be'lal

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

The taim=be'lal thread just up and vanished, so I thought I'd start another one.

 

Everyone assumes that Be'lal is dead - he was balefired, after all. However, there is evidence that the DO may have saved Be'lal's soul and put him in a new body.

"Impossible!", you say? Well, take a look at the evidence:

 

1) In a QOTW, RJ said that someone who is balefired cannot be saved by the DO "unless the amount of balefire used is very small".

 

2) Be'lal was balefired by Moiriane, who by her own admission could only burn a thread back a few seconds with balefire. Is the amount of balefire used by Moiriane a "very small" amount? It is possible.

 

So, with this, we realize that Be'lal may not be gone for good, after all. But who is he? He could be Mazrim Taim:

 

1) Taim often acts like someone from the AOL, and only the forsaken have survived that long. Be'lal is one of the only forsaken unaccounted for.

 

2) Taim disappears at almost the exact same time as Be'lal's death.

 

3) When Taim shows up again, the only person to see him before and after his disappearance (Bashere), doubts his identity.

 

4) LTT reacts to Taim like he is one of the forsaken.

 

This isn't conclusive evidence, obviously. However, I just get this feeling that it all adds up.

 

Counter-arguments:

 

1) Taim and Be'lal have very different personalities.

Answer - We don't know Be'lal's personality very well - just that he's called the Envious (taim is def. envious of rand) and the Netweaver (taim is turning the BT against rand, turning what rand thought would be one of his most powerful forces into a force for the enemy).

 

2) RJ also said that death by balefire is permamnet.

Answer - No, he didn't. He just said that balefire kills you if it hits you.

 

3) Moridin doesn't know about Be'lal.

Answer - The DO could have a reason for keeping him secret. Maybe he wants to keep an ace in the hole for the LB, one that even Moridin can't predict.

 

4) You're stupid, Taim isn't Demandred and he's not going to be Be'lal either.

Answer - this has nothing to do with Demandred. Forget about Demandred.

 

btw, does anyone know why that other thread just disappeared?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Taim is not Be'lal. Taim is not [insert name of forsaken here] reincarnated. Mazrim Taim is Mazrim Taim. The egomaniac who believes he should be the Dragon Reborn.

 

Bashere's skepticism only lasted for a couple paragraphs before Taim convinced him.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Just because I thought it was really funny, I will reinsert this:

 

'E's not Taim! 'E's passed on! This Forsaken is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If he hadn't been balefired 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-FORSAKEN!!

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

I was sad to see Be'lal so easily disposed of. He seemed to have the Total Package™, unlike the other Forsaken.

 

But with one book left, we can't just have all of the Forsaken still be kicking around. SOME of them have to have already permanently kicked.

 

Otherwise, the heroes will have to re-fight all the Forsaken again and the DO and all the Darkfriends and all the Shadowspawn? That seems a bit excessive for one more volume.

 

I had a hard time letting go of Taimindred. Sigh. :cry:

[SBoydW]

Well my feelings are already known about this so i'm just going to say this. Taim is not Be'lal.

[Leopoled Boothe]

While I agree with you about the ineffectivness of small amounts of balefire and I do believe that we may yet see Be'lal again, I do not think that Be'lal is Taim. I know that we did not know Be'lal's personality well but still there is one serious contrast between the personalities of of the two. Remember that Taim seemed very adament in his argument that swordplay would be usless to a channeler and that teaching it to the Asha'man would be a waste of time. Be'lal, on the other hand, would never endorce this point of view as he, himself, was a very skilled swordsman. So if you are looking for Be'lal is suggest you look elsewhere than Taim. Taim is must Taim.

[PerrinFtw]

In all fairness I'm starting to believe you slightly... The evidence you put forward SEEMS to suggest he is. But I guess we won't know until the LB, because if he Is then he will make an appearance then before anywhere else imhhhhho.

 

Imagine Be'lal coming back for a 1 v 1 with Moiraine (which would have to interrupt Moiraine attempting to heal Nynaeve of a fatal wound (with land begging moiraine), a nice lil 1 v 1 moiraine v be'lal for some good old fighting :D)

 

That's how I'd like to see it anyway :p

 

Perrin rocks my socks.

[chemteach1977]

Not sure that Morraine could face Be'lal in a fair fight. Last time she beat him with a sucker-punch and cheated too. The boxing equivalent of punching your opponent in the face before the bell AND wearing brass knuckles. Even with her little angreal, i think Morraine is toast in a fair fight.

[TheDiceAgain...]

'E's not Taim! 'E's passed on! This Forsaken is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If he hadn't been balefired 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-FORSAKEN!!

 

Please don't do that anymore, Robert. I'm at work, and you can't imagine what a hard time I'd have explaining it if I happened to fall out of my chair laughing again...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Please don't do that anymore, Robert. I'm at work, and you can't imagine what a hard time I'd have explaining it if I happened to fall out of my chair laughing again...

 

You're welcome. I live to serve. :D

[RobertAlexWillis]

Not sure that Morraine could face Be'lal in a fair fight. Last time she beat him with a sucker-punch and cheated too. The boxing equivalent of punching your opponent in the face before the bell AND wearing brass knuckles. Even with her little angreal, i think Morraine is toast in a fair fight.

