Egwene Vs Cadsuane

[zerachiel76]

This is one confrontation I can't wait to see due to the following:

• Egwene (admittedly a while ago) saw Sorilea as an irresistable force she had to work for.
  
• Cadsuane sees Sorilea as an equal (so I'm making the leap and assuming they're both equally irresistable)
  
• Therefore I think it's reasonably logical Egwene would see Cadsuane as another irresistable force she would have to work with (not for any more since she too has grown in stature).
  

I'm wondering if Caddy will have some influence on Egwene with regards to Rand and breaking the seals. I think if Egwene thinks she's going to treat Caddy like she treats most of the other Aes Sedai (let alone the non Aes Sedai) she will have a shock coming.

 

Equally however I think Caddy will have a shock coming since I think Egwene is possibly the person with the biggest backbone she will have met since Sorilea. Caddy has pretty much got Nynaeve where she wants her but I think she'll find Caddy a completely different proposition to deal with.

 

For that matter I think the tower itself is going to have a massive shock when Caddy returns since they view her as a living legend and her reputation will only grow when the story of her and Rand gets out.

 

Therefore a few questions:

1. Will Caddy and Egwene actually meet in AMOL?
   
2. How do you see the meeting going?
   
3. Will Caddy have some influence re the seals?
   
4. How will the reunited tower view Caddy and her return?
   
5. Can you think of any other good situations/circumstances you'd like to see Egwene and Caddy together in?
   

[thisguy]

They may meet but Cad is either going to die heroically or live and retire for real. She says that most of her life has been to gain the stature she needs to deal with the DR when the time comes and she's done that.

 

I some what think that after TG whoever is left from the AS won't be all that impressed by many people any longer.

 

However, I do not see Cad arguing with or pushing Egwene around during TG. If the thought even comes into her head, there will probably be a scene where Eg gives good orders or saves some people and Cad has an internal monologue about how she's got strength to her or something like that, etc.

[elric]

Cadd may consider Sureila an Equal, but i think Sureila is abit stronger.

 

remember it was Sureila who gave Cadsuan the key to breaking Semi. afrer sometime of cadsuan failing with Semy Sureila got a respond in few seconds.

 

the way i c it, its like that:

 

Sureila -> Cadsuan -> Amis -> Egwene/Morrain/notable wise one (beir/Milein...) /Siuan/lian -> Nyn/Elain /Avi -> Aas Sedai/ Wiseones

 

btw i dont think there be any confrontation between the 2.

Cadsuan will either work with Egwene or simply ignore her politely and do what she think need to be done.

Cadsuan ignore the WT so far why would she waste energy on fighting the current Emiralin (if she disapprove of Egwene which is a BIG if).

[fuzz1717]

Sureila -> Cadsuan -> Amis -> Egwene/Morrain/notable wise one (beir/Milein...) /Siuan/lian -> Nyn/Elain /Avi -> Aas Sedai/ Wiseones

Other than the spelling here, which makes my head hurt a bit, I agree for the most part, although I would elevate Egwene over Amys, Nyn/Elayne/Avi over Siuan and Leane. If we include other notable channelers, I think we can say that Alise (from the Kin) and the novice Sharina should both be fairly high up, maybe some of the Seafolk (but none come to mind off the top of my head).

[elric]

sorry about the spelling but i read WoT translated so it kind of refigure the name spelling by earing.

 

i was a bit torn about the 3rd 4th anf 5th ranking in the end i put Amys Over Egwene becouse Amys is beeing groomes to replace Sureila and is the only Wise one who can stand up to her.

i putted Siuan above Nyn becouse when they been in Salidar and approximly at the same Rank Siuan was the more controlling dominant one bending Nyn and Elaine to her need/desire

about Siuan and Egwene i put them on same level , becouse altough Egwene lord over Siuan i think it more due to rank rather then streangth of character.

 

thank you for reminding me about Alise shamefully i forgot about her, i think i will put Alise either at 4th with Ege/Mor... or 3rd with Amys.

she clearly lord ed over Nyn and Elayne during the travel, and even when she deal with Elayne after the coronation when Elayne was in the height of power and in her element and Alise was at an inferior position as a guest who need protection she stood her ground in the negotiation.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I don't think there will be a confrontation.

 

Cadsuane does what she always does - what she wants to. She will likely respect Egwene, but she is not really of the White Tower. She has officially retired (a few times) and most think her dead anyway.

