be'lal

[SBoydW]

Well there are two quotes from RJ that I have read. One is the one that I bleive chucki is refering where the "if it's only a small amount of balefire" thing is borught up.

 

Then there is another where RJ says that if you're hit with balefire your toast.

 

My thing is that I don't think that the DO can bring you back if you are Balefired. Maybe it is possible that the pattern will spin you back out. That would be your only hope for "rebirth"(as I believe it is called in the books.

[Verbal32]

Exactly my thought as well. If balefired, you are out of reach for the DO to bring back, but you could be spun out again by the Wheel in a different Age. I think the story would be better if balefire equaled toast for your soul, but we know that soul does not equal thread.

 

After all this talk of burning threads and the pattern, I feel like making a scarf. 8)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Just as a side note, people make too much out of the seeming "balefire loophole" provided by RJ. The only situation in which that loophole could apply is under the very, very restricted circumstances that RJ described. That is, the Dark One has to know in advance whats going to happen, and is already waiting before the person gets balefired, with the smallest "amount" of balefire imaginable. Which raises the question ... how would the Dark One know in advance that one of his people was going to be balefired? Or, if the person was balefired at his order, why would he then bring them back? The whole thing is silly, which is what RJ was pointing out. In every real, practical way, balefire is irrevocable death. Which is why there are a plethora of RJ quotes saying just that. When you are balefired, you are dead, dead, dead.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

the Dark One has to know in advance whats going to happen, and is already waiting before the person gets balefired, with the smallest "amount" of balefire imaginable.

That is incorrect. Here is the actual quote.

 

There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

When you are balefired, you are dead, dead, dead.

Yes, you are dead. However, your dead soul can be put in a new body and given life. Balefire only makes this more difficult.

[chuckievi]

Note I said nothing about easy or probable, just saying that its POSSIBLE. As the quote provided by Kirby illustrates.

[Beowolf]

^ And good thing you didn't say anything about probable... :)

 

As a side note: This is what..., the 3rd or so topic around that has been transformed into a balefire discussion? All this while I am still waiting for feedback on my theory in the actual balefire discussion topic. Lol. :lol:

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK. Its possible. Just like it is possible that tomorrow morning, 10 or 12 supermodels will spontaneously show up at my door, volunteering to be my lifelong servants free of charge, while from the other direction, George Steinbrenner shows up saying, "Screw baseball, I'm giving you the annual salary of the Yankees", while Alan Greenspan sits in my living room giving me free financial advice, and the UN decides to vote for me as Secretary-General while all the nations of the world expand the powers of that position to monarchial dimensions.

 

It is possible, but it will never happen. Same thing with someone being brought back from balefire.

 

Look ... the Dark One doesn't have to be ready at the instant of death, but he does have to be ready within five or ten minutes, because we've seen very small amounts of balefire burn that much time out the Pattern for a thread. So if he doesn't know in advance, a messenger has to be waiting on standby to run take the message to him, and the amount used has to be tiny. There's no way that combination of circumstances is going to happen in a real situation unless all the participants are working for the Shadow, and if they're all working for the Shadow, there's no reason to do it that way.

 

Its hasn't happened, and its just never going to happen.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

It's more probable than that. We've seen 4 resurrections so far - the 'gars, Moridin, and Cyndane (I feel like I'm missing one). The other forsaken who have died have not been retrievable for various reasons, but it seems that if the DO can save one of his Chosen, he does. Also, there are surely Darkfriends in the Stone, and some may have known Be'lal's identity and sent a message to Shayol Ghul. On the other hand, Aginor and Balthamel die without anyone to tell the DO, and are saved. Granted, they were much 'closer' to the bore than Be'lal, and this may have helped.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It's more probable than that. We've seen 4 resurrections so far - the 'gars, Moridin, and Cyndane (I feel like I'm missing one).

 

You're not missing any. And none of those, not one, were killed with BALEFIRE.

 

Of the four who we haven't seen return, two were killed by balefire, one was a traitor, and one was acting against orders.