 

Of COURSE Moiraine is toast in a fair fight. She didn't hit him before the bell, she shot him from the crowd while he was boxing with someone else. Thats why I love Moiraine. While other people are posing and saying "Mwahahaha all's fair in love and war" she's killing them. She and Lan are a perfect match.

[PerrinFtw]

Ye so picture this, Moiraine is back and has ran into Be'lal, some grudge here ofc because Be'lol has just severely wounded Lan, lets say nynaeve somehow CANNOT heal Lan, so is begging Moiraine to. This would be interesting to see from both's POV, Nynaeve hates Moiraine!

 

And then Be'lal comes and starts on her just as she's about to heal Lan, they have a full on fight, (Mat flings his Ter'angreal into Moiraine which dissipates the weaves comsuning her body with fire?) Just an idea hehe xD but I'd love to see Nynaeve and Moiraine and Lan pulled together for some reason, gotta be some friction there so imhhhho it should be used.

 

Perrin ftw

[Leopoled Boothe]

Ok, as some of you may know I have been a long time proponent of the "Taim is just Taim" theory. However, I must admit that I am begining to think that there could be something to this Taim = Be'lal theory. I'm not saying that I am ready to commit to it or that is necessarly believe it but there is something inside me that says, "Well, it could be."

 

Anyway, take <(^-^)>'s evidence and couple it with the fact that Be'lal just happend to establish his base of power in Tear. Would it not make sense for a Forsaken with a False Dragon as an alter ego to set himself up in the very place where Calandor is kept? Perhaps Be'lal chose to take over Tear in the hope that he could find a way to disapate the barrier around Calandor. Once this was accomplished, Be'lal working from the inside could arange it so that the Stone would take a dive to Taim's army. Once the Stone had fallen he would retake the form of Taim and claim Calandor for himself thus proving to the world that Mazrim Taim is The Dragon Reborn and relegating Rand, in the eyes of the world, to the status of False Dragon.

 

So what do you think? Doesn't seem like a half bad plan if you ask me.

[crazyone]

Ok, I've been listening to all these Taim = ???? posts, but here is another thought. Taim = Taim, but a Taim that has been turned to the Dark by 13 M and 13 black sisters.

We do not know what this process does to one's sanity, point of view, memories etc...

[SBoydW]

Ok, I've been listening to all these Taim = ???? posts, but here is another thought. Taim = Taim, but a Taim that has been turned to the Dark by 13 M and 13 black sisters.

 

No arguments here I definatley think that taim is a Dark Friend. Which makes him a False Dragon Reborn, and a False Forsaken Reborn.... poor guy just a failure all around.

[Thorum]

It started of as a strange thing, but I begin to believe it.

 

Didn't Taim run away just after Be'lal was balefired???

 

That could be just a reason to change its personality.

 

And it also explains how he could get away so quickly and killing a couple of Sisters (3, I think)

[Asgard Thorin]

Ok' date=' I've been listening to all these Taim = ???? posts, but here is another thought. Taim = Taim, but a Taim that has been turned to the Dark by 13 M and 13 black sisters.

We do not know what this process does to one's sanity, point of view, memories etc...[/quote']

 

That was my original theory. He was "freed" by his followers, and since the B. Ajah talked about plans for Taim. Still, I think it more likely that he is Bel'al secretly recycled. LTT hardly reacts to any of the 'Wells-assigned Asha'man any more and he reacts to Logain not atall-except when talking about Taim. I think LTT can sense the connection to the DO since Asmodean and Rhuidean. Hey, does anyone know why my thread disappeared?

[Guest Majsju]

Be'lal is dead. Period.

[Dantalion]

I would have to agree with Majsju here. Occasionally in this series, people stay dead.

 

 

Very occasionally, mind. . .

[Asgard Thorin]

What! No, no they can't stay dead!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D Seriously, somehow I don't think Bel'al is like Ravhin, Asmodean or Sammael. Here's a twist. Is it possible Taim is Bel'al AND Moridin, and that Ishamael was actually recycled as Shadar Haran? Not saying I've found any 411 or even 111 on that but I don't want to be unprepared when RJ throws us the final curveballs.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The ultimate curve-balls. Mat is Rand! And Bela is the Dark One!

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

The ultimate curve-balls. Mat is Rand! And Bela is the Dark One!

 

That's as plausible as anything else in this thread.

 

Sometimes I think people are just tossing out any possible theory they can think of so that when all is said and done' date=' they can say "I told you so!"

 

Like the person above said, very occasionally RJ's characters stay dedz.

 

And I for one would be rather irritated if, after all this time and effort to get to the final book and the Final Battle and hey! all that work you went to to kill the Forsaken--look! None of them are actually dead! You have to fight them all over again in one book![/color']

[Karrava]

Im new to posting here( been reading posts for a while though :) ) And i know that Taim theories havent been discussed to death.

 

But what <(^-^)> posted has definatly given me some new food for thought

 

Not that i actually i agree, i think Taim most likely is just plain ol' Taim.

 

But i cant actually think of any reasons the points made might not be correct either :/

[SBoydW]

If Be'lal hadn't been balefired I might could've believed it... but he was and I don't.

[Guest Majsju]

Ah, I knew I had seen this somewhere...

 

Tam: He doesn’t have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?

 

Jordan: No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the bore is best perceived, the bore doesn’t really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, its simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did, and uh, that’s, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be’lal, (names someone else)…,

 

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