 

She fully expects to die in or shortly after Tarmon Gaidon. Her sole focus is the Dragon Reborn. I mean, she has spanked Amyrlin's before. She will just ignore any possible conflicts with the Tower.

 

Finally, I just don't see a reason for there to be conflict between the two. It wouldn't serve a purpose, really, since I can't see any fruitful outcome. Cadsuane certainly won't be cowed by anyone, and I doubt she has any desire to teach Egwene anything. She will likely respect her for what she has achieved, then go on exactly how she planned to in the first place.

 

Egwene wouldn't likely be bothered to do anything either. She has too much to do to have a duel of wills with Cadsuane.

[Luckers]

I've suggested in the past that Cadsuane may serve to begin the Unswearing of the Oaths. The largest problem with that is of course that the Oaths are so wrapped up in the Aes Sedai's conceptualisation of self that they can't see past it, and yet Cadsuane is also what many regard as the perfect image of an Aes Sedai, and therefore if she foreswears the Oaths then you have right there an image to break through the stupidity--the perfect Aes Sedai lo and behold unbound and still exactly who she always was.

 

It may well allow sisters to begin to think about the Oaths in a less personal way. Cadsuane is also strong enough in herself to face the realities of the foolishness of the Oaths. She also stands as the perfect example to show Egwene why her 'retire into the Kin' idea is stupid as it will end with all the women with the most experienced being Kinswomen--many of whom will simply be terrible at walking small. AND she serves as a good example to test whether releasing the Oaths undoes the damage swearing them does.

 

All of which would create drama between her and Egwene, to get back on topic. As for looking forward to it. I do not.

[dwn]

I've suggested in the past that Cadsuane may serve to begin the Unswearing of the Oaths. The largest problem with that is of course that the Oaths are so wrapped up in the Aes Sedai's conceptualisation of self that they can't see past it, and yet Cadsuane is also what many regard as the perfect image of an Aes Sedai, and therefore if she foreswears the Oaths then you have right there an image to break through the stupidity--the perfect Aes Sedai lo and behold unbound and still exactly who she always was.

 

It may well allow sisters to begin to think about the Oaths in a less personal way. Cadsuane is also strong enough in herself to face the realities of the foolishness of the Oaths. She also stands as the perfect example to show Egwene why her 'retire into the Kin' idea is stupid as it will end with all the women with the most experienced being Kinswomen--many of whom will simply be terrible at walking small. AND she serves as a good example to test whether releasing the Oaths undoes the damage swearing them does.

 

All of which would create drama between her and Egwene, to get back on topic. As for looking forward to it. I do not.

 

Yeah, I've been waiting for this to come up ever since 1) it became clear that the Oath Rod shortened the life of anyone bound with it, and 2) every Aes Sedai we met was surprised that Cadsuane was still alive. I think Cadsuane would foreswear the oaths in a heartbeat if it meant living to help out at TG.

 

-- dwn

[FarShainMael]

Er.. remind me, if you would.. just how old is Cadsuane...?

 

Yes, I know she's quite old. I am just wondering if she ever swore the Oaths. (I don't think she's BA, though.)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Er.. remind me, if you would.. just how old is Cadsuane...?

 

Yes, I know she's quite old. I am just wondering if she ever swore the Oaths. (I don't think she's BA, though.)

 

Cadsuane was born in 705 NE

 

It is now, what? 1000 NE 1001? I can't remember.

 

Anyway, it makes her 295-296.

 

Note that Cadsuane has the ageless face of the Aes Sedai. She has sworn the Oaths.

 

 

I like the idea of Cadsuane being integral in abandoning the Oaths. I think it is a pointless practise, and I was confused/disappointed when Egwene suddenly decided she is their biggest advocate.

[FarShainMael]

Can you point me to the ref that says she has the ageless face? When she first meets Rand in ACoS18, she's described as 'strikingly handsome', with 'iron-grey' hair.

 

ETA: Hang on. Isn't the 'ageless face' just due to channelling, not the Oaths?