 

The only two fairly loyal ones that we haven't seen return were balefired. That seems pretty indicative to me.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

The DO himself said that he couldn't have saved Rahvin, but he doesn't say anything about Be'lal. It's possible that he saved Be'lal and didn't tell anybody (in fact, I don't think he tells the other Chosen about any of his resurrections - they figure it out themselves, or the resurrected person decides to give it away). Maybe Be'lal saw a benefit in keeping himself a secret - he is the Netweaver, after all.

 

Just because the two who we haven't seen return have something in common, doesn't mean that is the reason they haven't returned.

[Leopoled Boothe]

one was a traitor

 

This is a bit off topic but I just wanted to clear things up on this point as this is one of the most commom misconceptions in the entire sereis. Asmodean's being a traitor had nothing to do with the fact that he was not recycled and he was not purpously denied transmigration by the DO. RJ has stated that Asmo COULD NOT be resurected because of where and how he was killed. Powerfull channelers are in short supply in the 3rd age and the DO needs every powerfull servent he can get. If the DO could have trasmigrated Asmodean's soul he would have and Moridin would have a third mindtrap.

 

As for the Ta'lal theory I must admit that I almost bought into it at one point, but as I read more and more of RJ's interviews I've become more and more convinced that Taim is just Taim. Particularly, in RJ's response to a fan's question about the One Power and Slowing RJ stated:

 

"Slowing begings much later for men that for women and Taim is in his late 20's, yes he is in his late 20's"

 

If Taim were one of the Forsaken he would be much older than that. We know that RJ is not in the habbit of lying to his fans and if Taim were one of the Forsaken RJ surely would have been clever enough to say "Taim appears to be in his late 20's" But he didn't say that he said Taim is in his early 20's.

[isleofjib]

RJ has stated that Asmo COULD NOT be resurected because of where and how he was killed.

 

do you have a link to this? i don't recall reading that anywhere.

 

Particularly' date=' in RJ's response to a fan's question about the One Power and Slowing RJ stated:

 

"Slowing begings much later for men that for women and Taim is in his late 20's, yes he is in his late 20's"

 

If Taim were one of the Forsaken he would be much older than that. We know that RJ is not in the habbit of lying to his fans and if Taim were one of the Forsaken RJ surely would have been clever enough to say "Taim [i']appears[/i] to be in his late 20's" But he didn't say that he said Taim is in his early 20's.

 

i made this same point for this same reason...it would seem to imply taim is just taim...but with RJ, most anything could be possible...that whole idea of turning him with a circle of 13 is pretty intriguing. guess we'll see how it all plays out when the next book comes out.

[Leopoled Boothe]

RJ has stated that Asmo COULD NOT be resurected because of where and how he was killed.

 

 

do you have a link to this? i don't recall reading that anywhere.

 

Unfortunatly I don't. I've been doing alot of research of WOT lately and I usually happen along interviews at various sites. Sorry.

 

 

i made this same point for this same reason...it would seem to imply taim is just taim...but with RJ' date=' most anything could be possible...that whole idea of turning him with a circle of 13 is pretty intriguing. guess we'll see how it all plays out when the next book comes out.[/quote']

 

Yes, when I say Taim is Taim that does not exclude the possiblity of him having been turned by a circle of 13, it just means that he isn't anyone else in disguise. If he were turned by a circle of 13 then he would be an altered version of himself but he would still be Taim.

[isleofjib]

that's what i meant to. after reading KoD, i was thinking that taim was moridin (the colors, the laugh, the "let the lord of chaos rule" thing). then i read that quote by RJ and now i honestly don't know what to believe. but that isn't anything new with this series either for me. :)

 

about asmodean, i thought i remember reading some of the RJ Q and A's where he said asmo wasn't brought back because he was a traitor.

 

of course, RJ also says it should be easy to figure out who killed him... :roll:

[Narg]

We don't know Be'lal's personality very well

 

belal Made evny an art. he was a lawyer in the age of legends and was incredibly good at it. He fought the shadow before turning to the dark due to being envios and hating LTT. He was athletic with close cropped hair and was a patient and talented warrior willing to do direct battle with a foe. He was an oustanding general who moved up the ranks in tear to high lord.

 

Sounds like a taim to me.