Aviendha's visions at the end of ToM

[Kara]

One of the hardest things to read, right? Must have been crushing for Aviendha...the way I read it, her line was directly responsible for the slow and torturous end of the proud Aiel people. Her children were given the decision to go to war or not and took it. Her grandchildren knowingly misled the Queen of Andor into declaring war and breaking the Dragon's peace.

How come she never considers not having children with Rand? I mean its not like she is already pregnant...I know it would be a sacrifice to not have children...but still...

[Sid]

This was a difficult thing to read, there's no doubt about that.

 

This was brought up over at Theoryland earlier, and someone there had a good point for why Avi not having children wouldn't change anything in the long run. They were not the ones that decided to go to war, really. The other clan chiefs had basically already decided to, and it was her kids that didn't stop it. If they were not there, the chiefs would have come to the same conclusion. Also, the PoV before that, Oncala, wasn't the person who came up with the idea of using the Seanchan's contingency plans to get the others in the war, it was the man she planned to marry, Hehyal. (not a huge fan of that name, btw.) Oncala went along with Hehyal's plan, but had she not been born, Hehyal or someone like him very likely would have eventually tried a similar tactic. So essentially, the problem isn't that she had children, it's that the Aiel as people were purposeless and lost, which is what she must correct somehow in order to save them.

[herid]

I find the Oncala scene one of the best in TOM precisely because of the clever misdirection of guilt. The reader hates Oncala for the despicable human being that she is but she is actually little more than a bystander in the whole scene. She keeps her mouth firmly shut throughout the entire negotiations with Talana, and we learn that Hehyal was the one who came up with the plan to trick Talana, stole the plans from the Seanchan, did all the talking with Talana and was actually trying to involve the Andorans in the war for years. Yet the reader assigns most if not all the blame for what happens to Oncala because it's her POV and she is so clearly wicked.

[spoke]

upon doing my re-read after the TOM came out, I noticed much reference or foreshadowing in the Aiel prophecies as to how if they fought the Aes Sedai they would be destroyed. Consider this being a few thousand year old prophecy and it isn't a reference to the Aes Sedai, but the Seanchan. It is quite interesting Re-reading TGH, TDR and TSR. They all touch on it to some degree but it isn't shown until TOM.

[Rasmus Nielsen]

The Seanchan will at this point have Aes Sedai Damane, thus if they fight the Seanchan, they will be fighting Aes Sedai.

[Kara]

Hmmmm, interesting, I can buy that. So Aviendha has to figure out how to guide the Aeil into a better future and teach her children to be better people and leaders.

 

Have there been discussions on what the possible purpose of the Aiel could be after the Last Battle? It seems that in the future that Aviendha saw, the Seanchan are allowed to keep some of the lands they currently occupy as well as the abhorant system of keeping damanes. If Rand/Egwene/Nynaeve...SOMEONE could at least get back the captured damane maybe the Aiel would be content to form their own nation, perhaps centered around Rhuidien.

 

I know that it would be hard because the Aiel traditionaly had no cities and constanly raided each others holds, but going back to the old ways just will not be an option anymore. It will be an adapt or die situation for them.

[herid]

LOTs of discussions on the subject. Just look around. there are several recent active threads already. There are multiple strong indications that the Aiel have to adapt and change their warlike culture: The Aiel prophecies, the stuff that the Green man said, Nakomi and of course Avi's visions which hammer that point rather hard.

Check out this link too.

[Whizbang]

I always assumed that the "remnant of a remnant" would be the gai'shan, returning them to the Way of the Leaf. I was a little surprised by Avi's vision, to see that not only did the warriors survive, but their society was more or less intact after the LB. I thought that essentially the Aiel would be wiped out, save for those currently serving as gai'shan, who would not go into battle. Avi's vision pretty much ignores the "Remnant of a remnant" prophecy.

[herid]

@Whizbang This has been discussed too. some people suggest that the Aiel captives of the Seanchan are the remnant of the remnant in the visions. Some suggest the Shaido. None quite fit IMO as it's hard to argue that any of those groups are saved by Rand. But what you also have to keep in mind is that Avi's vision describe an alternate future which won't really happen and it would be very hard to come up with a plausible scenario for that where ALL the prophecies, visions, foretellings and so on intended for the main timeline hold. There are some other problematic ones I think like the Jendai prophecy that the Sea Folk will control all the seas of the world.

[Kara]

@Herid, thanks for the link! Good stuff.

[muddasssir]

Actuallu I beg to disagree. You see it fits perfectly with remnant of rmnant theory. What we have seen is the AVi's line reaching the end and dying out horribly. It had nothing to do with rest of Aiel. Plus I always thought remnant of remnant will be the people who will return to the way of leaf. Others will be destroyed. At the advwnt of second age they would have covenant writtn in their bones. They would have no memory of voilenc or having drawn weapon in their past. it means that they have to return to covenant by sith age as this is going to be the start of the fourth age. They will fight and lose fifth age will only see people who has sworn the covenant maybe end of channeling and sixth age will be modrn technology no that will probably be seventh age sixth will be pre-technology era by then they would have forgottn all about their martiaal past and hence the age long past age yet to be symbolism comes into play.