoT. Surprisingly enough (to me anyways) he seems to have a pretty avid following for his original works, which I would assume could be much better given that it is all YOUR original work rather than finishing off someone else's.

 

We didn't know about the Reddit AMA in advance. I remember when we found out about it, there were a few WoT fans online and we all rushed to ask questions, but we were relatively conservative about asking them because we didn't want to hog the show. I think the Brandonfans knew about it in advance, but word didn't migrate to the WoT sphere until....here, I went and found a thread for you:

 

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5918

 

I think Brandon tweeted about it like right at that moment, so we had about an hour's notice.

[TootThatHorn]

''There's nothing here but heat and flies and you can find those anywhere.''

 

VS

 

''I even used my ring as a signet! Like it was paper proper! Don't mind the scratched out words and misspellings. I was going to rewrite this letter but Thom is laffing at me so hard I want to be done.''

 

 

Fish

 

Ugh, anyone tries to justify that and that is the one thing that I will call BS, and by that I don't mean I have Brandon's phone number.

[TootThatHorn]

I went through and read his AMA on Reddit, he did it about a year ago. I was honestly surprised at how little he was asked about WoT. Surprisingly enough (to me anyways) he seems to have a pretty avid following for his original works, which I would assume could be much better given that it is all YOUR original work rather than finishing off someone else's.

 

We didn't know about the Reddit AMA in advance. I remember when we found out about it, there were a few WoT fans online and we all rushed to ask questions, but we were relatively conservative about asking them because we didn't want to hog the show. I think the Brandonfans knew about it in advance, but word didn't migrate to the WoT sphere until....here, I went and found a thread for you:

 

http://www.theorylan...read.php?t=5918

 

I think Brandon tweeted about it like right at that moment, so we had about an hour's notice.

 

That sounds legit, I saw your name in there as well, I just remember thinkin "This person is everywhere!!" lol. The subreddit there is pretty light too.

[csarmi]

In both types of mistakes, though, Brandon is not totally to blame. Editing and Team Jordan also bear some responsibility. Yes?

 

 

This is a big one for me, too, Druid. Suttree has brought it up a lot too. Maria, Alan and Harriet have all been immersed in this series for YEARS longer than Brandon, and why they allowed some of his decisions to stand and make it into the published books has always Blown.Me.Away.

 

 

Fish

 

Aren't those the guys who never managed to hold RJ to the story though. Maybe they got used to RJ doing the work himself and didn't help BS enough?

[dwn]

 

[snip]

 

Ultimately, it's the frequent, trivial problems that make us more sensitive to the inevitable changes due to writing style--and that's too bad, because those problems should have been the easiest to correct.

 

-- dwn

 

Well said, and what's unfortunate about the part in bold is that you have to ask yourself, "If these are the parts he muffed that were easy to fix, then what glaring mistakes were made with the story itself, choosing directions and what not, will we never know about since it's not like RJ is around to ask?"

 

Graendal and Perrin ftw.

 

Yes, that was definitely a storm of silliness. And the worst could have been easily avoided by making it Moghedion's misguided plot. I think you (Luckers) posted ages back that it was likely Moghedion who was pulling Masema's strings, so the ToM Perrin arc could have been a continuation of that.

 

-- dwn

[Luckers]

[snip]

 

Ultimately, it's the frequent, trivial problems that make us more sensitive to the inevitable changes due to writing style--and that's too bad, because those problems should have been the easiest to correct.

 

-- dwn

 

Well said, and what's unfortunate about the part in bold is that you have to ask yourself, "If these are the parts he muffed that were easy to fix, then what glaring mistakes were made with the story itself, choosing directions and what not, will we never know about since it's not like RJ is around to ask?"

 

Graendal and Perrin ftw.

 

Yes, that was definitely a storm of silliness. And the worst could have been easily avoided by making it Moghedion's misguided plot. I think you (Luckers) posted ages back that it was likely Moghedion who was pulling Masema's strings, so the ToM Perrin arc could have been a continuation of that.

