The Guardians balance the Servants

[Suttree]

In tPoD Egwene highlighted the AS belief that the only law that matters to AS is Tower Law. They should be able to do whatever they want however they want and be able to demand what ever they want. They have, as an institution, become bullies.

 

Uhhm what? Can you provide a quote please because I don't recall anyting like that. In fact Egwene has called AS fools and said they must change how they have operated or they will become "tyrants". She is in essence doing the exact opposite of what you claim.

[shortkut]

In tPoD Egwene highlighted the AS belief that the only law that matters to AS is Tower Law. They should be able to do whatever they want however they want and be able to demand what ever they want. They have, as an institution, become bullies.

 

Uhhm what? Can you provide a quote please because I don't recall anyting like that. In fact Egwene has called AS fools and said they must change how they have operated or they will become "tyrants". She is in essence doing the exact opposite of what you claim.

he was talking about upto when eggy took power. Had he been wrong, eggy would not have to change anything.

[Suttree]

In tPoD Egwene highlighted the AS belief that the only law that matters to AS is Tower Law. They should be able to do whatever they want however they want and be able to demand what ever they want. They have, as an institution, become bullies.

 

Uhhm what? Can you provide a quote please because I don't recall anyting like that. In fact Egwene has called AS fools and said they must change how they have operated or they will become "tyrants". She is in essence doing the exact opposite of what you claim.

he was talking about upto when eggy took power. Had he been wrong, eggy would not have to change anything.

 

Ahh ok, thanks short.

[shortkut]

In tPoD Egwene highlighted the AS belief that the only law that matters to AS is Tower Law. They should be able to do whatever they want however they want and be able to demand what ever they want. They have, as an institution, become bullies.

 

Uhhm what? Can you provide a quote please because I don't recall anyting like that. In fact Egwene has called AS fools and said they must change how they have operated or they will become "tyrants". She is in essence doing the exact opposite of what you claim.

he was talking about upto when eggy took power. Had he been wrong, eggy would not have to change anything.

 

Ahh ok, thanks short.

no problem. Just my best guess at what he meant

[b3arz3rg3r]

Again with this debate. Isn't it obvious that the Aes Sedai aren't very good at battles because they just aren't trained for them? The Asha'man have developed tactics and strategies for hundreds of channellers fighting together and the Damane have been drilled to fight as part of an army for years. Both Asha'man and Damane know weaves which are far better suited to large scale destruction and killing the most enemies in the shortest amount of time. The Aes Sedai have far more experience at channelling as a whole, but as it was said in the prologue I believe they just have never operated as part of a large army. They have always done their own thing. And just like in a battle an army of blademasters who only fight alone would still lose to an army of disciplined regular soldiers who fight together so would an army of Aes Sedai fare against an army of Asha'man or damane.

And it would probably be even worse if armies of regular soldiers are involved. Neither Asha'man nor Damane have any problems following the orders of non-channellers from what we have seen same can't be said of the Aes Sedai. They have it ingrained into their minds that they are superior to normal people and that's a hard habit to get rid of. I predict a large part of Egwene's troubles in AMOL will be to get the Aes Sedai to do as they are told and not have them start interpreting things as they themselves wish to.

[Suttree]

They have always done their own thing. And just like in a battle an army of blademasters who only fight alone would still lose to an army of disciplined regular soldiers who fight together so would an army of Aes Sedai fare against an army of Asha'man or damane.

 

What do you mean? Their battle tactics were passed down from when they were Generals in the Trolloc Wars. Their strategies succesfully integrated channelers into banners of regular soldiers at a time when military arts were said to be at their height. Those are the same tactics that will likely be implemented to some extent at TG and as an aside you skirt the issues of circles completley. Again we will see soon however, if your stance is true they will be shredded by Dreadlords in the Last Battle.

[shortkut]

Sutt, do we have evidence of them practicing these tactics? We know some go to the blight, but individual tactics are different than group an wartime tactics

[BFG]

Again with this debate. Isn't it obvious that the Aes Sedai aren't very good at battles because they just aren't trained for them? The Asha'man have developed tactics and strategies for hundreds of channellers fighting together and the Damane have been drilled to fight as part of an army for years. Both Asha'man and Damane know weaves which are far better suited to large scale destruction and killing the most enemies in the shortest amount of time. The Aes Sedai have far more experience at channelling as a whole, but as it was said in the prologue I believe they just have never operated as part of a large army. They have always done their own thing. And just like in a battle an army of blademasters who only fight alone would still lose to an army of disciplined regular soldiers who fight together so would an army of Aes Sedai fare against an army of Asha'man or damane.

