Demandred is overrated

[Amandera]

Considering the hype that's been built for years, it might be impossible for me to express my opinion on the matter without starting a crapstorm but I'd like to point out beforehand that that is not my intention. But I have serious doubts how good a general can Demandred possibly be.

 

It's pretty certain he had an excellent mind for tactics and planning. He also very quickly picks up on warfare from and rises to second-in-command in the War of the Shadow. He runs quite successful campaigns before and after he turns to Shadow. Here is the thing though, he learns how to fight from books and participates in only one war. It's a planet-wide war and quite a long one, but still his only experience is one war no matter how adaptable and smart he is.

 

On the other hand we have four great captains, men who have been taught warfare in childhood then spent their entire lives warring, who lived in an age that's marked entirely with strife and war. And then there is Mat, who didn't just live in an age of war and chaos but who lived one. Memories of hundreds, if not thousands, of battles against hundreds of different generals and from the viewpoints of hundreds of different generals. Can anyone compare to that kind of experience?

 

There is also the fact that Demandred is in those generals' turf now. His only experience of warfare is from a different age with entirely different weapons. Now he is reduced to Middle Age weaponry. No shocklances, but bows, swords, spears et cetera. If he is Roedran, and I believe he is, Talmanes claims he has Madoc Comadrin's book memorized, whom Mat credits as knowing "everything there is to know about the trade". Well, that fits with Demandred, he also prepared himself from history discovering long lost tactics in AoL. But still he has no real experience while Light's top general Mat essentially fought against the man.

 

So, what I'm saying is while Demandred is a good commander as advertised but in battlefield expertise the scale tips considerably in Light's favor. Demandred is the only military commander among the Forsaken and while there'll obviously be a division of the workload, I sure as hell don't think that the Forsaken will let anyone below them take command of the Shadow's troops over them. Moghedien taking command of any army? Just ridiculuous in my opinion.

 

That's what I think. Am I wrong?

[lolguy26]

i never thought of it that way, but a good general always knows to adapt, and with inside knowledge of the light troops(dark friends), he has an advantage there...

[Luckers]

I have concerns over how Demandred can possibly be handled given the hype that's built up around him.

[randsc]

I guess I see it another way. The Foresaken, as a group, have been so inept and disappointing that Demandred and/or Moridin don't need to BE epic to SEEM epic. They just need to be somewhat competent.

[dwn]

It's a bit like the "secret" of Asmodean's killer. In the end, the whole mystery surrounding it served no purpose. I hope Demandred's reveal doesn't turn out like that, but I agree it's looking unlikely.

 

At the very least the whole LoC balefire thing had better be explained.

 

-- dwn

[Amandera]

@lolguy26 Well, you're quite right of course.

 

We saw Ituralde going from defending fortifications to guerilla war in under an hour. Bashere adapts Legion of the Dragon according to Mat's advice very quickly even though he was in appearance a 21-year-old farmboy with little reputation and Bashere is a life-long soldier recognized by all of Randland. We haven't seen much of Jagad and Bryne so far but it's strongly implied they are very capable. Min comments on how adaptable Aiel are, and the Aiel are as ferocious as Trollocs with the discipline to match best of armies.

 

And there is Mat whom I see as the ultimate commander.

 

 

In what has been revealed so far the only advantage Shadow has is information. Well, the Light can match that pretty quickly in a world with Travelling so long as Rand achieves unity. Numbers of Samma N'Sei and turned/DF Asha'man remain to be seen, Black Ajah should have 150 or so members. WT should have around 2000 initiates with around 600 of them full Aes Sedai. Each Aiel clan should have about 200 channeler Wise Ones considering what Shaido had, so that makes about 2000 in their case too. Add windfinders to that, and whatever Asha'man remain after the upcoming battle in Black Tower. Plus the damane Seanchan have assuming Mat manages a reconciliation with Tuon and Rand, and takes command of the Seanchan army. I mentioned channelers because they are the ultimate weapon in WoT world, ie Rand killing a 100.000 shadowspawn by himself in Maradon.

