Question about the seals

[Wool-headed lummox]

Egwene's concern is based on the fact that Rand is going to break the seals while having absolutely no idea how to seal the Bore. At least, not that we know of. He isn't even sure what he's intending to do, imprison the Dark One or kill him off for good. Obviously, his intention to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the seals right after meeting the monarchs - the very next day after Chapter One - is premature, the very structure of the book suggests it.

[Amandera]

I never said Rand knows how to seal the Bore. All we know is he intends to do it as soon as he knows how. Moiraine is coming, and presumably with some answers.

 

About Egwene's concerns, they change from book to book so it's hard to be certain what they are based on. That is a writing error and we'll never get the truth of it because different sources indicate different outcomes (ie in ToM, she believes "Surely Rand can defeat the DO without breaking the Seals", in AMoL she believes if the Seals are to be broken it needs to be at the right time). As of AMoL, Chapter 1, however, she believes Rand has a "crackbrained scheme" not that he is clueless.

[Wool-headed lummox]

All we know is he intends to do it as soon as he knows how

He's one day away from meeting the monarchs and travelling to Shayol Ghul, and he still doesn't know how. I don't know about you, but I'm a bit tired of protagonists charging into a fight they don't know how to win, and coming up with a spontaneous solution in the last moment that works miraculously due to them having protagonist powers. I hope this isn't what the whole series is going for.

 

ie in ToM, she believes "Surely Rand can defeat the DO without breaking the Seals", in AMoL she believes if the Seals are to be broken it needs to be at the right time

She amended her initial sentiment on breaking the seals after organizing her thoughts about it. People do that, often.

 

As of AMoL, Chapter 1, however, she believes Rand has a "crackbrained scheme" not that he is clueless.

A crackbrained scheme can come from being clueless about what needs to be done, and the most info Rand has about sealing the Bore is a riddle from the Snakes that no one ever found an answer to. And "the blood of the Dragon on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" prophecy, whatever that means.

[Amandera]

I'm sorry but you're ignoring what I'm saying and giving me false facts, man.

 

Everybody hates spontaneous solutions because they don't make sense. Plans come from careful consideration and proper researching, not from revelations. I've already said this will not be the case however. For better or worse, LTT had a way to seal the Bore. Yes, it led to disaster but it sealed it nonetheless. Min has been researching nonstop for months. On top of that, I refuse to believe Moiraine has been playing dead from The Fires of Heaven just for the late dramatic effect. She got something from the Eelfinn and it will be important. Gather all these together, and they will have a plan ready. And Rand intends to execute it, as soon as they have.

 

Egwene didn't amend her initial sentiment. Initial sentiment was at The Amyrlin's Anger. That quote you made is from her talk with Nynaeve, when Nynaeve says they should let Rand break the Seals, after ample time for organizing her thoughts, after the convention of the Hall of the Tower to discuss Rand's words. In Writings, he writes to monarchs of the world that they need to stop Rand. And at the end of the book, just one day before Rand's deadline, in Something Wrong, she says to Gawyn "Gawyn, he knows he shouldn't break those seals. A part of him does, at least. Perhaps that's why he told me—so I could gather resistance, so I could talk him out of it." So, throughout the book, she says they shouldn't break the Seals. Then at AMoL, just few hours later from what she says to Gawyn, she gets retconned and thinks they should only break the Seals at the right time.

[Wool-headed lummox]

For better or worse, LTT had a way to seal the Bore. Yes, it led to disaster but it sealed it nonetheless. Min has been researching nonstop for months. On top of that, I refuse to believe Moiraine has been playing dead from The Fires of Heaven just for the late dramatic effect. She got something from the Eelfinn and it will be important. Gather all these together, and they will have a plan ready. And Rand intends to execute it, as soon as they have.

