[Regimental Book Discussion] When Did Mat become "Great"? (tEotW - aCoS) )

[BFG]

In that case the fight against Galad and Gawyn doesn't count as being great - it showed how strong he is as a fighter, made the readers sit up and realise there's more to him than just a prankster, but if we're taking the first responsibility as being 'great' then it's either when he resolves to save the girls (from Rahvin) or when he goes to Rhuidean to accept his 'destiny'. Of the two I favor the latter, I don't think he thinks the first through - he doesn't know that he's going up against 2 Forsaken or the BA when he goes. When he enters the Stone he thinks he's going against AS, who he believes are oathbound not to kill him.

 

So my new vote is going to when he entered Rhuidean.

[WolfbrotherKronos]

In that case the fight against Galad and Gawyn doesn't count as being great - it showed how strong he is as a fighter, made the readers sit up and realise there's more to him than just a prankster, but if we're taking the first responsibility as being 'great' then it's either when he resolves to save the girls (from Rahvin) or when he goes to Rhuidean to accept his 'destiny'. Of the two I favor the latter, I don't think he thinks the first through - he doesn't know that he's going up against 2 Forsaken or the BA when he goes. When he enters the Stone he thinks he's going against AS, who he believes are oathbound not to kill him.

 

So my new vote is going to when he entered Rhuidean.

 

I would agree that is when he really begins to accept the path that he is destined to be on.

[Tyler Glembo]

I understand the premise of the question but to switch it up slightly, the point at which Mat became a really enjoyable character to me was right off the bat with the mention of a badger they had trapped and the pranks they were going to pull. I immediately liked him at that point.

 

As for greatness, I think the very first hint is during Rand and Mat's fleeing to Caemlyn, after Thom gives them a chance to escape the Fade. When Rand falls ill, Mat, even in his dagger-influenced-suspicious state, is there to protect Rand and help him through it. At that moment I felt that Mat had developed into an important character who would continue to grow and show depth throughout the series.

[Jeannaisais]

And yet, oftentimes when you see greatness occur with a character in a story, it's not by all the little things - it's by one major great thing. Perhaps blowing the Horn of Valere made him great, or perhaps entering Rhuidean made him great, but I seem to recall he was a bit reluctant to do so? Greatness usually means the decision has already been made and then they go and do it to show they are true to their words. Besides, being with Aiel is definitely a test of greatness and if they don't see you as great then you probably haven't reached it. At first, the Aiel see Mat as a nuissance and a gambler, until he starts doing things to help out. I just can't say that Mat was great from the get go - he annoyed me at first because it seemed like he wasn't taking anything seriously. I think the only reason he stayed with Rand was so he could convince Rand to go back home - not because he was great. But, i guess that's just me huh?

[BFG]

He stayed with Rand, because Rand was the only person he trusted (even a little), but there were a couple of points when it would have been easier to run, but he stayed anyway. The Aiel start to pay attention to him on the Stone, as they have some 'amusement' for his attempts to sneak about and more for surviving the short fight against them (even if he did lose).

 

The first thing that Mat chose to do is to 'adopt' Olver, but although it was kind and the 'right thing to do' it doesn't really seem great. I'm sticking with Rhuidean, he didn't want to go, but he went anyway (and to be fair, the other thing he wanted to do was head back to Two Rivers to help Perrin).

[Tyler Glembo]

The other point where I thought Mat was achieving greatness was when he said mentioned how he got his scar and said that he was "hanged for knowledge." (I don't remember the exact quote).

 

Up until then it was as though he didn't understand the world around him, nor was he the master of his own destiny. Rather, he focused on his own fun and trickster ways. At that point I noticed a more introspective side that began to be more prominent.

 

Still though, catching a badger = awesomeness. :-)

[BFG]

 

 

I like how Towers brings the boys full circle - especially with Mat and his badger

 

 

 

"I know too much now, but too little then. You could say I was hanged for knowledge."

 

quote may or may not be accurate - I just took itfrom someone's sig.

 

Think the quote you're looking for was in a pub (not narrowing it down much) when he's chasing a bar maid (...) called Betse, Betsy(?) and being out-talked by a girl (still not very distinguishing) on the way to Illian before Rand sends him after Powerpuff 3 (Elayne) (best I can do).

 

I'm trying to seperate his awsomeness from the greatness - which is why I discounted vs Galad and Gawyn. But the badger and the ghost hounds are some of my favorites

[Tyler Glembo]

Ah yes, I do remember that scene with the barmaid. He got a little tongue-tied and decided the thing to do was dance with her...very fun Mat scene

[goksekor]

I'd cast my vote with Cairhien, the starting of the Band.

 

He keeps saying he does not care, this is not his war, not his responsibility at least for the people he does not know. He tries to get away and he denies he is actually a good person. But when you see how he ends up in the middle of a war in Cairhien and although he tries to get away after every action, bit by bit he is sucked in and he CANT say he doesnt care any more, assumes responsibility, then ends up killing Couladin. I think that is when Mat became great.

