The Guardians balance the Servants

[mdnyttokr]

Do you ever think about the phrase "the guardians balance the servants" from Nicola's Foretelling? I think this statement has HUGE implications for the state of the world after the Last Battle. I'm going to draw a parallel to Star Wars here, so bear with me.

 

In the Star Wars series, Qui-Gon and Yoda and Mace Windu all said something about Anakin being the one who will "bring balance to the force." But in the end, the balance he brought was to kill off all the Jedi until their numbers matched the Sith's numbers.. 2 of them each. For a long time, Obi-Wan and Yoda were the only surviving Jedi, to balance Palpatine and Vader. Until Luke came of age, then Obi-Wan was killed by Vader/Anakin, and once again there were only 2 on each side due to Vader's "balancing." The balance that Anakin brought to the force was not a "good" kind of balance, if you were a Jedi.

 

So I'm left wondering if "the guardians balance the servants" could mean something similar. I'm assuming that "servants" refers to Aes Sedai, and "guardians" refers to Asha'man. That in the end, when the battle is done, there will be roughly equal numbers of each, which is REALLY bad for the Aes Sedai.

 

An Asha'man that's been turned is certainly no longer a "guardian" of anything. So I'm saying that the only TRUE Asha'man (Guardians) are those loyal to Logain and Rand and Androl. And there are currently WAY MORE Aes Sedai than there are good Asha'man. We know the Aes Sedai are going to fight, and it makes sense that a great many of them will die. Plus, it's also possible that more will be taken as damane by the Seanchan. And some of the good Asha'man will also die.

 

What I'm theorizing is that, based on this, there will only be a handful of Asha'man and Aes Sedai left in the world after the Last Battle. Maybe a few hundred on each side, or less. Maybe one-hundred, since that's a number that's had significance for WoT channelers attacking Shayol Ghul. The rest will be either dead or taken as damane.

 

Thoughts?

[BFG]

Interesting parallel, but I always thought Vader brought balance to the force when he killed Palpatine at the end

*debates whether that should so in spoiler brackets, shrugs*

 

I'm going to let others play the numbers game, as I can't remember enough, but before Egs recruitment drive it sounds like there were roughly similar numbers of Ashaman + Ashaman in training as there were AS and AS in training, and probably similar numbers of DF in each. Egs recruitment throws that out tho.

 

I think it was actually 113 channelers that attacked SG first time round.

[Wool-headed lummox]

The prophecy about bringing balance to the Force is prequel nonsense George Lucas made up on the fly for the sake of turning Anakin into some kind of messianic figure. It didn't exist when the original trilogy was shot, and is really a shoddy and dubious invention at best.

 

Star Wars prequel films often remind me of the worst aspects of WoT.

[ozimandias]

My opinion on this is the foreshadowing of Aes Sedai and the one power going away in a future age. The Guardian being the thing that blocks the One Power in Far Madding. When the Seanchan take over, they will eventually learn how to replicate the Guardian (perhaps with greater understanding of Mat's Foxhead medallion), and they will end access to the One Power until the next Age of Legends. Also, in one of the books we see leashes involved in the structure of the Guardian in far madding, which always immediately made me think of some connection to Seanchan.

 

Aes Sedai refer to both men AND women... at least historically. And they are of course the Servants of All. So the Guardians will balance out Aes Sedai, making them no different from anyone else.

 

"The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." So clearly it is about the time after the last battle and the continuing fight with the Seanchan Return... to me the only way to balance out aes sedai would be to eliminate their access to the one power. What way do we know that can be done? The Guardian. So perhaps Far Madding will be attacked when Rand brings all the armies that were protecting to the FoM and the Seanchan will be taking it?

[MasterAblar]

An Asha'man that's been turned is certainly no longer a "guardian" of anything. So I'm saying that the only TRUE Asha'man (Guardians) are those loyal to Logain and Rand and Androl. And there are currently WAY MORE Aes Sedai than there are good Asha'man. We know the Aes Sedai are going to fight, and it makes sense that a great many of them will die. Plus, it's also possible that more will be taken as damane by the Seanchan. And some of the good Asha'man will also die.