And it would probably be even worse if armies of regular soldiers are involved. Neither Asha'man nor Damane have any problems following the orders of non-channellers from what we have seen same can't be said of the Aes Sedai. They have it ingrained into their minds that they are superior to normal people and that's a hard habit to get rid of. I predict a large part of Egwene's troubles in AMOL will be to get the Aes Sedai to do as they are told and not have them start interpreting things as they themselves wish to.

 

Although I agree in general that the Ashaman and Damane are more effective in general at battle (experience/training). At Dumai Wells 33 AS take on 100(?) Wise Ones successfully, until the Ashaman intervene.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

Although I agree in general that the Ashaman and Damane are more effective in general at battle (experience/training). At Dumai Wells 33 AS take on 100(?) Wise Ones successfully, until the Ashaman intervene.

 

Just one thing, the Wise Ones had NEVER gone into battle before. They made a big deal about it. So they are less experienced in OP war as the Aes Sedai.

[BFG]

Although I agree in general that the Ashaman and Damane are more effective in general at battle (experience/training). At Dumai Wells 33 AS take on 100(?) Wise Ones successfully, until the Ashaman intervene.

 

Just one thing, the Wise Ones had NEVER gone into battle before. They made a big deal about it. So they are less experienced in OP war as the Aes Sedai.

 

I didn't mean to imply otherwise, but taking experience of power vs. power battles then the order has to be (at least for now) Damane, Ashaman, Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Sea Folk :)

 

Placed SF last as they have the most difficulty with fire and earth weaves, which Iimagine to be the most commonly used in widespread battle (and not just because they... annoy... me). The Wise Ones (as you said) have no experience with battle, but can make fireballs. The Aes Sedai have experience against non-channelers, rogue individual channelers (even with Logain, he was the only one in his army that could channel), shadowspawn - which gives them considerable advantages over both the SF and WO, but little experience in widespread 'power' battle. If nothing else the Ashaman have the Damona Campaign, the Damane have the Damona Campaign and rebellions back in Seanchan. Additionally the information sharing of the Wise Ones, Damane and Ashaman (away from Taim) give them an advantage over the AS (at least pre reunification), not sure on info sharing among WF.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I don't know about the Sea Folk, they were pretty good when they fought the Seanchan and escaped. But yeah, pretty much agree with the list except the Wise Ones and Sea Folk I am not sure on.

[BFG]

*screws up forehead and tries to think*

 

The only time I can remember hearing a WF escape a Seanchan was that first WF that met Elayne/Nyn (took them from Tear) who was exptremely proud that she'd managed to start a fire on the Seanchan boat. She was proud because she said that WF find fire (and I think earth) very difficult to work with.

 

They'll also of course be able to use shields, but not sure how usual that is in a big battle.

 

Other than that, there was presumably a WF escape when Mat released them from the a'dam - but I don't classify that the same as a big battle (Damona scale).

 

The fact that 33 AS beat 100(?) WO means I think the AS, for the moment, have to be higher. SF are my least certain of the placements, we've never really seen them fight onscreen (that I can remember) to get a comparison from.

[TristanWebb]

They sunk a lot of boats during the escape from Ebou Dar, but that was surprise and the middle of the night and just trying to cause damage. They didn't learn to use shields until Nyn and Elayne started teaching per WH. Battle wise they don't seem to have any talent, mostly because they were trying to hide from the AS.

[Morden]

They are however very good with air. Fireballs and Lightning might be flashy, but if someone drops a mountain of air on you, a tornado or just flat out sucks all the air away from you, your still just as dead.

 

Fire and Earth are what men are strongest at. Air and Water for Women, it always made me wonder why the Seanchan use so much fire and earth, but then again they've only been up against men once and they got fought to a stalemate against half trained boys.

 

On the whole the level of abilities we see from almost all the channelers seem trivial compared with what Rand and some of the forsaken seem to do. Take the Asmodean vs Rand fight, Asmodean leaves little traps made from tiny strands of metal sharp enough to cut Rand into pieces if he ran though them. Or Rand and his efforts against the Shadowspawn army.