 

Suffice it to say, there has to be big surprises on Shadow's part at the beginnings of the final book because at the moment Light has seemingly a huge advantage. Unless some huge stupidity of Rand's and Egwene's can bungle the job, and that seems unlikely because they seem to have grown up and become capable, they are pretty likely to win the war. Seemingly.

 

 

By the way, Shadowspawn suck except for Myrddraal in my opinion.

[Mik]

That's what I think. Am I wrong?

Overall, I think you are more right then wrong.

 

Considering the hype that's been built for years, it might be impossible for me to express my opinion on the matter without starting a crapstorm but I'd like to point out beforehand that that is not my intention. But I have serious doubts how good a general can Demandred possibly be.

 

It's pretty certain he had an excellent mind for tactics and planning. He also very quickly picks up on warfare from and rises to second-in-command in the War of the Shadow. He runs quite successful campaigns before and after he turns to Shadow. Here is the thing though, he learns how to fight from books and participates in only one war. It's a planet-wide war and quite a long one, but still his only experience is one war no matter how adaptable and smart he is.

I agree with this somewhat. What I think is important to take out of this and where I tend to agree with you, is how we've seen Demandred operate, is that he is 'fast in picking things up others have come up with'. Look at his thoughts on when he arrives at the Cleansing-scene. It's the story of his life; to be second.

 

Just because the WoS is 'one war', doesn't mean it didn't evolve during it's "lifetime".... Demandred / Barid Bel Medar has fought numerous battles on both sides of the board, over a long period of time. The key-ingredients didn't chance that much...and if they changed, they made battle more simple for the likes of Demandred. So, while I disagree with you on the worth of his skills in the Last Battle, I do think that it's very important to note that he appears to be the guy who 'counters' or 'quickly notices what others come up with', but never see him come up with his own brilliant plans.

 

On the other hand we have four great captains, men who have been taught warfare in childhood then spent their entire lives warring, who lived in an age that's marked entirely with strife and war. And then there is Mat, who didn't just live in an age of war and chaos but who lived one. Memories of hundreds, if not thousands, of battles against hundreds of different generals and from the viewpoints of hundreds of different generals. Can anyone compare to that kind of experience?

We know for sure there has been messed with one Great Captain. Who's to say that one or more of those Great Captains will do a 'Medar' and will turn out to be a general on the opposing team? :)

What if a Great Captain like Bashere will turn out to be a Friend of the Dark...? :)

You're right about Mat though; nothing beats his insane battle knowledge, combined with his quick wits to come up with the right solution (something Demandred seems to lack), his own battle prowess and his (unfair but insane) luck?

 

There is also the fact that Demandred is in those generals' turf now. His only experience of warfare is from a different age with entirely different weapons. Now he is reduced to Middle Age weaponry.

He's been out and about for books now. He can Travel. It's easier for him to know the grounds well, then it is for another general without that keen one-power sight and without travelling. The weaponry -overall- got less sophisticated, so it's unarguably easier to 'manage' those battles in my book (compare it to a chess-master that has to play chess with less -all known- pieces... that's way easier then a chess-master having to play with totally new and more complex moving pieces). I disagree this is a disadvatage for Demandred. I'm sure he'd like more toys..-true-... but to say it would hamper his skills, compared to other generals, I think is folly.

 

No shocklances, but bows, swords, spears et cetera.

We're not sure what he has up his sleeve.

 

If he is Roedran, and I believe he is, Talmanes claims he has Madoc Comadrin's book memorized, whom Mat credits as knowing "everything there is to know about the trade". Well, that fits with Demandred, he also prepared himself from history discovering long lost tactics in AoL. But still he has no real experience while Light's top general Mat essentially fought against the man.

All true. Still, Demandred reading up on tactics he's unlikely to come up with himself -given the way RJ presents his character- only makes him a more dangerous General. Fact remains; most -if not all- pieces on the board got less dangerous and slower in comparison with the WoS.

 

So, what I'm saying is while Demandred is a good commander as advertised but in battlefield expertise the scale tips considerably in Light's favor. Demandred is the only military commander among the Forsaken and while there'll obviously be a division of the workload, I sure as hell don't think that the Forsaken will let anyone below them take command of the Shadow's troops over them. Moghedien taking command of any army? Just ridiculuous in my opinion.