 

There should actually be at least a thousand Asha'man by the beginning of aMoL, darkfriends included. And there were a thousand Aes Sedai at the beginning of tEotW. There were 500 Asha'man by the prologue of WH, and that's a little less than half-way between when Taim began training the Asha'man, and aMoL. Condering the rate of recruitemen should have gone up, there should be at least a thousand. It also fit with the rate of recruitement we're given in tPoD, which is 3 to 4 per day. A little more than 20% of Aes Sedai turned out to be black ajah, and then you have a fair number who have either been killed (at least 120), captured by the Seanchan, by the Asha'man, and by Rand. This should give you a good idea of their numbers. Even if everyone returns all Aes Sedai to the WT, their numbers (not including accepted and novices of course) should actually be lower than the total number of Asha'man (not counting darkfriends, but including Dedicated and Soldiers). The number of Asha'man who are darkfriends or who have been turned is hard to estimate. However there are 100 men with Taim by the end KoD. I can't see there being more than 200 maximum. This would actually make things balanced between the White and Black Towers.

 

Now of course if you add in the number of Accepted and Novices, the WT outnumbers the BT. By how much I don't know. I forget how many novices Egwene picked up going through Altara and Murandy.

 

I'm going to let others play the numbers game, as I can't remember enough, but before Egs recruitment drive it sounds like there were roughly similar numbers of Ashaman + Ashaman in training as there were AS and AS in training, and probably similar numbers of DF in each.

 

More or less, yeah. The number of Darkfriends are harder to estimate, because the situation at the BT is unclear. There were around 210-220 Black Ajah. That's been reduced to less than 150, which makes it more likely that there are an equal number of darkfriend Asha'man, including all turned channellers.

 

I think it was actually 113 channelers that attacked SG first time round.

 

Yes

[MasterAblar]

Aes Sedai refer to both men AND women... at least historically. And they are of course the Servants of All. So the Guardians will balance out Aes Sedai, making them no different from anyone else.

 

In the Age of Legends certainly, but in other ages who knows. Perhaps in some ages only men are Aes Sedai, and in others only women. All we know is that they will both be Aes Sedai in the Second Age, the Age of Legends.

[Suttree]

There should actually be at least a thousand Asha'man by the beginning of aMoL, darkfriends included. And there were a thousand Aes Sedai at the beginning of tEotW.

 

When we were discussing this a bit back didn't we come up with around 1,200 as of NS?

[MasterAblar]

There should actually be at least a thousand Asha'man by the beginning of aMoL, darkfriends included. And there were a thousand Aes Sedai at the beginning of tEotW.

 

When we were discussing this a bit back didn't we come up with around 1,200 as of NS?

 

Yeah, and that made me look things up a little, and as it turns out, both Taim, and, more importantly, Egwene, claim the numbers are around a thousand, less in fact. Now, what happened to those 200 extra Aes Sedai, I admit I have no idea, and it is odd, but Egwene, as Amrylin should have the most recent and most accurate numbers, I should think. Linda also goes with the slightly less than 1,000.

 

Here I found the quote

 

"I though of some sort of association [talking about the Wise Ones]. Elayne there are fewer than a thousand Aes Sedai."

[ozimandias]

Aes Sedai refer to both men AND women... at least historically. And they are of course the Servants of All. So the Guardians will balance out Aes Sedai, making them no different from anyone else.

 

In the Age of Legends certainly, but in other ages who knows. Perhaps in some ages only men are Aes Sedai, and in others only women. All we know is that they will both be Aes Sedai in the Second Age, the Age of Legends.

Sorry if it wasn't clear but what you just said is what I meant by "at least historically"... but it was not very vital to my point, which was simply that The Guardians, in this prophecy, refer to the The Guardian in Far Madding. Which clearly does the job of balancing out people who use the power.

[MasterAblar]

Aes Sedai refer to both men AND women... at least historically. And they are of course the Servants of All. So the Guardians will balance out Aes Sedai, making them no different from anyone else.