 

The seanchan may be good, but they're like Asha'man they have very limited finesse, not to mention the extra heartbeat or two it takes the sul'dam to tell the damane what to do..

[BFG]

They are however very good with air. Fireballs and Lightning might be flashy, but if someone drops a mountain of air on you, a tornado or just flat out sucks all the air away from you, your still just as dead.

 

Fire and Earth are what men are strongest at. Air and Water for Women, it always made me wonder why the Seanchan use so much fire and earth, but then again they've only been up against men once and they got fought to a stalemate against half trained boys.

 

On the whole the level of abilities we see from almost all the channelers seem trivial compared with what Rand and some of the forsaken seem to do. Take the Asmodean vs Rand fight, Asmodean leaves little traps made from tiny strands of metal sharp enough to cut Rand into pieces if he ran though them. Or Rand and his efforts against the Shadowspawn army.

 

The seanchan may be good, but they're like Asha'man they have very limited finesse, not to mention the extra heartbeat or two it takes the sul'dam to tell the damane what to do..

 

Yup -

 

Rand/Forsaken >> Damane >/ Ashaman > Aes Sedai > Wise Ones > Sea Folk

 

The sea-folk are great with air and water, but I would think it's harder to use those in battle (as evidenced by the fact that those who are strongest and have the most experience in battle don't use them (except Rahvin in TAR - but that's not really a use of the Power). The way the sea folk use air so far has been either slow to start (bowl of winds) or localised in area (strengthening winds around ship). The use of wind in a large scale is going to be problematic in a large battle as it will effect your guys as well as theirs.

 

In a different thread someone said that they could start a tsunami at sea - but I wouldn't have thought any of them would have the power to move that much water, or the strength in Earth to start the earthquake...

 

It would be interesting to see how strong their shields would be, I assume that's mostly air?

[Pinzarn]

Rand/Forsaken >> Damane >/ Ashaman > Aes Sedai > Wise Ones > Sea Folk

 

 

I would change that a bit...

 

Dragon/Forsaken >> Suldam + Damane > Asha'men > Aes Sedai > Wise Ones > Sea Folk >> Released Damane*

 

*yes, there are some exceptions to the released damane, but for the most part they curl up in a ball and wail.

[MasterAblar]

I agree they don't have experience dealing with armies of channelers. Only the damane have that, though its unclear to what extent. The damane clearly have fought other armies with damane, but I don't see evidence for them entering one on one duels much either (especially based on the PoD battle between Rand's forces and the Seanchan). Even with the damane, this experience is only true of the older ones who were around for the last parts of the consolidation centuries ago. The others faced nothing like this. In fact, we even have a quote where we're told it had been many centuries since a battle was seen in the Seanchan with a few hundred damane on each side. Need to find that one.

 

Well, I would think that it's the suldam's experience that would matter more than the damane, since they're the one's who are in control.

 

There wouldn't really be any duels in large scale battles. It would be much more similar to Dumai's Wells, where the two groups throw destruction at each other. The difference I see is that the damane have more experience with just plain obliterating things. There may not have been battles with hundreds of damane on each side for a long time but Karede does mention that he has been in battles where both sides had damane. With all the rebellions going on in Seanchan, I would assume that the damane have quite a bit of experience. In the case of duels I would actually say the Aes Sedai have the advantage since you can get a little more creative in that case.

 

From what I remember of Sevanna's PoV, the Asha'man appear before she hears the booming sound from the Aes Sedai camp (the booming sound is Rand escaping from his box).

 

No they appear slightly after. Well, actually that's when Sevanna notices their arrival. But in any case we don't know how long the Aes Sedai held off the Asha'man, since the Asha'man had plenty of Shaido to work their way through before reaching the Aes Sedai, or how many Aes Sedai Rand took out.

 

The Cleansing is an excellent example, because it was a case where the danger could have come from any side, but circles were used effectively anyway. The creation of circles to deal with the bubble of evil in Salidar is another. In both cases, danger could come from anywhere. In both cases, the channelers used a major advantage of circles: you can feel what the other circle members feel. Anaiaya just asked her circle members to sing out if they saw anything that needed to be dealt with, and this strategy worked in an environment that is <i>more</i> chaotic than a battle.

 

The danger could have come from any side but it never did. No circle ever had to deal with Greandal in front, and Cyndane behind.