I'm sorry, but you're the one giving misleading facts here. Rand cannot possibly count on Moiraine to tell him what to do, because he thinks her dead. Everyone does, minus Mat and Thom. And I seriously doubt he's counting on Min to clue him in how to seal the bore in the last minute, she had months to do that, and didn't. Remember, Rand goes to Shayol Ghul tomorrow. It's a question of hours now. So far, Min hasn't produced anything of value, and as far as Rand knows knows - Moiraine is resting in peace in a better world. He isn't waiting for anyone to give him information, he's already decided to go no matter what. Which isn't to say that Min/Moiraine won't play an important role in the end - both certainly will, but Rand's reasoning does not include either of them. That's exactly what a reasonable person's concern would be with his intentions. He makes decisions before he has enough information to carry them out.

 

Then at AMoL, just few hours later from what she says to Gawyn, she gets retconned and thinks they should only break the Seals at the right time.

Again, I don't see why she couldn't find some merit with Rand's plan after sitting down and writing him that letter, and change her position from strictly against breaking the seals at any time, to breaking them at the right moment. The right moment being a time when Rand travels to Shayol Ghul knowing exactly what he's supposed to do there.

[Amandera]

For the last time, I think Rand is going to SG as soon as he's figured out what to do, not tomorrow. Egwene assumes he'll break the Seals first, fight the war, win the war, then go to Shayol Ghul to seal the Bore. Well, that's not the case, it can't be the case, and the fact Egwene thinks it is the case is a writing error because of Rand's previous comments that he doesn't intend to fight this war for the most part. He'll organize the world, then go to his own battle which is in Shayol Ghul.

 

Yes, he can't count on Moiraine coming, so he's seeking answers on his own. He is contemplating what to do as evidenced by the fact that he is worried about what to do in AMoL Chapter 1. That doesn't mean that Moiraine is not coming with answers. And I do think he is counting on Min to figure out things, not that I'm saying he's expecting Min to come with the magical answer. But she's proven herself quite smart, figuring out what a lot of Aes Sedai and scholars haven't. She is a source, and he'll use it but she is only one of his sources.

 

As for Egwene, if I understand right, you're saying her opinion could have changed during writing her letter to Rand. That means her opinion didn't change a whisker for a month, then in a matter of hours, did. Well, I don't accept that.

[Wool-headed lummox]

For the last time, I think Rand is going to SG as soon as he's figured out what to do, not tomorrow.

That's where you're wrong. Observe the magic of observation. Nothing up my right sleeve. Nothing up my left sleeve. Nothing in my hat as well. Hocus pocus abracadabra, a quote from ToM chapter 3 (Rand meets Egwene in the Hall of the Tower):

 

"In one month's time," Rand said, "I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the

Dark One's prison. I want your help."

 

He's breaking the seals tomorrow. He's no idea what he's going to do afterwards, but boy, he's hell-bent on smashing those disks of corrupted cuendillar.

 

the fact Egwene thinks it is the case is a writing error

That's your observation error. She thinks that because that's what Rand told her. And she's right to be worried. I'm worried too.

 

As for Egwene, if I understand right, you're saying her opinion could have changed during writing her letter to Rand. That means her opinion didn't change a whisker for a month, then in a matter of hours, did. Well, I don't accept that.

I'm saying that "don't break the seals until you have a solution" could have easily replaced "don't break the seals ever" once Egwene questioned the possibility of sealing the Bore without the prior removal of the patch. Sitting down and writing a letter is a perfect way to organize your thoughts, and doesn't seem all that improbable to me. I've changed my mind like that before. Most people have. Being confronted by Elaine may have played a part too. That's how opinion are formed, and changed.

 

And I do think he is counting on Min to figure out things

Not in the span of a single day or less. If she had something to discover, she would have in the months they shared with each other. That is, as far as Rand's thinking is concerned, not that she can't be suddenly inspired by something completely unforeseen, like, I don't know, Moiraine coming back from the dead with all her secret knowledge.

[thisguy]

If you picture the Seals as Antartic or Elephant seals, the storyline looks a lot different.

 

Personally, I think Rand should clear the seals out of the Bore, it's only right.

[Mulk]

If you picture the Seals as Antartic or Elephant seals, the storyline looks a lot differently.