Couldn't agree more on the bolded part. It's almost like Moridin / RJ is setting Demandred up for the fall. Were I a general, I'd have politely thanked for the offer of having a coward who prefers to work from the shadow to lead an army.

[bigdoug1971]

I'll hold judgement on the 'over-rated' part until I see what he does. But I do agree that after all these books and never seeing him do anything but go to Shayol Ghul twice and join in a meeting with Forsaken twice, he will have to do something incredible to impress me. Especially when all of the other Forsaken have been so unimpressive to begin with. All of the Forsaken seem to have benefited more from reputation of their deeds in the past than doing anything that matters in todays world.

 

And somebody else said that all shadowspawn suck except for Myrdrall......I think that's pretty accurate too.

[MasterAblar]

We still cannot be certain how long passed between the creation of the Bore and the actual beginning of what would come to be called the War of the Shadow, yet plainly at least fifty years and possibly more than one hundred were marked by a rapid decline in the social order and an equally rapid increase in a thousand ills that previously had been either rare or entirely unknown. War itself was a "new" discovery, it seems, though one quickly learned, some might even say perfected.

 

So Demandred learned the art of warfare in a age where it was supposedly perfected, and became one of the greatest generals of the time, rivaled only by LTT and Sammael. Also the War of the Shadow may have lasted only 9 years but nothing says there was not already armed conflict of some sort during the Fall. And it's not like there has not been great young military commanders in our own history. Look how fast men such as Alexander the Great or Napoleon rose to power.

 

Lastly while the War of the Power was first fought with advanced weapon, the destruction caused by it soon had them using far more basic weapons like swords and bows, so it's not like he has no experience with them either. Furthermore Demandred is a real danger because he's been doing nothing but getting ready for like 10 books, a commodity the Great Captains and Mat have not enjoyed.

[Terez]

Considering the hype that's been built for years, it might be impossible for me to express my opinion on the matter without starting a crapstorm...

 

With a title like the one you chose, I don't think you were trying to avoid it very much. But fortunately no one gets really passionate about Demandred, unlike certain other characters.

 

Also, no one said Moghedien was being put in charge of an army. She's monitoring one, which is different, and might well refer to a Lightside army.

[Amandera]

I agree with this somewhat. What I think is important to take out of this and where I tend to agree with you, is how we've seen Demandred operate, is that he is 'fast in picking things up others have come up with'. Look at his thoughts on when he arrives at the Cleansing-scene. It's the story of his life; to be second.

 

Just because the WoS is 'one war', doesn't mean it didn't evolve during it's "lifetime".... Demandred / Barid Bel Medar has fought numerous battles on both sides of the board, over a long period of time. The key-ingredients didn't chance that much...and if they changed, they made battle more simple for the likes of Demandred. So, while I disagree with you on the worth of his skills in the Last Battle, I do think that it's very important to note that he appears to be the guy who 'counters' or 'quickly notices what others come up with', but never see him come up with his own brilliant plans.

I didn't mean to imply Demandred is incompetent. In fact he is definitely competent, every Forsaken is a useful tool for DO and competent in their own way. Demandred has the excellent mind and character for a field general. But he learned the art of war, well the Third Age generals have 3000 years to perfect it (or 1000 if we consider the amount of knowledge lost in Trolloc Wars and War of Hundred Years). Can Demandred match that in two years spent entirely in training and gathering armies? I don't think so.

 

We know for sure there has been messed with one Great Captain. Who's to say that one or more of those Great Captains will do a 'Medar' and will turn out to be a general on the opposing team? :)

What if a Great Captain like Bashere will turn out to be a Friend of the Dark...? :)

You're right about Mat though; nothing beats his insane battle knowledge, combined with his quick wits to come up with the right solution (something Demandred seems to lack), his own battle prowess and his (unfair but insane) luck?