 

In the Age of Legends certainly, but in other ages who knows. Perhaps in some ages only men are Aes Sedai, and in others only women. All we know is that they will both be Aes Sedai in the Second Age, the Age of Legends.

Sorry if it wasn't clear but what you just said is what I meant by "at least historically"... but it was not very vital to my point, which was simply that The Guardians, in this prophecy, refer to the The Guardian in Far Madding. Which clearly does the job of balancing out people who use the power.

 

Nah, I got what you meant, I'm just very Black Tower conservative, so I always feel the need argue for it's independence.

[mdnyttokr]

My opinion on this is the foreshadowing of Aes Sedai and the one power going away in a future age. The Guardian being the thing that blocks the One Power in Far Madding. When the Seanchan take over, they will eventually learn how to replicate the Guardian (perhaps with greater understanding of Mat's Foxhead medallion), and they will end access to the One Power until the next Age of Legends. Also, in one of the books we see leashes involved in the structure of the Guardian in far madding, which always immediately made me think of some connection to Seanchan.

 

Aes Sedai refer to both men AND women... at least historically. And they are of course the Servants of All. So the Guardians will balance out Aes Sedai, making them no different from anyone else.

 

"The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." So clearly it is about the time after the last battle and the continuing fight with the Seanchan Return... to me the only way to balance out aes sedai would be to eliminate their access to the one power. What way do we know that can be done? The Guardian. So perhaps Far Madding will be attacked when Rand brings all the armies that were protecting to the FoM and the Seanchan will be taking it?

 

Thanks Ozzy. I agree that historically, Aes Sedai did refer to males and females, but Nicola's Foretelling was in the the present, the Third Age, where "Aes Sedai" means only women, and that's certainly how Nicola would have interpreted it, as a novice. However, I REALLY do like your idea about the Seanchan replicating the Guardian in Far Madding, and basically blanketing the world with it (I wonder if any current Aes Sedai will consider that). Unfortunately, I think they won't be able to do that until they've built up a large conventional army. Their own damane would also be rendered harmless if they replicate the Guardian, which would drastically slow down their conquest of the world for as long as there are enough other channelers to oppose them.

 

We've seen Avi's vision that showed the Seanchan taking over the world. We also know that Aviendha is looking for a way to make sure her children do not cause that war to happen in the first place. I'm thinking that in the process of figuring out how to avoid the future she saw, she may also figure out a way to deal with the Seanchan, either diplomatically or through the One Power. Remember, most Seanchan still do not know or believe that sul'dam can learn to channel. No telling how THAT will affect the empire, especially with Fortuona being able to learn.

[ozimandias]

Remember, most Seanchan still do not know or believe that sul'dam can learn to channel. No telling how THAT will affect the empire, especially with Fortuona being able to learn.

This is another reason that I think the Seanchan will be desperate to figure out a way to completely nullify the one power. They may have to fully disavow use of the Power if all of that came to light, which would lead to a need to completely nullify the One Power. Or they might just use the Guardian to protect their armies and their Empress from sneak attacks using Gateways and such... In any case, The Guardian could certainly be tactically useful for the Seanchan, and they are pretty tactically savvy.

 

As much as we all would hate to see it, Mat's wish to 'be free of Aes Sedai and the one power' might bring him to lead the Seanchan armies, if they actually ended up enacting a strategy to rid the world of the One Power. Although, I can't imagine him ever fighting against his own lands, with his fierce loyalty. Perhaps the Eelfin's wishes are not yet full fulfilled....

[Suttree]

Remember, most Seanchan still do not know or believe that sul'dam can learn to channel. No telling how THAT will affect the empire, especially with Fortuona being able to learn.

This is another reason that I think the Seanchan will be desperate to figure out a way to completely nullify the one power. They may have to fully disavow use of the Power if all of that came to light, which would lead to a need to completely nullify the One Power. Or they might just use the Guardian to protect their armies and their Empress from sneak attacks using Gateways and such... In any case, The Guardian could certainly be tactically useful for the Seanchan, and they are pretty tactically savvy.