 

-- dwn

 

Yes. To be frank I think that should have been Moghedien's arc, and that as a result of it Moghedien's cour'souvra should have been broken. It would have served the point of showing the Shadow no longer put up with failure (though to be clear even for Moghedien that entire arc needed to be rewritten for some degree of relative intelligence in the antagonist). The Graeffalump did not serve that role, though it has tried.

[Terez]

Would you be willing to write a report on that signing, with everything you can remember? It doesn't matter if you can't remember everything; whatever you can remember would be awesome.

 

Terez - I'd be happy to. I was a kid then, and with my mom. I'll write up more later but I do remember the name of the place which Im 99% sure isn't there anymore, sadly. It was called ''Future Visions'' and it was in Houston, Texas. I said 91 earlier but I distinctly remember it being RIGHT when EOTW came out and buying it in hardcover there and getting it signed by RJ. The REASON we were there that day was because that was a favorite bookstore of ours and the owner had told us before on a prior visit about Jordan's ''Tour Stop'' there and that early word was that EOTW was AWESOME. So, Mom and I made a date of it.

 

I found a record of his TGH signing at the same store:

 

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/1990_739571/footnotes.html

 

Anyway, I put it in the database:

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=828

[Zewe]

I'd like to apologize for calling a number of you out in my posts in this thread. Upon reflection - most notably due to reminders of Mat's letter, "royalty" and "bloody ashes" - I realize that there are a number of things which I've found incredibly jarring scattered throughout the last two books, but have been able to overlook with minimal effort, while other things - such as Mat in his entirety - I've lamented, but gotten over because I've had to. Nonetheless, this thread is making me increasingly displeased with the turn this series has taken, when just yesterday I was perfectly fine with it. And until I've finished AMoL, I'd like to keep my former mindset intact. I've been with this wonderful series for the majority of my life, and its impact on my development as a person has been monumental - but I'm sure that's the case for almost everyone in this thread, so enough on that.

 

Conclusion: Apologies for the two long posts that basically equate to "shut up it's not that bad guys" - you're right, I'm wrong, but I'd really, really like to keep feeling the opposite for another few months, so I'll be leaving this thread.

 

Cheers!

[Terez]

That right there is an example of the significance of saturation level. (Incidentally a relatively untapped resource.)

[Maleshub]

You nailed it, Theodril.

 

Much can be forgiven. But not changing a character's main persona. One thing that drove me nuts was a part where Sanderson has Mat thinking to himself that he'd love to go and find a good battle or fight to jump into. Mat HATES fights. A man could get himsef DEAD in one of those! Or have his coat poked full of holes!

 

This is another example of Brandon misunderstanding the dichotomy of Mat's nature. May says one thing while he is doing another. But what Mat BELIEVES never truly changes. THAT is the contradiction Jordan established.

 

The way Brandon plays that contradiction/dichotomy however, is by changing what Mat BELIEVES and not just what he says or does. Big difference.

 

Under RJ, Mat will stand there and think how he would never have all the lace that fool Lords have on their coats while he is telling the tailor to add ''just a bit more'' lace. But he's still a stud. Just a stud that subconciously is starting to dig a bit of lace.

 

Sanderson has Mat get the lace AND begin acting like one of those fool Lords.

 

A lot of it is HOW he is doing things too. Mat, I mean.

 

I hate pointing this out because it bespeaks a difference in writing skill between the two. But, Mat used ''backstories'' under Jordan's pen and he also wrote a ''funny'' letter under RJ.

 

But look at the EXECUTION. The backstory and letter in COS was funny and subtle and well-handled...the letter in TOM still wakes me up in a cold sweat some nights and when I read Mat going ON AND ON like a child telling a lie in Chapter 11 of AMOL with ANOTHER ''cover story'' I honestly couldn't believe that Sanderson thought his version of the ''gag'' was still funny and still worked. Reading about 'the 'Zany Exploits' of 'Master Crimson'' makes me want to put my head through a window just to ease the pain.

 

 

Fish

 

Yeah, that is the case. Only a soldier, a veteran would know that fighting is a duty, not a hobby. A good a capable commander knows that fighting is the last resort, and only done when necessary no matter how frequently that happens. RJ lived it; Sanderson doesn't know about it. Rhuarc, a clan chief and battle leader, says that in TDR when Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene kill the Fades in the Cairhienin bandits camp:

 

 

For the young, death is an enemy they wish to try their strength against. For those of us a little older, she is an old friend, an old lover, but one we are not eager to meet again soon."