It's possible of course but unlikely I think. Remember Rand in Stone where he finds out Weiramon and Anaiyella are DF. Remember also Torkumens in Maradon. It's clear DFs cannot make direct eye contact with Rand, for whatever reason (maybe Masema was right and he is Light made flesh? LOL). That rules out Bashere and Ituralde, unless they decide to turn in the last book of course but I really haven't seen any signs of it. Bryne is Siuan's Warder and has been a supporter for Egwene from the near beginning. So I doubt he'll turn either. That leaves Jagad, anything is possible of course.

 

Still the question remains, would a Forsaken listen to the opinions of a DF beneath him? Definitely not. So Demandred will end up with the ultimate command of the Shadow's forces I think.

 

He's been out and about for books now. He can Travel. It's easier for him to know the grounds well, then it is for another general without that keen one-power sight and without travelling. The weaponry -overall- got less sophisticated, so it's unarguably easier to 'manage' those battles in my book (compare it to a chess-master that has to play chess with less -all known- pieces... that's way easier then a chess-master having to play with totally new and more complex moving pieces). I disagree this is a disadvatage for Demandred. I'm sure he'd like more toys..-true-... but to say it would hamper his skills, compared to other generals, I think is folly.

Well yes, he should have picked it up quite nicely by now. I have to agree with this. Still Third Age generals will be natural with those weapons and their potentials. We'll have to see if this gives anybody any advantage.

 

We're not sure what he has up his sleeve.

True. But I don't think it will be weaponry at the level of AoL in a large scale. He should be able to counter dragons quite easily though.

[MasterAblar]

Considering the hype that's been built for years, it might be impossible for me to express my opinion on the matter without starting a crapstorm...

 

With a title like the one you chose, I don't think you were trying to avoid it very much. But fortunately no one gets really passionate about Demandred, unlike certain other characters.

 

Well... *looks expectantly at Barid Bel Medar*

[Terez]

BBM is too mild to count; he doesn't really get fired up about much. :p

[Amandera]

Considering the hype that's been built for years, it might be impossible for me to express my opinion on the matter without starting a crapstorm...

 

With a title like the one you chose, I don't think you were trying to avoid it very much. But fortunately no one gets really passionate about Demandred, unlike certain other characters.

 

Also, no one said Moghedien was being put in charge of an army. She's monitoring one, which is different, and might well refer to a Lightside army.

I'm sorry about the title then. I could change it if it isn't appropriate, but all in all it's the summary of my thoughts. I don't think he'll turn out all he is made out to be and if he does it won't be a result that I will like.

 

About Moghedien, yes maybe. It was my deduction from the exchange with Moridin that she was given charge of the Black Ajah. Mesaana had the control of it mostly, and with her out of the picture I figured that was the said army. It seemed plausible the last surviving member of the Demandred-Semirhage-Mesaana pact would get that group. It also seemed likely an army of female channelers would warrant a female channeler as a leader. These are all assumptions of course, and liable to be incorrect.

[MasterAblar]

BBM is too mild to count; he doesn't really get fired up about much. :p

 

Yeah that's true I've never really seen him get fired up. Except maybe once when he seemed to be sick of the whole "Egwene sucks!" "Egwene's awesome!!" debate. Can't really fault him for that though. Everyone's been there.

 

About Moghedien, yes maybe. It was my deduction from the exchange with Moridin that she was given charge of the Black Ajah. Mesaana had the control of it mostly, and with her out of the picture I figured that was the said army. It seemed plausible the last surviving member of the Demandred-Semirhage-Mesaana pact would get that group. It also seemed likely an army of female channelers would warrant a female channeler as a leader. These are all assumptions of course, and liable to be incorrect.

 

I like it. It fits her role as the Spider.

[MarkDiLillo]

I think Demandred would have been something mighty if written by RJ. I suspect he will fall flat with the current authors writing style - much like other scenes that should have been memorable fell flat. Not even trying to be overly negative here, but a lot of the scenes that I feel should have been really big ones seem to read very matter of factly to me. Chapter 1 scene should have been a momentous scene for example...the good guys just found out that Caemlyn was wiped out and everyone just takes it in stride as if its no big deal. Very little emotion or writing to invoke emotion in the readers.