 

Some doubt about this:

 

http://steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.03_oath-rod.html

http://www.presskanne.com/theory/77

 

Elayne in ACoS24: "We slow, Nynaeve. Somewhere between twenty and twenty-five, we begin aging more slowly. How much depends on how strong we are, but when doesn't. Any woman who can channel does it. Takima said she thought it was the beginning of achieving the ageless look, though I don't think anyone has ever reached that until they've worn the shawl at least a year or two, sometimes five or more. Think. You know any sister with gray hair is old, even if you aren't supposed to mention it. So if Reanne slowed, and she must have, how old is she? "

[Mr Ares]

The Oath Rod causes the ageless face - that's why only AS who have sworn on the OR have it, while channelers of long standing who have not sworn never show agelessness. All channelers slow, but ageing more slowly is different to agelessness.

[FarShainMael]

Thanks for that!

[Barid Bel Medar]

INTERVIEW: Apr, 2003

Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)

 

QUESTION

Is it true that the Three Oaths is why Aes Sedai [mumble mumble] I thought it might be because, when you try to avoid the Three Oaths, you get a lot of dangerous situation [mumble mumble]...

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No...now you have to be careful with this, because this is a kind of spoiler for people that haven’t read far enough, but the Oath Rod is what was in the Age of Legends called a binder. It was used on criminals. If you committed a violent act, or some sort of criminal act, with a binder, someone who could channel could be constrained from ever doing that again, and the result of having three of the Oaths, is the ageless appearance. One would not produce agelessness, but even one would shorten life, and three of them put a cap on Aes Sedai’s lives, on how long they could live.

 

I don't have the direct quote, but she has the ageless face. It would be noticed if she didn't by someone, but Rand and everyone considers her to be Aes Sedai, which is mainly due to the ageless face. Any Aes Sedai without the ageless face is commented on.

 

The closest I can give you offhand is KoD chapter 11: Mat has a vision of Rand talking to an "Aes Sedai" (Cadsuane). Mat wouldn't know it was an Aes Sedai unless she had the ageless face.

[zerachiel76]

Thanks for the responses everyone, I still have an inkling that Caddy may have bearing on Rand and Egwene's disagreement re breaking the seals, but I don't know why. It's a gut feeling thing and therefore most probably wrong. I would like the 2 to meet, if only for the scene similar to that when Sorilea and Caddy meet and there is the mutual respect.

 

I think Caddy could go someway to showing Egwene how an Aes Sedai can work with an Asha'man from a position of strength without anyone having to bond anyone else which I don't think will happen for much longer unless it's a mutual bonding thing. Egwene and most of the Aes Sedai still have a long way to go in having to rearrange their opinions and levels of respect towards the Asha'man but Caddy could help out here if she survives.

 

Beyond Tarmon Gaidon I can't see Asha'man accepting an inferior position to that of their female equivalent as they know their own strengths and since Saidin is now clean they know they won't go mad and thus don't have to fear death any more than an Aes Sedai. I know this is a point of disagreement amongst us here on Dragonmount, however despite reading the arguments against it and reading the books themselves talking about mutual respect; I will not accept that a warder a) is anything else b) is seen as anything else or c) is treated as anything else other than an inferior to their Aes Sedai (or an inferior to their Asha'man in the case of the bonded sisters). I see male warders as simply bodyguards with a few extra abilities thrown in - like hired muscle and I don't have a clue what female warders other than Birgitte are.

 

In response to Luckers comments on Egwene's idea re the Kin, I agree it does seem like a misguided idea, although I do look forward to them discussing it, if it will ever happen.

 

In response to Barid Bel Madar's comments about Caddy not wanting to teach Egwene anything, I think that there are quite a few things Caddy could and possibly would want to teach Egwene should she (Caddy) survive Tarmon Gaidon. After all she saw the potential in Nynaeve and I think it's generally accepted that Egwene has even more potential than Nynaeve and thus there are things Caddy could teach her. She hasn't lived all these years without picking up some skills which could be useful to the person who's got the potential to be the most effective Amyrlin ever according to Suiane (I think, sorry if it was someone else or I'm misquoting).

 

I'm too tired to think of any examples at this precise moment (00.23 here UK time) but I'll see if there's anything pop into my head tomorrow.

[Durinax]

Zerachiel: Nyn has always been thought of as having more OP potential.

Or do you mean in random skills?

[zerachiel76]

@ Durinax - I'm not sure Caddy meant either (although you're correct in what you say). I think Caddy meant Nynaeve had potential as a truly effective Aes Sedai who;s not afraid to break the rules like she did. I think that Caddy would see that Egwene has this same potential as she's looking to change so much in order to improve the Aes Sedai and White Tower and I'm sure Caddy would have some advice or ideas on how they could be improved.