 

 

Even reading RJ's death scenes ... most notably Masema, you could tell the man has seen soldiers die. He's heard their last words, and saw their last expressions.

 

No literary expertise can reflect the real life experience RJ brought to the books. Brandon, irrelevant of how good he is, will never emulate RJ in those areas. That is why I feel that Team Jordan, especially the military expertise back up, share a significant chunk of Brandon's mishandling of Mat.

[Terez]

Um, pretty sure Brandon wrote Masema's death. Just saying.

[MarkDiLillo]

It seems like a lot of people like to make assumptions about RJ's experienced in war. It's important to remember that Vietnam was a gigantic operation and it is entirely possible he didn't experience the gritty terrors war first hand. Many people who were in Vietnam didn't.

[Terez]

He did; he's talked about it. Search 'vietnam' in the database. Better yet, search 'iceman'.

[Sid]

Interview: Nov 1st, 1994

 

Fast Forward Interview (Verbatim)

 

 

Fast Forward

 

One of the things I found particularly affecting in this latest book—I enjoy the major characters, I've followed the major characters through six volumes. But there are certain scenes that really strike me as being very real and very personal. For example, in the middle of the book, Mat—who has been sent on a particular mission by Rand—meets a young boy named Olver?

Robert Jordan

 

 

Uh-Huh.

Fast Forward

 

And their meeting, where as Mat is talking to him, Olver is showing him his possessions: his little cache of coins, the game his father has made for him, and his red hawk's feather and his turtle shell.

Robert Jordan

 

Um-Hum.

Fast Forward

 

That was a very personal moment, that was a very real, very human moment.

Robert Jordan

 

I try to make it so.

Fast Forward

 

Which you don't see a lot in some fantasy. That one, and Rand's looking into the face of one of the maidens after she has died protecting him from an attack. Memorizing her face and name because he has vowed to memorize the face and name of all the maidens who had sworn to give their lives to protect him. Let's talk about that scene in particular, I'm curious about it. You had two tours in Vietnam, you've had military experience, you're a graduate of The Citadel. Does something like that particularly come out of the people you've met in the military and the kinds of personalities you met in the military, do you draw any of that kind of thing from that?

Robert Jordan

 

Some of it. I suppose, actually, that particular thing came from the only time I was really shaken in combat in shooting at somebody, or shooting AT somebody. I had to, uh, I was shooting back at some people on a sampan and a woman came out and pulled up an AK-47, and I didn't hesitate about shooting her. But that stuck with me. I was raised in a very old-fashioned sort of way. You don't hurt women—you don't DO that. That's the one thing that stuck with me for a long, long time.

 

Edit: yeah, iceman is a better example. I hadn't read those.

[TootThatHorn]

I'd like to apologize for calling a number of you out in my posts in this thread. Upon reflection - most notably due to reminders of Mat's letter, "royalty" and "bloody ashes" - I realize that there are a number of things which I've found incredibly jarring scattered throughout the last two books, but have been able to overlook with minimal effort, while other things - such as Mat in his entirety - I've lamented, but gotten over because I've had to. Nonetheless, this thread is making me increasingly displeased with the turn this series has taken, when just yesterday I was perfectly fine with it. And until I've finished AMoL, I'd like to keep my former mindset intact. I've been with this wonderful series for the majority of my life, and its impact on my development as a person has been monumental - but I'm sure that's the case for almost everyone in this thread, so enough on that.

 

Conclusion: Apologies for the two long posts that basically equate to "shut up it's not that bad guys" - you're right, I'm wrong, but I'd really, really like to keep feeling the opposite for another few months, so I'll be leaving this thread.

 

Cheers!

 

I said in another thread, or maybe earlier in this one, that when I got tGS, before I opened it I told myself "It's not RJ writing it but it is his story. Be happy you still get to read it." And I am. It's just that to wait 20 years to read the end of this series, freaking out from long ago hearing that RJ had his condition, he still wrote, then passed away, that in itself was fairly emotional.