 

As for attacks from behind, circles can be arranged to prevent that. Have the "attack" circles of 13 sisters protected from behind by smaller circles (say of 3-4). These will face the opposite direction. Now, anyone can Travel into any location they like, they're still not going to be able to initiate a surprise attack. Will such a unit be very mobile? No. Does it need to be? Also no, since circles have extended ranges of attack compared to individual channelers.

 

The problem with your analysis is that you think circles will be in the thick of battles, among the soldiers. I see no reason for that. As we see with Cadsuane's strategy in WH, what you do is have weaker circles to screen the perimeter, while having a central node point from which you launch powerful attacks, and where you maintain the strongest defense. Lacking Cadsuane's ornaments, you need surprisingly little alteration. If the aim is to defend a location from enemy attack, simply use wards around the area, and attack in the direction they're triggered. If the aim is to attack, open a gateway at a distance beyond the enemies range, then start pounding away using your superior range. As the enemy comes poring around using Gateways, follow the strategy I outlined above where you have smaller circles protecting the larger ones.

 

I repeat again, barring a surprise attack, a circle is always going to trump an equal number of individual channelers.

 

The thing is if the circle of 13 is so far away from the front lines, their attacks will take far longer to reach the soldiers, giving the opposing channellers more time to react. And what is more who protects the soldiers? We saw this both at Dumai's Wells and at Malden where the Shaido Wise One's were always farther from the front lines, and as such not only were their attacks far less effective, but they were unable defend their own troops. Not only that but because you have only one person weaving they can only send so many attacks at once, whereas the Seanchan will be ables to send 13 times more. I would much rather deal with one big attack than 13 small ones. It's pretty much a given that one of the 13 will get through, whereas the big attack, if it can't be stopped entirely, can at least be minimized. No matter how much power the circle gives, the person leading it is only human, with only one brain and 2 eyes, and since we're speaking of Aes Sedai who love to waive their hands, only two hands. She can only react to so much. The twelve Aes Sedai she's linked with are worth no more than angreal, except you have to protect them. Since a circle of 13 is powerful, the enemy will never try to attack it head on. That would just be playing to it's strengths. Instead focus on the regular soldiers, who will have less channellers protecting them, since so many are being used by the circles. Any channeller being used up by the circle of 13 or the circles protecting it, is a channeller who is out of the equation.

 

In a defensive battle, I agree that circles of 13 are a huge advantage. But in an offensive battle where the circle would have to go to the enemy, it's far more risky. And of course you have to take into consideration whether regular soldiers are participating or not. If there are, then the Aes Sedai will have less channellers protecting their troops. If there aren't than the damane have no need to protect theirs and can spread out playing to the cirlcle of 13's weakness.

 

Now of course, having the option of forming circles is an advantage, but they won't be the answer to every situation.

[Suttree]

The danger could have come from any side but it never did. No circle ever had to deal with Greandal in front, and Cyndane behind.

 

I'll have to go back and reread MA but I'm pretty sure at one point they are pointing out different directions to attack in rapid succession...

[MasterAblar]

The danger could have come from any side but it never did. No circle ever had to deal with Greandal in front, and Cyndane behind.

 

I'll have to go back and reread MA but I'm pretty sure at one point they are pointing out different directions to attack in rapid succession...

 

I think I see what you mean. Cadsuane points out different directions for the Callandor circle. But that circle never had to deal with the Forsaken attacking it since the only Forsaken who got close enough to attack it directly was Osangar and he didn't even know they were there. The Callandor circle only attacked it never defended. The Forsaken sent some attacks at Rand and Nyneave but these were stopped by Cadsuane's shield, and all they ever sent was lightning I believe. They were never close enough to attack directly, they could only send attacks in Rand's general direction.

 

I was speaking more of the 3 other circles that patrolled around Rand's position. Not one of those ever had one Forsaken attack from the front and another from behind. They only dealt with one enemy at a time, which of course plays to a circle's strenghts.

[XoMeltdownoX]

The danger could have come from any side but it never did. No circle ever had to deal with Greandal in front, and Cyndane behind.

 

I'll have to go back and reread MA but I'm pretty sure at one point they are pointing out different directions to attack in rapid succession...

The FS were randomly dispersed, but they did not coordinate their attacks. In fact they did not really mount much of an attack as they were constantly running or sneaking away from the defensive barrage directed by Cadsuane. Cadsuane laid out an excellent defence. This could have been countered if the FS had worked together under Demy's leadership.