 

Dont get me wrong, I liked Mat from the 1st book onwards but I think this is when he became great, not when he got all the knowledge of the past lifes but when he decided to use them for good.

[BFG]

^ Except it always seemed to me that it happened by accident. Mat seems to be trying to lead the Band away from the Battles, it's just that as 'son of battles' he can't avoid them. As such he wasn't looking for Couladin, or accepting responsibility at this stage - I'm pretty sure it's commented on that he volunteered to 'go scout' ie desert, except the Band always chased him and each time they found a battle.

 

The first time he accepts responsibility completely independently of anything else, is when he 'adopts' Olver. The first time he accepts his destiny (albeit extremely reluctantly) is when he chooses to enter Rhuidean, instead of returning to TR - I know that his own destiny/tavereness was doing its best to keep him there, but he could have gone if he'd really wanted to, and there was nothing that said he had to go into Rhuidean itself, other than his own acceptance of the fact that he had to.

 

I'm still voting entering Rhuidean.

[goksekor]

^ Except it always seemed to me that it happened by accident. Mat seems to be trying to lead the Band away from the Battles, it's just that as 'son of battles' he can't avoid them. As such he wasn't looking for Couladin, or accepting responsibility at this stage - I'm pretty sure it's commented on that he volunteered to 'go scout' ie desert, except the Band always chased him and each time they found a battle.

 

You are right actually, what I meant was even when he was trying to run, his taverennes happened and he finds without him the soldiers will be crushed. What I meant by responsibility is, he STILL can go and save himself but he stays and barely manages to survive in most cases but majority of his command survives as well. I dont remember the exact scene, but when he first met Daerid and the guys, they were about to be crushed but he could have gone his own way. He did not, his conscience didnt let him do that. He kept promising to himself after this time, he is going away, but he was sucked in to battle. And after each individual battle, he faced the same choice: Leave and let the band get crushed, or save them and he chose saving them every time. Thats what I tried to mean, but yeah you were right about battles finding him and he did not seek it (or Couladin for that matter)

[BFG]

*paints a yellow spiky hedgehog on Gokus back*

 

You're right, Mat did agree to lead the second pincer movement that saved Daerid, another example of his nature overcoming his commonsense (his thoughts on the matter).

 

So why don't you start when he went to rescue Elayne/Nyn/Eg? He knew he was breaking into an inpenetrable fortress, going up against High Lords, Guardsmen and Aes Sedai (who he knew the girls were scared of), he didn't know that Rand, Perrin, Moiraine, Aiel, multiple others were there to help. He did it because it was the right thing to do, knowing it may mean his death. I view the Cairhien battle and this as similar situations.

[goksekor]

*Sneaks a badger in BFGs tent*

 

The difference in those 2 cases is that he KNEW Nyn/Eg/Elayne personally. And in my opinion it is different than helping someone you dont know. You DO care if they die or not, there is no way that you can convince yourself that what they got was deserved (even for Mat) and we know he has a good heart, even if he tries not to show it. So by helping people he doesnt know, he faces a dilemma. He says he doesn't care but doesnt leave them to their certain deaths. So he does care. Maybe not enough to engage in a complete war from the very beginning (he'd probably think it flaming fooolish) but step by step he is drawn in, and he has to admit that he cares.

 

So guess there is that. Him taking the responsibility of people that he doesn't know, and managing some awesome stuff while doing so :)

[BFG]

*loosens pegs of Gokus tent, then blows*

 

I'll look for the quote later, but one reason he stays with the Band is that he believes it's safer for him to surround himself with soldiers all trying to keep him alive.

 

But well argued! If it wasn't for the fact that Rhuidean was earlier, I'd have changed my mind :P

[Jeannaisais]

I still don't think Rhuidean is where his greatness starts. Up until the moment they left for Rhuidean, Mat was gonna go back to the Two Towers. I seem to recall he had packed for it and had tried to leave with Perrin but something out of his control stopped him. Not to mention, he seemed to be awefully grumpy that whole time I can't see a grumpy person as being great. Just my fyi.

[BFG]

I won't argue that he wasn't reluctant or even grumpy - he kept getting side-tracked by small things - playing dice with the Tairen Lords, stones with Thom, a girl who 'liked a squeeze' When he reached the camp outside Rhuidean is where he made his own decision to go - Rand wasn't forcing him to stay close, indeed he seemed surprised that Mat wanted to go, although he backed him up, Mat accepted that his destiny was to go to Rhuidean and went.

 

I don't see being grumpy as excluding the chance of being great - as I said it's the first time he's shown even an inkling of accepting his destiny. I do think it's the decision to go that's more important than the outcome in terms of making him great, I also think it's this second decision that's the more important of the two.