 

So to see the story taken over by another, I am grateful as a fan to see it through, but realistically more for his wife and Team Jordan for finishing it. Just as the author, to see these mistakes, have them pointed out to you, then repeat them, it's silly. I get the impression that Brandon is an impatient fanboy more than anything given that the first thing he did was read the ending. It would seem more logical to read where he is picking up, then proceed, he almost made himself reverse engineer the book and that doesn't sound right.

 

Ramble Ramble, the point I'm trying to make however is that when I have the book, I immerse myself as much as possible in to the story line. But when I'm not reading it, or when I'm on a discussion forum, the pressure cooker of despair is hot, and in order to make a good meal, it's gotta blow off some steam.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Yes, that was definitely a storm of silliness. And the worst could have been easily avoided by making it Moghedion's misguided plot. I think you (Luckers) posted ages back that it was likely Moghedion who was pulling Masema's strings, so the ToM Perrin arc could have been a continuation of that.

 

Ok, I'm new to this thread and I certainly have not researched the matter nearly as much as others on this site but I have to ask, is there any reason to believe that the Graendal/Perrin story arc was not what RJ' intended? Remember that just before RJ died he had a fireside chat with Harriet and some of the others of his inner circle during which he told them the rest of the story. It was also my understanding that this telling of the story was recorded. Granted Brandon certainly needed to flesh out the scenes quite a bit, but I would think based on this fireside chat that team Jordan would know if it was Grandael or Moghedion whom RJ intended to send Slayer after Perrin. Maybe you know something that I don't but I really see no reason to believe that the Graendal/Perrin arc was something that Brandon fabricated.

[The Fisher King]

Would you be willing to write a report on that signing, with everything you can remember? It doesn't matter if you can't remember everything; whatever you can remember would be awesome.

 

Terez - I'd be happy to. I was a kid then, and with my mom. I'll write up more later but I do remember the name of the place which Im 99% sure isn't there anymore, sadly. It was called ''Future Visions'' and it was in Houston, Texas. I said 91 earlier but I distinctly remember it being RIGHT when EOTW came out and buying it in hardcover there and getting it signed by RJ. The REASON we were there that day was because that was a favorite bookstore of ours and the owner had told us before on a prior visit about Jordan's ''Tour Stop'' there and that early word was that EOTW was AWESOME. So, Mom and I made a date of it.

 

I found a record of his TGH signing at the same store:

 

http://www.chron.com.../footnotes.html

 

Anyway, I put it in the database:

 

http://www.theorylan...vmain.php?i=828

 

Terez - VERY COOL about RJ and Future Visions! Brings back memories! :)

 

Also, do you (or Luckers, or ANYONE) know (or could find out) who wrote the majority of the scene in TOM depicting the duel with the Gholam? I'd really appreciate the info. To repost something I'd said earlier:

 

'Here is the thing I need to know. NEED to know. - The authorial citation on Chapter 16/19 and 22/23 and 31 (The Gholam Duel )in Towers of Midnight. I know (for a fact) what was written by who in almost every other major scene/chapter from TGS/TOM for almost every major character.I KNOW much more than most (because im a total research geek only and have SCOURED every interview Sanderson has ever done - AND Terez and Co's EXCELLENT 'Index'' lol) regarding the whole ''Who Wrote What'' and that 'argument' is total crud. maybe Ill post my extensive ''Who Wrote What'' Index sometime. I've avoided it out of respect to DM's desire to keep the focus on the story until AMOL is out but my trigger finger is getting itchy lol.''

 

 

Fish

[The Fisher King]

I'd like to apologize for calling a number of you out in my posts in this thread. Upon reflection - most notably due to reminders of Mat's letter, "royalty" and "bloody ashes" - I realize that there are a number of things which I've found incredibly jarring scattered throughout the last two books, but have been able to overlook with minimal effort, while other things - such as Mat in his entirety - I've lamented, but gotten over because I've had to. Nonetheless, this thread is making me increasingly displeased with the turn this series has taken, when just yesterday I was perfectly fine with it. And until I've finished AMoL, I'd like to keep my former mindset intact. I've been with this wonderful series for the majority of my life, and its impact on my development as a person has been monumental - but I'm sure that's the case for almost everyone in this thread, so enough on that.