 

I am very concerned that major parts of the book that should be read in a way to raise the hair on the back of your neck will instead read just as matter of factly as chapter 1. I can only hope that's not the case.

[Suttree]

So Demandred learned the art of warfare in a age where it was supposedly perfected, and became one of the greatest generals of the time, rivaled only by LTT and Sammael. t have not enjoyed.

 

Wasn't it said the warfare reached its pinnacle during the Trolloc Wars?

[MasterAblar]

So Demandred learned the art of warfare in a age where it was supposedly perfected, and became one of the greatest generals of the time, rivaled only by LTT and Sammael. t have not enjoyed.

 

Wasn't it said the warfare reached its pinnacle during the Trolloc Wars?

 

We still cannot be certain how long passed between the creation of the Bore and the actual beginning of what would come to be called the War of the Shadow, yet plainly at least fifty years and possibly more than one hundred were marked by a rapid decline in the social order and an equally rapid increase in a thousand ills that previously had been either rare or entirely unknown. War itself was a "new" discovery, it seems, though one quickly learned, some might even say perfected.

 

Of course, maybe they reached perfection again during the Trolloc Wars. But perfection becomes rather boring then doesn't it?

[Neophyte]

So Demandred learned the art of warfare in a age where it was supposedly perfected, and became one of the greatest generals of the time, rivaled only by LTT and Sammael. t have not enjoyed.

 

Wasn't it said the warfare reached its pinnacle during the Trolloc Wars?

 

It has indeed been said, although Demandred will be expert in one aspect of warfare which not perfected in the Trolloc Wars - channeling the One Power.

 

I guess I tend to write off statements like "warfare was perfected in such and such a place and time." Warfare is constantly changing - the lessons of the Trolloc Wars won't necessarily apply to the current conflict. Ditto the War of the Shadow. If Demandred the kind of general I'm hoping for, he's not going to be busy fighting the last war, so to speak.

 

(I thought about making a Last Battle pun there, but restrained myself. You're welcome.)

 

Anyhow, in a more general way, I do think that Demandred can't live up to the hype. He's basically been completely reserved for this last book, and we can be fairly sure he isn't going to win. That means that his one real shot will fail. The only question is, can it be written so that he fails reasonably as a valid threat, or will his defeat have to be relegated to either deus ex machina-style ta'verenism or out and out plotkai.

[MasterAblar]

(I thought about making a Last Battle pun there, but restrained myself. You're welcome.)

 

Thank you.

 

Anyhow, in a more general way,

 

*Headesk*

 

I do think that Demandred can't live up to the hype. He's basically been completely reserved for this last book, and we can be fairly sure he isn't going to win. That means that his one real shot will fail. The only question is, can it be written so that he fails reasonably as a valid threat, or will his defeat have to be relegated to either deus ex machina-style ta'verenism or out and out plotkai.

 

I don't expect him to succeed no but I do hope he'll cause a huge amount of destruction, and generally (you may insult me) make things very bad for the Light. Caemlyn is a good start.

[Neophyte]

Anyhow, in a more general way,

 

*Headesk*

 

There's your subtlety, Sid. How's it taste?

[Mik]

Anyhow, in a more general way,

 

*Headesk*

 

There's your subtlety, Sid. How's it taste?

Bwahaha!

That right there, is wrong in so many ways..I demand retribution!

[Neophyte]

Anyhow, in a more general way,

 

*Headesk*

 

There's your subtlety, Sid. How's it taste?

Bwahaha!

That right there, is wrong in so many ways..I demand retribution!

 

You demand re[d]ribution, eh?

 

Too much?

[MasterAblar]

Anyhow, in a more general way,

 

*Headesk*

 

There's your subtlety, Sid. How's it taste?

Bwahaha!

That right there, is wrong in so many ways..I demand retribution!

 

You demand re[d]ribution, eh?

 

Too much?

 

You are too far gone. Redemption is now beyond you.

[Neophyte]

So - Demandred, overrated? Probably, but we can hope he gets close. Even getting close would still make a very good story.