 

LOL. At work. Good thing I have a door.

[thisguy]

If you picture the Seals as Antartic or Elephant seals, the storyline looks a lot differently.

 

LOL. At work. Good thing I have a door.

 

Do you think Rand will send conservationist Greenpeace types to get the seals out of the Bore or just send some guys in with clubs? ;)

[Mulk]

imagine hauling those things around and trying to keep them "safe."

[driedraspberry]

If you picture the Seals as Antartic or Elephant seals, the storyline looks a lot differently.

 

LOL. At work. Good thing I have a door.

 

Do you think Rand will send conservationist Greenpeace types to get the seals out of the Bore or just send some guys in with clubs? ;)

 

Traumatic. Suddenly Eggy's stance against breaking them is understandable.

[thisguy]

imagine hauling those things around and trying to keep them "safe."

HAHAHAHA!!!! And, feeding them. All the fish. Finally, a reason for the Sea Folk.

[thisguy]

If you picture the Seals as Antartic or Elephant seals, the storyline looks a lot differently.

 

LOL. At work. Good thing I have a door.

 

Do you think Rand will send conservationist Greenpeace types to get the seals out of the Bore or just send some guys in with clubs? ;)

 

Traumatic. Suddenly Eggy's stance against breaking them is understandable.

 

Yeah, she seems a lot more likeable all of a sudden. :D

[Neophyte]

Perhaps that would make Moridin the Polar Bear Reborn.

[thisguy]

Rand then becomes the Orca Reborn.

[thisguy]

The question now becomes, what kind of sick SOB uses Antartic Seals to close the bore?

[Neophyte]

Aaaaaaand Fiddlesticks.

[Mulk]

LTT was clearly insane...right? It just started a bit before we thought is all

[BFG]

For the last time, I think Rand is going to SG as soon as he's figured out what to do, not tomorrow.

That's where you're wrong. Observe the magic of observation. Nothing up my right sleeve. Nothing up my left sleeve. Nothing in my hat as well. Hocus pocus abracadabra, a quote from ToM chapter 3 (Rand meets Egwene in the Hall of the Tower):

 

"In one month's time," Rand said, "I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the

Dark One's prison. I want your help."

 

He's breaking the seals tomorrow. He's no idea what he's going to do afterwards, but boy, he's hell-bent on smashing those disks of corrupted cuendillar.

 

the fact Egwene thinks it is the case is a writing error

That's your observation error. She thinks that because that's what Rand told her. And she's right to be worried. I'm worried too.

 

As for Egwene, if I understand right, you're saying her opinion could have changed during writing her letter to Rand. That means her opinion didn't change a whisker for a month, then in a matter of hours, did. Well, I don't accept that.

I'm saying that "don't break the seals until you have a solution" could have easily replaced "don't break the seals ever" once Egwene questioned the possibility of sealing the Bore without the prior removal of the patch. Sitting down and writing a letter is a perfect way to organize your thoughts, and doesn't seem all that improbable to me. I've changed my mind like that before. Most people have. Being confronted by Elaine may have played a part too. That's how opinion are formed, and changed.

 

And I do think he is counting on Min to figure out things

Not in the span of a single day or less. If she had something to discover, she would have in the months they shared with each other. That is, as far as Rand's thinking is concerned, not that she can't be suddenly inspired by something completely unforeseen, like, I don't know, Moiraine coming back from the dead with all her secret knowledge.

 

I'm not sure why you're so sure that Min doesn't already have a solution:

 

Min still slumbered in another part of the tent, sectioned off with a curtain.

 

In ToM Min felt a 'cold shiver' at finding the answer. The day before it becomes necessary she's sleeping peacefully. Considering that she's not malicious or stupid it suggests that she's not worried, which suggests that she's already found the information that Rand needs.

 

That didn’t mean he had all of the answers. Despite four hundred years of memories nestled in his brain, he still worried about what he had to do. Lews Therin hadn’t known how to seal the Bore. His attempt had led to disaster. The taint, the Breaking, all for an imperfect prison with seals that were now brittle.