 

Conclusion: Apologies for the two long posts that basically equate to "shut up it's not that bad guys" - you're right, I'm wrong, but I'd really, really like to keep feeling the opposite for another few months, so I'll be leaving this thread.

 

Cheers!

 

Dude - its ALL good! We all have our feelings about this series! :)

 

As someone whos been there since day one, my gut is telling me that AMOL will be better than TOM and probably NOT quite as tight as TGS. Make of that what we will when the time comes, I guess ;)

 

 

Fish

[Suttree]

Yes, that was definitely a storm of silliness. And the worst could have been easily avoided by making it Moghedion's misguided plot. I think you (Luckers) posted ages back that it was likely Moghedion who was pulling Masema's strings, so the ToM Perrin arc could have been a continuation of that.

 

Ok, I'm new to this thread and I certainly have not researched the matter nearly as much as others on this site but I have to ask, is there any reason to believe that the Graendal/Perrin story arc was not what RJ' intended? Remember that just before RJ died he had a fireside chat with Harriet and some of the others of his inner circle during which he told them the rest of the story. It was also my understanding that this telling of the story was recorded. Granted Brandon certainly needed to flesh out the scenes quite a bit, but I would think based on this fireside chat that team Jordan would know if it was Grandael or Moghedion whom RJ intended to send Slayer after Perrin. Maybe you know something that I don't but I really see no reason to believe that the Graendal/Perrin arc was something that Brandon fabricated.

 

The outline and notes were not necessarily that detailed. Sanderson had to make for more creative decisions than most people realize.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Leopoled - two that spring to mind for now are, one: When the ''Sulin Situation'' was discovered and Brandon hastened to adamantly decree that it was NOT a ''timeline error'' and there was a ''reason'' for this. He insinuated that it was a storyline reason and that it was possible within the story for her to be in two places at once. This led to much ''Sulin Is Dark theorizing...only, a bit later for Brandon to come back out and say that it was totally just a timeline error after all! No problem, totally understandable - but, then, why not just say so in the first place?

 

Secondly - there were also times when Brandon was telling fans something quite different than his own teammates were saying. I have come to secretly believe that in those cases he was being a stand up guy and protecting Harriet. Taking the bullet on something Harriet may have changed her mind about.

 

If more come to mind (and there are others). I'll post them.

 

 

Fish

 

Thanks for posting this, Fish. I remember Brandon's comments on Sulin and I also remember reading through ToM and waiting for the explanation that never came. So it was just an oversight after all.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Yes, that was definitely a storm of silliness. And the worst could have been easily avoided by making it Moghedion's misguided plot. I think you (Luckers) posted ages back that it was likely Moghedion who was pulling Masema's strings, so the ToM Perrin arc could have been a continuation of that.

 

Ok, I'm new to this thread and I certainly have not researched the matter nearly as much as others on this site but I have to ask, is there any reason to believe that the Graendal/Perrin story arc was not what RJ' intended? Remember that just before RJ died he had a fireside chat with Harriet and some of the others of his inner circle during which he told them the rest of the story. It was also my understanding that this telling of the story was recorded. Granted Brandon certainly needed to flesh out the scenes quite a bit, but I would think based on this fireside chat that team Jordan would know if it was Grandael or Moghedion whom RJ intended to send Slayer after Perrin. Maybe you know something that I don't but I really see no reason to believe that the Graendal/Perrin arc was something that Brandon fabricated.

 

The outline and notes were not necessarily that detailed. Sanderson had to make for more creative decisions than most people realize.

 

But were they so lacking in detail as to not say which Forsaken would go after Perrin? I really find it hard to believe that RJ would just say one of the Forsaken goes after Perrin and leave it at that, particularly when telling the story to his friends. You can criticize Brandon's execution of the storytelling if you need to, but can the decision to use Graendal, as opposed to Moghedion in this arc really be pinned on Brandon?

[The Fisher King]

Indeed, Sir.

 

 

Fish

[MarkDiLillo]

Wow ok apparently he was the real deal.