 

As much as we all would hate to see it, Mat's wish to 'be free of Aes Sedai and the one power' might bring him to lead the Seanchan armies, if they actually ended up enacting a strategy to rid the world of the One Power. Although, I can't imagine him ever fighting against his own lands, with his fierce loyalty. Perhaps the Eelfin's wishes are not yet full fulfilled....

 

The Seanchan have no idea how to make any items of power aside from the a'dam. RJ was clear tht they dont have the skill for anythin besides that. Very few people at present have the talent. Are you saying they will capture those that do and learn how to make one. How would they go about studying it in the first place? Further that interpretation is a bit literal don't you think?

[ozimandias]

The Seanchan have no idea how to make any items of power aside from the a'dam. RJ was clear tht they dont have the skill for anythin besides that. Very few people at present have the talent. Are you saying they will capture those that do and learn how to make one. How would they go about studying it in the first place? Further that interpretation is a bit literal don't you think?

They certainly could capture people that can study items of power... or, since things are changing, perhaps one among them will develop that talent... but as you say, how could they study it? Which is why I mentioned maybe Mat's Foxhead is part of the key to that... but maybe not.

However as I mentioned the Guardian seems to have some relation to a'dam -

Beneath the balcony, three women in white sat on stools spaced equally around the edge of the floor, right against the dome's wall, and beside each woman, a disc a full span across that looked like clouded crystal had been set into the floor and inlaid with a long thin wedge of clear crystal that pointed toward the chamber's center. Metal collars surrounded the murky discs, marked off like a compass but with ever-smaller markings between the larger. Shalon could not be sure, but the collar nearest her appeared to be inscribed with numerals. That was all.

WH: p473

The metal Collars made me think of a'dam, which of course also control the one power in a way and the Seanchan know very much about them. As it says earlier on that same page: "I would give anything to study it, but that is impossible, of course. Who knows what else it might be able to do beside what we already know?"

 

As for it being too literal an interpretation... perhaps sometimes the best place to hide something is in plain sight.

 

Besides which, plenty of prophecies have pretty darn literal translations... 'On the slopes of dragonmount shall he be born... Born of a maiden wedded to no man.' or Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky in fire...' Heck almost all the prophecies have been pretty darn literal.

[kght22]

The prophecy about bringing balance to the Force is prequel nonsense George Lucas made up on the fly for the sake of turning Anakin into some kind of messianic figure. It didn't exist when the original trilogy was shot, and is really a shoddy and dubious invention at best.

 

Star Wars prequel films often remind me of the worst aspects of WoT.

perhaps it wasn't mentioned in the first trilogy, but i know from a friend of mine who was a huge starwars nerd in the early 90s, and this is also when he told me this, that anakin had the prophecy to bring balance to the force hanging over his head before he became darth vader. lucas didn't just make that up for the prequels unless he made it up in the 80s or early 90s for the many books and guides that were produced. considering how long after i heard about that prophecy that the movies came out (nearly a decade, at least 7 years) i wouldn't apply it to the blight that is the prequels.

[pamela]

Interesting parallel, but I always thought Vader brought balance to the force when he killed Palpatine at the end

 

It may also be true, because by killing Palpatine and sacrificing himself he actually closed the old era and established a new order - there is no Sith and there aren't any old Jedi, who had been not so perfect at all. There remains only young Luke, who can make a new beginning. But then there can be no parallel to the WoT... At least I hope so! (Let's imagine that all the Aes Sedai and all the Asha'man perish and there remains only Rand Sedai...)

[Razdif]

The Seanchan have no idea how to make any items of power aside from the a'dam. RJ was clear tht they dont have the skill for anythin besides that. Very few people at present have the talent. Are you saying they will capture those that do and learn how to make one. How would they go about studying it in the first place? Further that interpretation is a bit literal don't you think?

They certainly could capture people that can study items of power... or, since things are changing, perhaps one among them will develop that talent... but as you say, how could they study it? Which is why I mentioned maybe Mat's Foxhead is part of the key to that... but maybe not.