One answer kept coming to Rand. A dangerous answer. One that Lews Therin hadn’t considered.

What if the answer wasn’t to seal the Dark One away again? What if the answer, the final answer, was something else? Something more permanent.

Yes, Rand thought to himself for the hundredth time. But is it possible?

 

Again to me, that doesn't sound like he doesn't have a plan. He has a worst-case scenario - redo the seals, gain another 3000 years, history strongly suggests that society will survive. Since he goes on to think that LTTs scenario hadn't worked, it then suggests to me that he has another two solutions. One that will remove the effect of the bore and one that may be a more permament solution. He doesn't know which to choose yet, no doubt the meeting tomorrow will help cement in his mind which it is. He doesn't know that Moiraine is on her way, but I'm sure that when she gets there she'll have valuable input.

 

Additionally Cads was with him when he told the Bordelanders that he was going to break the seals and didn't once think he was nuts, since the announcement wasn't a surprise she knew before the meeting, which meant that her 'pride' in him was with the knowledge of his plan.

 

In short it's easier to believe that Rand has a plan that is at least feasible, that in Chapter 1 he's worried about it, he's not going to know if it works or not until it's over than it is to believe that BS has written all those characters so badly - I know that there are ongoing debates about all this, but this level of change wouldn't pass editing (surely it wouldn't?).

 

As for the ret-conning with Eg, the research is believable, there was a meeting that we didn't have any info from. But regards the change in attitude from 'must not break the seals' to 'at the right time' is possibly explained by someone letting her know of the Borderland prophecy 'break what must be broken'. She'll have only learned that at the earliest between ToM and aMoL. I'm not saying that's what happened, but it's possible (I think - I'm not 100% sure of the length of time that they've been there - but if it's long enough for Rand to set AM to working on the weapons then it's long enough for the Borderland AS to find the new Amyrlin imo).

 

In terms of what Eg is thinking the plan is I'm not sure - Rand told her that he was going to SG to break the seals, which any reasonable assumption would think that Rand is going to fight the DO at the same time. Although for me this is the bit I'm least happy with, Eg has a history (and 3000 years of culture) of underestimating men, in Egs case particularly Rand, Perrin and Mat, so who knows?

 

EDIT: Now I feel bad for changing the tone, sorry guys

[Wool-headed lummox]

That didn’t mean he had all of the answers. Despite four hundred years of memories nestled in his brain, he still worried about what he had to do. Lews Therin hadn’t known how to seal the Bore. His attempt had led to disaster. The taint, the Breaking, all for an imperfect prison with seals that were now brittle.

One answer kept coming to Rand. A dangerous answer. One that Lews Therin hadn’t considered.

What if the answer wasn’t to seal the Dark One away again? What if the answer, the final answer, was something else? Something more permanent.

Yes, Rand thought to himself for the hundredth time. But is it possible?

This sounds like he's seriously considering the possibility that the Dark One needs to be killed off for good, instead of being sealed. Not that he knows how to do it, or whether it's even possible.

 

 

In ToM Min felt a 'cold shiver' at finding the answer. The day before it becomes necessary she's sleeping peacefully. Considering that she's not malicious or stupid it suggests that she's not worried, which suggests that she's already found the information that Rand needs.

That is an ultra-thin argument. It doesn't even say she's sleeping peacefully, just that she's sleeping. Min sleeping in her section doesn't tell us that Rand knows what he's doing. The very next chapter could be about her worrying that Rand is going to get himself killed.

 

In ToM Min felt a 'cold shiver' at finding the answer

What exactly are you referring to?

 

At the end of the day, even if Rand does know what he's doing, he tells absolutely nothing to Egwene. Since Egwene can't read the plot in advance, she's going to be confused and worried. That is, if I assume that Rand has an idea of how to seal away the Dark One, which I don't believe. I don't think he's going to get that idea before Moiraine catches up with him.

[Suttree]

In ToM Min felt a 'cold shiver' at finding the answer

What exactly are you referring to?