[MasterAblar]

The danger could have come from any side but it never did. No circle ever had to deal with Greandal in front, and Cyndane behind.

 

I'll have to go back and reread MA but I'm pretty sure at one point they are pointing out different directions to attack in rapid succession...

The FS were randomly dispersed, but they did not coordinate their attacks. In fact they did not really mount much of an attack as they were constantly running or sneaking away from the defensive barrage directed by Cadsuane. Cadsuane laid out an excellent defence. This could have been countered if the FS had worked together under Demy's leadership.

 

Exactly, they all did their own thing instead of working together, which is something I believe RJ pointed out as one of the reasons they failed.

[XXX]

They have always done their own thing. And just like in a battle an army of blademasters who only fight alone would still lose to an army of disciplined regular soldiers who fight together so would an army of Aes Sedai fare against an army of Asha'man or damane.

 

What do you mean? Their battle tactics were passed down from when they were Generals in the Trolloc Wars. Their strategies succesfully integrated channelers into banners of regular soldiers at a time when military arts were said to be at their height. Those are the same tactics that will likely be implemented to some extent at TG and as an aside you skirt the issues of circles completley. Again we will see soon however, if your stance is true they will be shredded by Dreadlords in the Last Battle.

 

Battle tactics have to be practiced,and continuously drilled along with an army for it to be efficient. AFAIK there has not been a single mention of any AS conducting drills with any army in any of the 13 books(maybe the ones with Rand have been practicing with the Aiel).

 

Even Egwene rebel AS never practiced with their army on the way to TV for a potential battle involving OP users which I found rather strange.

 

Also as someone pointed out will the AS do what the Generals tell them to do like the Ashaman and Damane or will they try to take charge? It should be fun seeing how the AS fight in armies in AMOL.

[Suttree]

Also as someone pointed out will the AS do what the Generals tell them to do like the Ashaman and Damane or will they try to take charge? It should be fun seeing how the AS fight in armies in AMOL.

 

Not sure how you think the Generals will know how to best incorporate channelers? It hasnt been done sice the trolloc Wars and the AS are the onl ones with that knowlede. Surely it will need to be a collaborative effort in terms of tactics.

[MasterAblar]

Also as someone pointed out will the AS do what the Generals tell them to do like the Ashaman and Damane or will they try to take charge? It should be fun seeing how the AS fight in armies in AMOL.

 

Not sure how you think the Generals will know how to best incorporate channelers? It hasnt been done sice the trolloc Wars and the AS are the onl ones with that knowlede. Surely it will need to be a collaborative effort in terms of tactics.

 

Well Bashere and Ituralde at least have both had experience with using channellers in battle. It's not like all Aes Sedai are experts in military strategy either. I expect the top greens will have their part to say, but ultimately there's a reason the great captains are great captains. You give them a shiny new toy, they'll quickly learn how to use it to deadly effect, probably better than anybody else. And if nothing else the Aes Sedai will be needed as channellers first, and leaders second in my opinion. Most of the Aes Sedai that is.

[Suttree]

Also as someone pointed out will the AS do what the Generals tell them to do like the Ashaman and Damane or will they try to take charge? It should be fun seeing how the AS fight in armies in AMOL.

 

Not sure how you think the Generals will know how to best incorporate channelers? It hasnt been done sice the trolloc Wars and the AS are the onl ones with that knowlede. Surely it will need to be a collaborative effort in terms of tactics.

 

Well Bashere and Ituralde at least have both had experience with using channellers in battle. It's not like all Aes Sedai are experts in military strategy either. I expect the top greens will have their part to say, but ultimately there's a reason the great captains are great captains. You give them a shiny new toy, they'll quickly learn how to use it to deadly effect, probably better than anybody else. And if nothing else the Aes Sedai will be needed as channellers first, and leaders second in my opinion. Most of the Aes Sedai that is.

 

Oh no doubt the great captains are on their own level and I'm sure Ituralde and Bashere have gotten some great experience. That doesn't change the fact that your average Green has far greater knowledge than most military personnel(in terms of tactics relating to incorporating channelers into banners) passed down from when the arts were at their height. Recall that Mat was impressed with Joline and I hardly think she would be the exception. They certainly know for more about it from a strategy perspective than someone who has tried it for the first time in a single campaign.