However as I mentioned the Guardian seems to have some relation to a'dam -

Beneath the balcony, three women in white sat on stools spaced equally around the edge of the floor, right against the dome's wall, and beside each woman, a disc a full span across that looked like clouded crystal had been set into the floor and inlaid with a long thin wedge of clear crystal that pointed toward the chamber's center. Metal collars surrounded the murky discs, marked off like a compass but with ever-smaller markings between the larger. Shalon could not be sure, but the collar nearest her appeared to be inscribed with numerals. That was all.

WH: p473

The metal Collars made me think of a'dam, which of course also control the one power in a way and the Seanchan know very much about them. As it says earlier on that same page: "I would give anything to study it, but that is impossible, of course. Who knows what else it might be able to do beside what we already know?"

 

As for it being too literal an interpretation... perhaps sometimes the best place to hide something is in plain sight.

 

Besides which, plenty of prophecies have pretty darn literal translations... 'On the slopes of dragonmount shall he be born... Born of a maiden wedded to no man.' or Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky in fire...' Heck almost all the prophecies have been pretty darn literal.

 

We know they make the rings for the blood knives and that they're ter'angreal so they have at least some ability in the area. Unless they found the rings of course but I can't see them having found enough to constitute using them up as part of their military operations however rare their use is.

[Suttree]

We know they make the rings for the blood knives and that they're ter'angreal so they have at least some ability in the area.

 

Nope.

 

Interview: Nov 15th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - Freelancer (Paraphrased)

Question

 

Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

Brandon Sanderson

 

Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.

 

Welcome to DM Razdif! Lot's of good stuff to read up on here in the Interview Database...

 

http://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php

[MasterAblar]

We know they make the rings for the blood knives and that they're ter'angreal so they have at least some ability in the area.

 

Nope.

 

Interview: Nov 15th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - Freelancer (Paraphrased)

Question

 

Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

Brandon Sanderson

 

Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.

 

Welcome to DM Razdif! Lot's of good stuff to read up on here in the Interview Database...

 

http://www.theorylan...view-search.php

 

I forget what thread it was in but I believe at one point there was a discussion about whether Logain had killed any Aes Sedai in Ghealdan. I figured I might as well put this here since it's close enough. It wasn't certain because there were only rumours in Baelorn. Well I found this in The Great Hunt confirming that he killed some Aes Sedai:

 

“Yes, Logain is in Tar Valon by now, gentled and safe, I suppose, but some of our sisters died to overpower him. Even one sister dead is more loss than we can bear, but Ghealdan's losses were much worse.”

[XXX]

I don;t read it in absolute nos,just that that female domination of Randland will end with the top organization no longer a female only group.

[Suttree]

We know they make the rings for the blood knives and that they're ter'angreal so they have at least some ability in the area.

 

Nope.

 

Interview: Nov 15th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - Freelancer (Paraphrased)

Question

 

Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

Brandon Sanderson

 

Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.

 

Welcome to DM Razdif! Lot's of good stuff to read up on here in the Interview Database...

 

http://www.theorylan...view-search.php

 

I forget what thread it was in but I believe at one point there was a discussion about whether Logain had killed any Aes Sedai in Ghealdan. I figured I might as well put this here since it's close enough. It wasn't certain because there were only rumours in Baelorn. Well I found this in The Great Hunt confirming that he killed some Aes Sedai:

 

“Yes, Logain is in Tar Valon by now, gentled and safe, I suppose, but some of our sisters died to overpower him. Even one sister dead is more loss than we can bear, but Ghealdan's losses were much worse.”

 

Great find MA!

[Razdif]

Thank you Suttree! I can assure you that I am well familiar with the interview database(my sleep cycle is as well), must have missed that little tidbit though so thanks :D. The guardian balancing the servants referring to Far Madding just puts me off in general though, mainly because I think the Seanchan would rather capture channelers to use as weapons and valuable commodities rather than stopping anyone from channeling at all. I'll have to wait and see if I'll be made to eat my words when the inevitable happens and the Sul'dam are ousted as potential channelers though.