[Tyler Glembo]

I think that greatness in WoT is less about accepting desitiny as it is about simply being a part of the pattern. I recall a discussion (I think between Rand and Mat and maybe Moiraine) where it is mentioned that by being ta'veren Mat and Rand's lives are already laid out for them. They now have the choice between fighting the direction their lives will take them or accepting it and even enjoying life. The implication is that as ta'veren they will live a life of great deeds no matter what their attitude.

 

So, maybe greatness depends on attitude, but if it is in action then the first time Mat truly did something noteworthy was upon leading the armies in the battle outside of Cairhein. Men followed him, swore that he never lost, he saved lives and spent lives, and he defeated the enemy commander in the biggest battle that had been seen for many, many years. Something to be written about in the histories, something to be sung about, something great.

[BFG]

Another great argument, but if we take Rand as an example...

 

spoilers for Rand (and some others) up until end of GS

 

 

Rand has done several great things, of which the most note-worthy is probably the cleansing, the first was arguably the Eye, the first he was in control of was *pauses to think a very long time* cleansing again.

Eye - luck

Falme - Mat/luck

Stone - Aiel

Pillars - none Aiel upbringing

Asmodeon - Asmodeaon

Rahvin - luck/Nyn(Moggy)

Sammael - Moridin

Cleansing - unequal three way split between Rand/Nyn/Cads (but no luck involved)

 

But none of that made him great - witness Cadsuane saying back in LoC/CoS(?) that if Rand won then then it would be almost as bad as the DO winning.  It wasn't until Dragonmount (the place, not here :) ) that he accepted the destiny willingly and found his own way to choose it.

 

 

 

 

I argue that this is what Mat did (or at the least started) by going to Rhuidean. 

 

Additionally the battle strength that he has at Cairhien is due to the foxes, and not an intrisic thing to him.  It's kind of like saying Perrins hammer makes him great, instead of the wolf thing. 

[Tyler Glembo]

Hmm...I do like your point, though maybe not for the reason you intended.  I don't agree it is necessarily Mat's acceptance of destiny as what makes him great, but if you consider greatness to be the point at which a character really takes the pattern into their own hands and does what they want with it rather than allowing the pattern (luck) to shape their actions then I like your point.  As in, the luck and being put in a situation versus the truly open choice when they aren't being forced by the pattern and doing something great then. 

 

Now I just have to think of an example for Mat when he wasn't being forced by the pattern to do something (or by Rand's ta'verenness) and still decided to be awesome. 

[BFG]

^That'll (probably) be the Stone.  Mat goes to rescue the Powerpuff girls, but has nothing to do with the Battle for the Stone beyond this.  I can't believe Rand had a Taveran effect on him here, as his destiny at the time was to take the Stone and Callandor, the most Mat could be said to have helped with this is that he killed/knocked out a few High Lords (who presumably would have interfered otherwise), but since half of Rands battle took place in TAR they wouldn't have affected this, and I can't believe the Aiel would have had any difficulties with them, so even saying Mat helped Rands destiny here is a stretch.

 

Releasing the girls also didn't change anything, they only caught the 2 BA that Eg had already caught in TAR, so the rest had fled.  The girls would have been released once the Stone was taken anyway, so no destiny twisting here - unless you want to go really far-fetched and say that he needed to rescue the girls so that they'd go and apologise and meet Setalle, and the Kin and find the Bowl, and he'd fight the gholam, and Olver would run off and he'd get trapped under the wall and meet and marry Tuon... *collapses, gasping for air*.  But since that's a stretch I'll go with his actions at the Stone not being accountable to tavereness or destiny and just due to Mat's awesome nature.

[Tyler Glembo]

That is more along the lines of what I am thinking, but I don't think it was "greatness." 

 

 

In the battle for the Stone Mat didn't really do much of anything useful that wouldn't have been done anyway.  Maybe when Mat got the work started on his Dragons in Caemlyn.  He also kills the gholam at this time which was pretty amazing.  He then follows that up with the rescue of Moiraine in the Tower of Ghenjei.  These I would say all are much greater acts not necessarily forced upon him.

 

[BFG]

^ Quick note - discussion is limited to CoS (thread title), anything after should go in spoiler brackets.

 

 

 

Dragons are definately destiny, Eg has several dreams of Mat creating them - Mat playing bowls where each bowl is thousands of people.  Moiraine is arguable fate as Eg has several dreams of that - Thom pulling a blue stone out of the fire, Mat placing his eye on some scales...  I'll leave you with the gholam tho :)

 

 

 

Leaving aside destiny/taveran really isn't going to leave you with much.  The Stone shows Mat's character and skill without the influence of taveran or fate pretty well, and demonstrates his character really nicely.  It's not earth-shattering compared to other things he does, but almost every other earth-shattering event can be linked to someone's destiny most of the time.