 

Interested to hear about this...

[thisguy]

Min doesn't have a plan, at least over 750 pages in ToM. Rand does walk into the WT and tell Egwene what he's going to do and where she can come to talk to him about it.

 

At that point, the only three people in the world to put any real thought into sealing the Bore are Rand/LTT (could be considered the preeminent expert in Bore Sealing and Bore Sealing Technology), Fel (dead), and Min. The one thing the three of them agree on is that the seals must be broken before the DO is resealed. The other thing everyon agrees on is that with or without help Rand's the main person to do this - in fact the only person.

 

Egwene needs to get off of her high horse.

[Amandera]

I'm not 100% sure of the length of time that they've been there - but if it's long enough for Rand to set AM to working on the weapons then it's long enough for the Borderland AS to find the new Amyrlin imo

Few hours.

Late-afternoon the same day as AMoL Chapter 1, she says: "Gawyn, he knows he shouldn't break those seals. A part of him does, at least. Perhaps that's why he told me—so I could gather resistance, so I could talk him out of it." Not exactly clear when Rand came with the Borderlanders, but it's that evening. That is how fast Egwene's thoughts changes from what they had been for the last month.

[BFG]

That didn’t mean he had all of the answers. Despite four hundred years of memories nestled in his brain, he still worried about what he had to do. Lews Therin hadn’t known how to seal the Bore. His attempt had led to disaster. The taint, the Breaking, all for an imperfect prison with seals that were now brittle.

One answer kept coming to Rand. A dangerous answer. One that Lews Therin hadn’t considered.

What if the answer wasn’t to seal the Dark One away again? What if the answer, the final answer, was something else? Something more permanent.

Yes, Rand thought to himself for the hundredth time. But is it possible?

This sounds like he's seriously considering the possibility that the Dark One needs to be killed off for good, instead of being sealed. Not that he knows how to do it, or whether it's even possible.

 

I agree that you have one interpretation, I think based on the other considerations (esp Cads) that mine is a valid interpretation to. Plus at this stage we have no reason to believe that Rand is going to act irrationaly, breaking the seals with no plan is irrational, therefore rationally he has a plan and BS is maintaining tension by not referring to it, not necessarily a device that I like, but one he's already used with Eg.

 

In ToM Min felt a 'cold shiver' at finding the answer. The day before it becomes necessary she's sleeping peacefully. Considering that she's not malicious or stupid it suggests that she's not worried, which suggests that she's already found the information that Rand needs.

That is an ultra-thin argument. It doesn't even say she's sleeping peacefully, just that she's sleeping. Min sleeping in her section doesn't tell us that Rand knows what he's doing. The very next chapter could be about her worrying that Rand is going to get himself killed.

 

In ToM Min felt a 'cold shiver' at finding the answer

What exactly are you referring to?

I'll take them together. In ToM Min is clearly worried, (cold shiver quote), by aMoL she's sleeping peacefully -

below from online dictionary:

 

slumber [ˈslʌmbə]

vb

1. (intr) to sleep, esp peacefully

2. (intr) to be quiescent or dormant

3. (tr; foll by away) to spend (time) sleeping

 

As I said this implies that she isn't worried, whereas she clearly has been before the (hypothetical) plan (that I'm assuning exists). As I also said, Cads isn't worried about it and we know that worst case scenario he can reseal the bore using LTT's method, so it's not that there is no plan, but he's trying to think through the ramifications of a better one

At the end of the day, even if Rand does know what he's doing, he tells absolutely nothing to Egwene. Since Egwene can't read the plot in advance, she's going to be confused and worried. That is, if I assume that Rand has an idea of how to seal away the Dark One, which I don't believe. I don't think he's going to get that idea before Moiraine catches up with him.

 

I'm not trying to argue that Eg is acting irrationally (I actually argued that Egs apparant change of viewpoint can be explained) - when I read your previous posts it sounded to me like you were commenting as a reader to his plan or lack there-of and so I was responding to say that as a reader there are indications that say he has a plan.