 

Do we have any idea of how many men Logain has compared to Taim? Surely the 100 at Maradon would have been his (?) but as far as I've read (everything except the prologue) I can't recall us being given many hints.

[MasterAblar]

Thank you Suttree! I can assure you that I am well familiar with the interview database(my sleep cycle is as well), must have missed that little tidbit though so thanks :D. The guardian balancing the servants referring to Far Madding just puts me off in general though, mainly because I think the Seanchan would rather capture channelers to use as weapons and valuable commodities rather than stopping anyone from channeling at all. I'll have to wait and see if I'll be made to eat my words when the inevitable happens and the Sul'dam are ousted as potential channelers though.

 

Do we have any idea of how many men Logain has compared to Taim? Surely the 100 at Maradon would have been his (?) but as far as I've read (everything except the prologue) I can't recall us being given many hints.

 

Half the Asha'man were sent out of the BT in KoD, including all those with bonded Aes Sedai, but none that were loyal to Taim. At this point, Logain reports that Taim has 41 full Asha'man with him, and 50 more in his special classes. Then at the end of KoD, there are a hundred Asha'man with Taim. We can assume that these are all darkfriends. The total number of Asha'man was about 500 at the beginning of WH. This is a little less than halfway (107 out of 247 days) between, the beginning of LoC, when the BT is founded, and the beginning of aMoL. So by now there should be over 1000 Asha'man, darkfriends included, pariticularly considering the rate of recruitement was not as great at the beginning seeing as only Taim could do it. The numbers are consistent with those we're given in chapter 14 of tPoD, where Torval reports that there are 448 Asha'man with 3 to 4 more coming in each day. There are 163 days between that chapter and the beginning of aMoL. That means between 489 and 652 more recruits, bringing the Asha'man numbers up to between 937 and 1100. So the number of total Asha'man are consistent.

 

The number of darkfriends are a little harder to estimate. Like I said there were 100 by the end of KoD. That's 101 days after Torval's report in tPoD, so 303 to 404 more Asha'man. By this point there should be between 750 and 800 Asha'man, maybe more. So you have about 12 to 15% of Darkfriends amongst the Asha'man at this point. That percentage may have gone up by the beginning of the last book. I would think there should be at least 150 darkfriend Asha'man, perhaps more.

 

Now the rest of the Asha'man would side with Logain and Rand, once Taim's true allegiances become known. There should have been between 680 and 750 Asha'man when Logain sent half of them out of the BT. So there are about 350 Asha'man who should be firmly under Rand and Logain's control. The majority of the 700 (appoximatively) Asha'man still at the BT, are "neutral" so to speak. They're neither amongst Taim's men, nor are they actively opposed to him, like Androl and his supporters. Androl, and therefore Logain, may have as few as 50 men at the BT that he can be certain will side with him against Taim. The rest, probably between 450 and 500, will have to be made aware of Taim's true allegiance. The problem for Androl is how does he do that without forcing Taim to come true in a fight? Right now a fight against Taim is out of the question, since his men outnumber Logain's at the BT. The Aes Sedai would even things a little, though not much, but the problem is that involving them would turn a lot of the other Asha'man, the neutral ones, against Androl and Logain.

[ozimandias]

Okay, seems everyone (except me) agrees that guardians and servants are Asha'man and Aes sedai... But then what does this mean for the time after the last battle which this prophecy refers to and how does it relate to the Seanchan?

 

The prophecy says the 'The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants." So are the Asha'man and Aes Sedai still fighting after the last battle? Instead of being able to focus on the Seanchan perhaps the White Tower focuses on the Asha'man...

[Suttree]

Okay, seems everyone (except me) agrees that guardians and servants are Asha'man and Aes sedai... But then what does this mean for the time after the last battle which this prophecy refers to and how does it relate to the Seanchan?

 

The prophecy says the 'The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants." So are the Asha'man and Aes Sedai still fighting after the last battle? Instead of being able to focus on the Seanchan perhaps the White Tower focuses on the Asha'man...

 

First off it's "guardians balance the servants" there is no out. The most likely scenario is they join together. Not sure why you would get fighting out if that.